7 ms·

TripAdvisor warns users over Thai hotel that legally pursued reviewer

63 points by pionerkotik 6y ago

dkdk8283 6y ago
Chilling effect. Imagine where the US is headed with online censorship and cancel culture. If you publicly disagree with controversial views you’re in for a bad time.
- pavel_lishin 6y ago
  Yes, claiming that women are bad at engineering and being thought of as a shithead is definitely equivalent to spending time in a Thai jail cell.
  - dkdk8283 6y ago
    That’s a quick and strong reaction. Do you have a problem with women in tech? If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. I’m anti lockdown too. I get ostracized every time I bring it up.
    - qppo 6y ago
      Maybe that deserves some reflection rather than dismissing it as "cancel culture."
    - pavel_lishin 6y ago
      > That’s a quick and strong reaction. Do you have a problem with women in tech? No, I was making a reference to people like James Damore, who seem to. > If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. I’m anti lockdown too. I get ostracized every time I bring it up. I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon, but I'd love to hear what alternatives you have to getting a handle on the global pandemic that's killed 200k Americans and over a million people world-wide. (Preferably without making references to "herd immunity", which has been shown to not be effective, or comparing it to other causes of death, which are at best orthogonal to the issue at hand.)
    - EliRivers 6y ago
      If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. On the face of it, that's an interesting position to take. We know someone has a communicable disease that kills, we wonder if people he's been in contact with might also have it and might also be spreading it and dying of it; finding out seems like quite a sensible idea. What's the objection?
      - jagsbdjdksj 6y ago
        Let's make contact tracing mandatory for AIDS also. Is that OK by you?
      - CodeWriter23 6y ago
        Perhaps put the "kills" in the proper context of 240,000 / 350,000,000 and then evaluate the relative risk vs. sacrificing one's privacy.
        tw04 6y ago
        >Perhaps put the "kills" in the proper context of 240,000 / 350,000,000 and then evaluate the relative risk vs. sacrificing one's privacy. Those are some pretty horrible numbers you're attempting to use. 350m people haven't been infected, so it's nowhere close to 240k/350m. It's closer to 240k/10m. As for privacy: if we were told we'd need to be permanently tracked from now until the end of time, I think just about everyone would agree with you (at least on HN) that it's just not a sacrifice worth making. But NOBODY is saying that, they're saying: how about we use this tool until a vaccine is ready - which is a far more reasonable ask.
        CodeWriter23 6y ago
        My factual numbers aren’t “bad” simply because you choose a different perspective. Notice how I am respectful of your position despite your attempts to bully me into joining some concept of unanimous consent you have contrived here. The reality is, very strong correlation of Vitamin D deficiency to hospitalization and death. But I’m not here telling you to be reasonable and dose Vitamin D to protect yourself and take responsibility for your own health. Bottom line though, I go to work and I go home. Contact tracing the old fashioned way is 100% sufficient for me. If you want to engage risky behavior that’s on you. I have no obligation to have my every movement tracked because of your exercise of free will.
    - aplummer 6y ago
      > If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. I’m anti lockdown too. I get ostracized every time I bring it up. You should be. You are talking about millions of peoples lives here. The fallacies that create these opinions like the proven false economy vs health narrative are utterly misguided delusions.
      - dkdk8283 6y ago
        I have the right to say and think as I want. Just like you. The difference is I won’t browbeat you for your opinion.
        fairity 6y ago
        Yes, you have that right. And, the community has the right to downvote you to oblivion. It seems like you'd rather they not, so I'd recommend putting forth a well-structured argument to support your claims.
        dkdk8283 6y ago
        Let the downvotes pour. It’s the offline consequences that I have a problem with. In this case there aren’t any.
      - ryanlol 6y ago
        On the other we might as well view every year spent locked down as a year wasted. So with an average life expectancy of 80 years you’d be throwing away an entire lifetime for every 80 people you lock down. That’s a 1.23% death rate, it’s not yet clear that COVID is worse.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        nulld3v 6y ago
        That's essentially equating being in lockdown to being temporarily dead, which in my opinion is an exaggeration.
    - tw04 6y ago
      >If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. I’m anti lockdown too. I get ostracized every time I bring it up. Generally speaking, when you're pro something that provably kills innocent people, just because the alternative is inconvenient for you personally, you're going to get ostracized. "I'm for drunk-driving because I don't like paying or waiting for Ubers and I drive a big truck so I'll be OK" - also going to get you ostracized. Has almost nothing to do with "cancel culture" and everything to do with: show some basic respect to your fellow human beings.
      - seibelj 6y ago
        It’s more complicated than this. Covid is barely worse than the average flu for healthy young people, yet even those with no contact with at-risk groups must still disrupt their lives for seemingly no reason. IMO this is unfair to them and also prevents herd immunity from developing. Furthermore outbreaks are happening in places even with more strict protocols. Overall I think the damage from the reaction to the pandemic is worse than the disease itself.
        evgen 6y ago
        > It’s more complicated than this. No, it really isn't. You are just trying to pretend it is because the current solutions do not fit your particular worldview or cause you some temporary inconvenience. > Covid is barely worse than the average flu for healthy young people, Not true. We are really starting to understand the long-term consequences of even 'light' covid cases so I have absolutely no idea why you thought you were going to be able to float this particular lie past us. > yet even those with no contact with at-risk groups must still disrupt their lives for seemingly no reason. Because the people they interact with may have contact with at-risk groups. This is epidemiology 101, limit transmission paths to slow down a disease. > IMO this is unfair to them and also prevents herd immunity from developing. It is becoming pretty clear that 'herd immunity' is going to be hard to develop without some widespread vaccination. > Furthermore outbreaks are happening in places even with more strict protocols. But places with strict protocols are doing a lot better than those without. > Overall I think the damage from the reaction to the pandemic is worse than the disease itself. Demonstrably false. It is quite telling that you and all of the other anti-lockdown people are no longer trying to tell us that Sweden is the model to follow. Over the past month it has become obvious that Sweden really fucked up badly and their choice to not lockdown is leading to a huge second wave while their neighbors are cruising along at almost no cases/deaths.
- zero_deg_kevin 6y ago
  Yes, very chilling indeed. Media personalities alienating their audiences and advertisers is exactly like state censorship resulting in imprisonment.
- idrios 6y ago
  Depends on the medium. Don't ever say anything against the grain on Twitter (or really any medium that encourages media to go viral). But at least HN is (usually) a good, moderated forum where opposing viewpoints can be heard with judgement for the argument and not the arguer. A difference the US has with the situation in the article is the Thai hotel was able to get law enforcement involved -- I don't think the US has crossed that line yet. Also you could view this TripAdvisor warning as a chilling effect against other establishments that might try to use the law to silence critics. Hopefully this hotel goes out of business
  - treeman79 6y ago
    Been seeing more anti-free speech people here. Or maybe the censorship is perfectly fine as long it’s our team mindset. But if you keep your arguments here well written and reasonable usually it’s fine.
    - monkeydreams 6y ago
      > Been seeing more anti-free speech people here. Or maybe the censorship is perfectly fine as long it’s our team mindset. Or maybe, just maybe, you do not have the monopoly opinion on what "free speech" is and is not. In all of the examples given, excepting the Thai Hotel case, free speech is still assured. You can still offer your opinions freely, but no publisher is required to publish them. And, having published them, no other punter is required to accept them, and specifically accept them without quarrel. Perhaps what you are seeing is actually free speech in all its glory! The 'anti-free speech people' have a right to speak their opinions just as you do. The fact they exist is proof that free speech exists, as it certainly seems that you would rather they did not voice their opinions. Remember, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences!
  - DarthGhandi 6y ago
    > where opposing viewpoints can be heard there's a huge amount of overt censorship from people literally disappearing comments along with all the shadowbanning here that is rarely acknowledged, how sure are you about that statement?
justinclift 6y ago
Relevant HN threads about the original problem (the guy being jailed for his negative online reviews): * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24608925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24608925 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24605386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24605386
asdefghyk 6y ago
TripAdvisor is protecting their business model by posting the warning on the hotels page. (They should post a warning on every page saying something like Reviews should be honest and no exaggeration. Reviews that are determined to be malicious could result in defamation lawsuits )
rkagerer 6y ago
Out of curiosity, does TripAdvisor provide its own mechanism for hosts to dispute misrepresentations in reviews? If so, would its investigation hold a candle to what takes place in a conventional legal proceeding?
im3w1l 6y ago
This is retaliation; they are trying to scare people into not exercising their legal rights. If trip advisor wanted to be responsible they warn foreigners - who might not know about the local laws - about all Thai establishments, rather than point fingers.
belval 6y ago
I am not sure what's incorrect here, or the conclusion that the article wants me to draw. The client: Decided to post a (possibly fake) review on a hotel he was staying at. The hotel: Sued the client as is their right I suppose. TripAdvisor: Gave the above information to their new clients so they'd know that leaving a bad review could be met with legal action from the hotel. Nothing wrong happened here? Why shouldn't TripAdvisor be allowed to inform their customers? Why should the hotel not use the law of their country to sue an individual? Give me a break, most hotels have some bad reviews which, when the hotel is actually good will be drowned in good reviews. TripAdvisor could say that they are alligators in the pools for all I care, they are a private entity...

63 points by pionerkotik 6y ago

Chilling effect. Imagine where the US is headed with online censorship and cancel culture. If you publicly disagree with controversial views you’re in for a bad time.

pavel_lishin 6y ago
Yes, claiming that women are bad at engineering and being thought of as a shithead is definitely equivalent to spending time in a Thai jail cell.
- dkdk8283 6y ago
  That’s a quick and strong reaction. Do you have a problem with women in tech? If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. I’m anti lockdown too. I get ostracized every time I bring it up.
  - qppo 6y ago
    Maybe that deserves some reflection rather than dismissing it as "cancel culture."
  - pavel_lishin 6y ago
    > That’s a quick and strong reaction. Do you have a problem with women in tech? No, I was making a reference to people like James Damore, who seem to. > If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. I’m anti lockdown too. I get ostracized every time I bring it up. I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon, but I'd love to hear what alternatives you have to getting a handle on the global pandemic that's killed 200k Americans and over a million people world-wide. (Preferably without making references to "herd immunity", which has been shown to not be effective, or comparing it to other causes of death, which are at best orthogonal to the issue at hand.)
  - EliRivers 6y ago
    If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. On the face of it, that's an interesting position to take. We know someone has a communicable disease that kills, we wonder if people he's been in contact with might also have it and might also be spreading it and dying of it; finding out seems like quite a sensible idea. What's the objection?
    - jagsbdjdksj 6y ago
      Let's make contact tracing mandatory for AIDS also. Is that OK by you?
    - CodeWriter23 6y ago
      Perhaps put the "kills" in the proper context of 240,000 / 350,000,000 and then evaluate the relative risk vs. sacrificing one's privacy.
      - tw04 6y ago
        >Perhaps put the "kills" in the proper context of 240,000 / 350,000,000 and then evaluate the relative risk vs. sacrificing one's privacy. Those are some pretty horrible numbers you're attempting to use. 350m people haven't been infected, so it's nowhere close to 240k/350m. It's closer to 240k/10m. As for privacy: if we were told we'd need to be permanently tracked from now until the end of time, I think just about everyone would agree with you (at least on HN) that it's just not a sacrifice worth making. But NOBODY is saying that, they're saying: how about we use this tool until a vaccine is ready - which is a far more reasonable ask.
        CodeWriter23 6y ago
        My factual numbers aren’t “bad” simply because you choose a different perspective. Notice how I am respectful of your position despite your attempts to bully me into joining some concept of unanimous consent you have contrived here. The reality is, very strong correlation of Vitamin D deficiency to hospitalization and death. But I’m not here telling you to be reasonable and dose Vitamin D to protect yourself and take responsibility for your own health. Bottom line though, I go to work and I go home. Contact tracing the old fashioned way is 100% sufficient for me. If you want to engage risky behavior that’s on you. I have no obligation to have my every movement tracked because of your exercise of free will.
  - aplummer 6y ago
    > If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. I’m anti lockdown too. I get ostracized every time I bring it up. You should be. You are talking about millions of peoples lives here. The fallacies that create these opinions like the proven false economy vs health narrative are utterly misguided delusions.
    - dkdk8283 6y ago
      I have the right to say and think as I want. Just like you. The difference is I won’t browbeat you for your opinion.
      - fairity 6y ago
        Yes, you have that right. And, the community has the right to downvote you to oblivion. It seems like you'd rather they not, so I'd recommend putting forth a well-structured argument to support your claims.
        dkdk8283 6y ago
        Let the downvotes pour. It’s the offline consequences that I have a problem with. In this case there aren’t any.
    - ryanlol 6y ago
      On the other we might as well view every year spent locked down as a year wasted. So with an average life expectancy of 80 years you’d be throwing away an entire lifetime for every 80 people you lock down. That’s a 1.23% death rate, it’s not yet clear that COVID is worse.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - nulld3v 6y ago
        That's essentially equating being in lockdown to being temporarily dead, which in my opinion is an exaggeration.
  - tw04 6y ago
    >If you must know I was referring to contact tracing. I’m against it. I’m anti lockdown too. I get ostracized every time I bring it up. Generally speaking, when you're pro something that provably kills innocent people, just because the alternative is inconvenient for you personally, you're going to get ostracized. "I'm for drunk-driving because I don't like paying or waiting for Ubers and I drive a big truck so I'll be OK" - also going to get you ostracized. Has almost nothing to do with "cancel culture" and everything to do with: show some basic respect to your fellow human beings.
    - seibelj 6y ago
      It’s more complicated than this. Covid is barely worse than the average flu for healthy young people, yet even those with no contact with at-risk groups must still disrupt their lives for seemingly no reason. IMO this is unfair to them and also prevents herd immunity from developing. Furthermore outbreaks are happening in places even with more strict protocols. Overall I think the damage from the reaction to the pandemic is worse than the disease itself.
      - evgen 6y ago
        > It’s more complicated than this. No, it really isn't. You are just trying to pretend it is because the current solutions do not fit your particular worldview or cause you some temporary inconvenience. > Covid is barely worse than the average flu for healthy young people, Not true. We are really starting to understand the long-term consequences of even 'light' covid cases so I have absolutely no idea why you thought you were going to be able to float this particular lie past us. > yet even those with no contact with at-risk groups must still disrupt their lives for seemingly no reason. Because the people they interact with may have contact with at-risk groups. This is epidemiology 101, limit transmission paths to slow down a disease. > IMO this is unfair to them and also prevents herd immunity from developing. It is becoming pretty clear that 'herd immunity' is going to be hard to develop without some widespread vaccination. > Furthermore outbreaks are happening in places even with more strict protocols. But places with strict protocols are doing a lot better than those without. > Overall I think the damage from the reaction to the pandemic is worse than the disease itself. Demonstrably false. It is quite telling that you and all of the other anti-lockdown people are no longer trying to tell us that Sweden is the model to follow. Over the past month it has become obvious that Sweden really fucked up badly and their choice to not lockdown is leading to a huge second wave while their neighbors are cruising along at almost no cases/deaths.
zero_deg_kevin 6y ago
Yes, very chilling indeed. Media personalities alienating their audiences and advertisers is exactly like state censorship resulting in imprisonment.
idrios 6y ago
Depends on the medium. Don't ever say anything against the grain on Twitter (or really any medium that encourages media to go viral). But at least HN is (usually) a good, moderated forum where opposing viewpoints can be heard with judgement for the argument and not the arguer. A difference the US has with the situation in the article is the Thai hotel was able to get law enforcement involved -- I don't think the US has crossed that line yet. Also you could view this TripAdvisor warning as a chilling effect against other establishments that might try to use the law to silence critics. Hopefully this hotel goes out of business
- treeman79 6y ago
  Been seeing more anti-free speech people here. Or maybe the censorship is perfectly fine as long it’s our team mindset. But if you keep your arguments here well written and reasonable usually it’s fine.
  - monkeydreams 6y ago
    > Been seeing more anti-free speech people here. Or maybe the censorship is perfectly fine as long it’s our team mindset. Or maybe, just maybe, you do not have the monopoly opinion on what "free speech" is and is not. In all of the examples given, excepting the Thai Hotel case, free speech is still assured. You can still offer your opinions freely, but no publisher is required to publish them. And, having published them, no other punter is required to accept them, and specifically accept them without quarrel. Perhaps what you are seeing is actually free speech in all its glory! The 'anti-free speech people' have a right to speak their opinions just as you do. The fact they exist is proof that free speech exists, as it certainly seems that you would rather they did not voice their opinions. Remember, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences!
- DarthGhandi 6y ago
  > where opposing viewpoints can be heard there's a huge amount of overt censorship from people literally disappearing comments along with all the shadowbanning here that is rarely acknowledged, how sure are you about that statement?

justinclift 6y ago

Relevant HN threads about the original problem (the guy being jailed for his negative online reviews): * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24608925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24608925 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24605386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24605386

asdefghyk 6y ago

TripAdvisor is protecting their business model by posting the warning on the hotels page. (They should post a warning on every page saying something like Reviews should be honest and no exaggeration. Reviews that are determined to be malicious could result in defamation lawsuits )

rkagerer 6y ago

Out of curiosity, does TripAdvisor provide its own mechanism for hosts to dispute misrepresentations in reviews? If so, would its investigation hold a candle to what takes place in a conventional legal proceeding?

im3w1l 6y ago

This is retaliation; they are trying to scare people into not exercising their legal rights. If trip advisor wanted to be responsible they warn foreigners - who might not know about the local laws - about all Thai establishments, rather than point fingers.

belval 6y ago

I am not sure what's incorrect here, or the conclusion that the article wants me to draw. The client: Decided to post a (possibly fake) review on a hotel he was staying at. The hotel: Sued the client as is their right I suppose. TripAdvisor: Gave the above information to their new clients so they'd know that leaving a bad review could be met with legal action from the hotel. Nothing wrong happened here? Why shouldn't TripAdvisor be allowed to inform their customers? Why should the hotel not use the law of their country to sue an individual? Give me a break, most hotels have some bad reviews which, when the hotel is actually good will be drowned in good reviews. TripAdvisor could say that they are alligators in the pools for all I care, they are a private entity...