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I always deactivate geolocation and I assume and hope it doesn't phone home to Google in that case. I still deactivate network if I don't need it. Android devic

I always deactivate geolocation and I assume and hope it doesn't phone home to Google in that case. I still deactivate network if I don't need it. Android devices cannot really be trusted and it seems to be getting worse. Of course I am not using contact tracing either in this case, but I certainly won't allow Google to trace my location.

maxmunzel 6y ago
If I understand it correctly, contact tracing should rely on bluetooth only. Does it require location services and/or network on Android?
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Sadly yes. It is probably a software component problem that bluetooth is bundled with location services, but without the separation from GPS, I have serious concerns about privacy, even if I think that I only use well behaved apps.
  - Phemist 6y ago
    Bluetooth and location services being bundled is a policy decision by Google. If one has a database filled with historical correlations between bluetooth devices "in range" and GPS coordinates, it is possible to get a pretty accurate fix on someone's location from the current devices that are in range. This is the reason why Google has bundled Bluetooth and GPS in one permission. Of course, the very fact that these permissions are bundled is the reason why it's feasible to keep such databases up-to-date, and why up-to-date databases provide a continuously stronger case why Bluetooth should be considered a type of location permission.. It would be totally possible to separate location permissions between "passive" location (e.g. triangulation through received GPS coordinates), and "active" location, e.g. inference of location through indirect measures and correlations with historical databases. Afaik it's now a system-wide setting to disallow said correlations, but offering app developers more fine-grained control would be better for all of us. Why does, for example, my Sony Bluetooth headset need my location just for updating some firmware..
    - fomine3 6y ago
      It's practical and also Apple does, but it's confusing for most users. I wish both platform explaining why it's bundled on the screen. Maybe create a permission only able to connect specific OUI would be a solution?
- proactivesvcs 6y ago
  I believe that with the latest version of Android, and on supporting handsets, only Bluetooth is needed. Fraid I can't recall where I read it.
- jdofaz 6y ago
  On a Pixel 4 with android 11 I was able to run the covid contact tracing app without location services. If I turn off bluetooth a notification appears that says exposure notifications is inactive until bluetooth is turned back on.
m0guz 6y ago
Even if you disable geolocation, Google can learn your location via Wifi/Access points nearby easily. It should be easy to cross references you (geolocation disabled) and others (one of them enabled geolocation) in the same network for Google. > Google retains a detailed map of known Wi-Fi networks and access points. By knowing the exact location of these networks, and your proximity to them, its location services can gauge your location with roughly 30 feet of accuracy. [0] [0] https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/how-google-uses-wi-fi-networks-to-figure-out-your-exact-location.html https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/how-google-uses-wi-fi-n...
- godelski 6y ago
  It should be noted that by using WiFi (or Bluetooth) triangulation you can actually get much higher location accuracy, like a foot or two 30 feet sounds like cell tower triangulation.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    Using cell tower and wifi location actually made my location much less accurate when I was living in SF. Rideshares would pull up to the wrong side of the street where the cell tower was, and immediately get kicked out and ditch me because it was a high use bus stop. When driving myself I would pop several streets over every time a new office tower came into line of sight. When near the beach, my location would fix to some cafe half a mile away with its wifi power up too high.
- uCantCauseUCant 6y ago
  They could have surrendered that info, and helped tracing covid infected persons, but that would risk there monopoly for lives, so bad business strategy.
bassman9000 6y ago
I assume and hope It's sad we got the the point the customers are afraid their devices are selling them this badly, because you can't even tell if your settings have the effect you think they should have.
- jmnicolas 6y ago
  I installed GrapheneOS a few weeks ago. The first thing I said to someone that asked about it is "for the first time my phone isn't my enemy". OK the second thing was "but I can't do almost anything with it :D "
  - bassman9000 6y ago
    Many people would be fine with the trade-off _if they knew they have to/they could take it_. Google and the likes have made it very difficult for you to be even aware that was an option.
    - jmnicolas 6y ago
      I don't agree. The information is there, even the YouTube algorithm (the last part of my life that isn't deggogled) is recommending me degoogling videos! People just don't care enough, even among my fellow geeks I had to "battle" to get them to install Signal because I couldn't use WhatsApp anymore. We are bombarded with news about revolting situations and at one point there's so much outrage one can take. So the Evil Big tech spying is very low on the list of most people especially since they don't see the damage.

maxmunzel 6y ago

If I understand it correctly, contact tracing should rely on bluetooth only. Does it require location services and/or network on Android?

raxxorrax 6y ago
Sadly yes. It is probably a software component problem that bluetooth is bundled with location services, but without the separation from GPS, I have serious concerns about privacy, even if I think that I only use well behaved apps.
- Phemist 6y ago
  Bluetooth and location services being bundled is a policy decision by Google. If one has a database filled with historical correlations between bluetooth devices "in range" and GPS coordinates, it is possible to get a pretty accurate fix on someone's location from the current devices that are in range. This is the reason why Google has bundled Bluetooth and GPS in one permission. Of course, the very fact that these permissions are bundled is the reason why it's feasible to keep such databases up-to-date, and why up-to-date databases provide a continuously stronger case why Bluetooth should be considered a type of location permission.. It would be totally possible to separate location permissions between "passive" location (e.g. triangulation through received GPS coordinates), and "active" location, e.g. inference of location through indirect measures and correlations with historical databases. Afaik it's now a system-wide setting to disallow said correlations, but offering app developers more fine-grained control would be better for all of us. Why does, for example, my Sony Bluetooth headset need my location just for updating some firmware..
  - fomine3 6y ago
    It's practical and also Apple does, but it's confusing for most users. I wish both platform explaining why it's bundled on the screen. Maybe create a permission only able to connect specific OUI would be a solution?
proactivesvcs 6y ago
I believe that with the latest version of Android, and on supporting handsets, only Bluetooth is needed. Fraid I can't recall where I read it.
jdofaz 6y ago
On a Pixel 4 with android 11 I was able to run the covid contact tracing app without location services. If I turn off bluetooth a notification appears that says exposure notifications is inactive until bluetooth is turned back on.

m0guz 6y ago

Even if you disable geolocation, Google can learn your location via Wifi/Access points nearby easily. It should be easy to cross references you (geolocation disabled) and others (one of them enabled geolocation) in the same network for Google. > Google retains a detailed map of known Wi-Fi networks and access points. By knowing the exact location of these networks, and your proximity to them, its location services can gauge your location with roughly 30 feet of accuracy. [0] [0] https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/how-google-uses-wi-fi-networks-to-figure-out-your-exact-location.html https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/how-google-uses-wi-fi-n...

godelski 6y ago
It should be noted that by using WiFi (or Bluetooth) triangulation you can actually get much higher location accuracy, like a foot or two 30 feet sounds like cell tower triangulation.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Using cell tower and wifi location actually made my location much less accurate when I was living in SF. Rideshares would pull up to the wrong side of the street where the cell tower was, and immediately get kicked out and ditch me because it was a high use bus stop. When driving myself I would pop several streets over every time a new office tower came into line of sight. When near the beach, my location would fix to some cafe half a mile away with its wifi power up too high.
uCantCauseUCant 6y ago
They could have surrendered that info, and helped tracing covid infected persons, but that would risk there monopoly for lives, so bad business strategy.

bassman9000 6y ago

I assume and hope It's sad we got the the point the customers are afraid their devices are selling them this badly, because you can't even tell if your settings have the effect you think they should have.

jmnicolas 6y ago
I installed GrapheneOS a few weeks ago. The first thing I said to someone that asked about it is "for the first time my phone isn't my enemy". OK the second thing was "but I can't do almost anything with it :D "
- bassman9000 6y ago
  Many people would be fine with the trade-off _if they knew they have to/they could take it_. Google and the likes have made it very difficult for you to be even aware that was an option.
  - jmnicolas 6y ago
    I don't agree. The information is there, even the YouTube algorithm (the last part of my life that isn't deggogled) is recommending me degoogling videos! People just don't care enough, even among my fellow geeks I had to "battle" to get them to install Signal because I couldn't use WhatsApp anymore. We are bombarded with news about revolting situations and at one point there's so much outrage one can take. So the Evil Big tech spying is very low on the list of most people especially since they don't see the damage.