5 ms·

Pippi and the Moomins

106 points by collapse 6y ago

jsnell 6y ago
Discussed a few weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24796797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24796797
sorokod 6y ago
I remember rereading Pippi to my son and marveling at how authority subversive it was.
- krstffr 6y ago
  It is also absolutley filled with the n-word (at least my Swedish edition from the 90's), which always makes for an interesting challenge having to censor and come up with alternative words as you go.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    I found this, where a parent edits out the word in an audioplay version: https://koneensaatio.fi/en/when-pippi-said-the-n-word/ https://koneensaatio.fi/en/when-pippi-said-the-n-word/ > I mentioned the situation later to a colleague, who said that the same problem had come up in the family, but they had tackled it with a practical solution. Working with sound, this colleague processed the audiobook with editing software to find out whether the N-words could be cut out smoothly. That being done successfully, the children could then listen to the edited version. The problem was solved. I like this part: > “For my daughter, Pippi is a really empowering character, so I can’t just not read the book, because censorship would only make her more interested. So I edit the text while reading it,” he says.
    - krstffr 6y ago
      Yeah, it's a really awesome book and censoring the language as you go isn't that hard really!
  - sorokod 6y ago
    Is that about Pippi's father being a king of the natives?
    - krstffr 6y ago
      Yes mainly. Pippi, Tommy and Annika also goes to his little island where he is king, and the language in that chapter is not the greatest!
    - ThinkingGuy 6y ago
      In the (US English) versions that were read to me as a child, I seem to recall it being rendered "King of the Pygmies."
      - SamBam 6y ago
        My Penguin version (1997) has "King of the Cannibals." Not much better -- probably worse, in fact, since they aren't even depicted as cannibals, so the name isn't in any way necessary. But I guess "King of the Islanders" would be boring.
  - tokai 6y ago
    I know it's not that much better, but it's not the actual n-word right?
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      It's the Swedish "neger", which was the uncontroversial term for black people at the time. Times have changed!
    - liversage 6y ago
      I'm Danish so i only know the Danish version but I think it's the same word as in Swedish. The Danish word is "neger" and the best translation to English would be "negro" (Pippi's dad is the "negro king" or "negerkonge"). Today it's a controversial word because by many it's considered racist almost like the n-word. However, especially older people don't consider it racist and they use it to describe people that otherwise might be described as "black". Newer revisions of the Pippi books have been edited to no longer use the word "neger" and I think this applies to both the Danish and Swedish editions (it was approved by Astrid Lindgren's daughter).
    - rags2riches 6y ago
      The Swedish word used in Pippi, until recent editions, was "neger" which has historically been used comparably to the English "negro" but also as a slur more comparable to the English "nigger". The Swedish phrase "n-ordet" ("the n-word") covers both the Swedish words "neger" and "nigger". The former was considered correct at one time. To my knowledge, the latter was always a slur, in Swedish. So there is bound to be some imprecision when discussing this topic across the two languages if one does not want to type out the full words even in their meta use. It is not hard to find examples of meta uses of "neger" in respected sources from just a few years ago. "N-ordet" is a quite recent import, obviously influenced by the American "the n-word".
    - sorokod 6y ago
      In Russian "негритянский король" - "king of the negroes"
goto11 6y ago
If you are curious about the Moomins, be aware that a lot of low quality material have been created by the estate which inherited the rights. Look for the books written and illustrated by Tove Jansson. They are some of the best Scandinavian literature and the illustrations are amazing. Jansson also illustrated some books by other authors, for example The Hobbit: https://imgur.com/gallery/njtkL https://imgur.com/gallery/njtkL
- waihtis 6y ago
  For folks with kids, I'd like to add the Finnish-Japanese-Dutch TV-series "Moomin." It is an iconic TV show here in Finland and generally quite good quality. It is of course a bit old by now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomin_(1990_TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomin_(1990_TV_series)
  - gspr 6y ago
    It's also a foundation of childhood memories for 90s kids here in Norway (albeit with voiceovers, as we tend to do for children's stuff). I can still hum the intro tune. And perfectly hear the sound the moomins make when they go from standstill to moving. And the Groke still creeps me out, and anyone my age gets a reference to that character right away! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Groke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Groke
    - roi 6y ago
      A wonderful video that references several children animes of that time, including the Moomins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJSk3sh3zlo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJSk3sh3zlo
dmitriid 6y ago
There's a similar author in Russia, Nikolai Nosov [1] He wrote most heart-warming stories for children or about children during WWII. If you read Russian, here's a great article about him: [2] --- quote, Google translate --- And the truth is that Nosov began writing stories shortly before the war (the first publication was in 1938), but the most famous, the brightest and most memorable were written in the most terrible years. Forty-first to forty-fifth. The most important thing is that when you know the answer, annoyance immediately wakes up - well, of course, it's understandable! All young heroes have only mothers, where the fathers have gone is not clear. And in general there are not many male characters for the entire cycle: a rather elderly, apparently, "Uncle Fedya" on the train, who was all indignant at the recitation of poetry, and the leader Vitya, apparently, was a high school student. Ascetic life to the limit, jam with bread as a delicacy ... But still there is no war there. Not by word, not by hint, not by spirit. I don’t need to explain why. Because this is for children. For children to whom life has already measured so much that God forbid us to find out. --- end quote --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Nosov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Nosov [2] https://www.gazeta.ru/culture/2008/11/27/a_2897371.shtml https://www.gazeta.ru/culture/2008/11/27/a_2897371.shtml
- zajio1am 6y ago
  > There's a similar author in Russia, Nikolai Nosov [1] It is worth noting that he alse wrote Dunno on the Moon - hardcore communist propaganda for children.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    It's hardly hardcore communist propaganda. It's some of his best work. It is anticapitalist propaganda, for sure, but hardly hardcore communist propaganda, and is very prescient of many issues (well, hard to be prescient about something that was always the case). Moreover, Dunno on the Moon uses concepts and ideas that a person in the USSR would have no to little idea about (e.g. stock markets, negative campaigning etc.), or concepts that didn't even exist at the time of writing (police batons with built-in electric discharges first appeared in the West after Nosov's death).
andi999 6y ago
I find the subtitle is weird (at least for the Pippi part):'left propaganda and prudery behind.'. Prudery in my understand mostly refers to a person 'being more uncomfortable than most with sexuality or nudity.'. Maybe it is used in a different sense here, but the Pippi book do not take any position on sexuality or nudity (like Disney in movies, parents are absent (father later joins in)).
- goto11 6y ago
  Prudery is not specifically about sexuality but more generally being overly concerned about "manners" and "proper behavior", something Pippi completely disregards.
  - andi999 6y ago
    Thanks. It is probably one of the 'false friends' of my language (very similiar word, but more specific meaning). Edit: well at least this dictionary agrees with me:https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/prudery https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/americ...
  - twic 6y ago
    I'm a native English speaker, and i understand "prude" to be mostly related to sex.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      Yes, that's how it's mostly used today. But here are some dictionary definitions. OED (I've cut the examples) > prude, a. and n. > A. adj. That maintains or affects extreme propriety of speech and behaviour, especially in regard to the relations of the sexes; excessively modest, demure, or prim; prudish: usually applied adversely. Now rare. [...] > prude, a. and n. > (pruːd)[a. mod.F. prude adj. and n., said of a woman in same sense as the Eng. (Molière in Littré), in OF. prude, prode, preude, in a laudatory sense, good, virtuous, modest, respectable; either a back-formation from prudefemme (cf. prudhomme) or a later fem. form of prod, pro, pru: see preux, prow a.] >prude, a. and n. > B. n. A woman who maintains or affects excessive modesty or propriety in conduct or speech; one who is of extreme propriety: usually applied adversely with implication of affectation. [...] > prude, a. and n. > Hence ˈprudelike a., of the nature of, or characteristic of, a prude; ˈprudely adv., in the manner of a prude. [...] > prude, v. > intr. To conduct oneself in the manner of a prude; to act prudishly. Hence ˈpruding vbl. n. Websters Revised (1913): > Prude \Prude\, n. [F., prudish, originally, discreet, modest; > shortened from OF. prudefeme, preudefeme, a discreet or excellent woman; OF. preu, prou, excellent, brave + de of + fete woman. See {Prow}, a., {Prowess}.] A woman of affected modesty, reserve, or coyness; one who is overscrupulous or sensitive; one who affects extraordinary prudence in conduct and speech. Chambers: > prude /prood/ > noun > 1. A person of priggish or affected modesty > 2. Someone who has or pretends to have extreme propriety > adjective ( rare) > 1. Priggish or affectedly modest > 2. Claiming extreme propriety
macspoofing 6y ago
Both are tremendous works. I grew up on Swedish literature. Very fond memories of the entire 'Bullerby' series. >The antics in postwar Nordic children’s books left propaganda and prudery behind. We need this madcap spirit more than ever True words especially in the middle of our moral panic.
rypskar 6y ago
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” ― Astrid Lindgren, Pippi Longstocking One of my favorite quotes, such a great way to look at life
- mjklin 6y ago
  “Var inte ängslig! Jag klarar mig alltid!” - Pippi
- goto11 6y ago
  Is that an authentic quote from the books?
  - rypskar 6y ago
    Yes, at least the English translation of it [0]. I don't remember the actual words in the original version, but this seems like a direct translation. [0]https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6773397-i-have-never-tried-that-before-so-i-think-i https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6773397-i-have-never-tried-...
steerpike 6y ago
I'm reading the Moomin books to my two eldest at the moment and they are loving them. My eldest is on the spectrum and seems to find the honest, gentle Nordic nature of both the style of writing and the content to be very appealing. We read a lot of books together and these are certainly his favourites. Might be of interest to others with similar thinkers.
1123581321 6y ago
Also check out Lindgren’s Emil series of books. They’re about a boy on a farm whose curiosity, energy and prankster imagination keep getting him into trouble. He is not super powered, just full human. Very funny, and poignant in perhaps the way Calvin & Hobbes can be.
- jfk13 6y ago
  Yes! They're wonderful, and nowhere near as well-known as they deserve to be.
- gspr 6y ago
  EEEEeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEmiiiiiiil! Förgrömmade unge!
  - michaelleland 6y ago
    Vi bor i USA men vi kallar fortfarande vår pojke "Emil" när han spelar rollen.
slmjkdbtl 6y ago
Just found out about a Moomin video game not long ago and it's extremely fun and very inspiring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QrxvtmCoFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QrxvtmCoFQ
- Raphmedia 6y ago
  I miss those early 90's educative games so much.
  - slmjkdbtl 6y ago
    Yes, a lot of games targeting younger audiences focuses more on "playfulness" and "toylike", which is awesome.
blippage 6y ago
I saw the Moomins when I was at university. I should probably have been studying. I happened across some episodes on Youtube a couple of years ago, and my opinion of it was that it was "enchanting". Although aimed at kids, there's something distinctly magical about it. Drop your adult mind, and think like a child again.
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
Absolutely adore the series! I have the full collection illustrated by Tove Janssen.

106 points by collapse 6y ago

jsnell 6y ago

Discussed a few weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24796797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24796797

sorokod 6y ago

I remember rereading Pippi to my son and marveling at how authority subversive it was.

krstffr 6y ago
It is also absolutley filled with the n-word (at least my Swedish edition from the 90's), which always makes for an interesting challenge having to censor and come up with alternative words as you go.
- DanBC 6y ago
  I found this, where a parent edits out the word in an audioplay version: https://koneensaatio.fi/en/when-pippi-said-the-n-word/ https://koneensaatio.fi/en/when-pippi-said-the-n-word/ > I mentioned the situation later to a colleague, who said that the same problem had come up in the family, but they had tackled it with a practical solution. Working with sound, this colleague processed the audiobook with editing software to find out whether the N-words could be cut out smoothly. That being done successfully, the children could then listen to the edited version. The problem was solved. I like this part: > “For my daughter, Pippi is a really empowering character, so I can’t just not read the book, because censorship would only make her more interested. So I edit the text while reading it,” he says.
  - krstffr 6y ago
    Yeah, it's a really awesome book and censoring the language as you go isn't that hard really!
- sorokod 6y ago
  Is that about Pippi's father being a king of the natives?
  - krstffr 6y ago
    Yes mainly. Pippi, Tommy and Annika also goes to his little island where he is king, and the language in that chapter is not the greatest!
  - ThinkingGuy 6y ago
    In the (US English) versions that were read to me as a child, I seem to recall it being rendered "King of the Pygmies."
    - SamBam 6y ago
      My Penguin version (1997) has "King of the Cannibals." Not much better -- probably worse, in fact, since they aren't even depicted as cannibals, so the name isn't in any way necessary. But I guess "King of the Islanders" would be boring.
- tokai 6y ago
  I know it's not that much better, but it's not the actual n-word right?
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    It's the Swedish "neger", which was the uncontroversial term for black people at the time. Times have changed!
  - liversage 6y ago
    I'm Danish so i only know the Danish version but I think it's the same word as in Swedish. The Danish word is "neger" and the best translation to English would be "negro" (Pippi's dad is the "negro king" or "negerkonge"). Today it's a controversial word because by many it's considered racist almost like the n-word. However, especially older people don't consider it racist and they use it to describe people that otherwise might be described as "black". Newer revisions of the Pippi books have been edited to no longer use the word "neger" and I think this applies to both the Danish and Swedish editions (it was approved by Astrid Lindgren's daughter).
  - rags2riches 6y ago
    The Swedish word used in Pippi, until recent editions, was "neger" which has historically been used comparably to the English "negro" but also as a slur more comparable to the English "nigger". The Swedish phrase "n-ordet" ("the n-word") covers both the Swedish words "neger" and "nigger". The former was considered correct at one time. To my knowledge, the latter was always a slur, in Swedish. So there is bound to be some imprecision when discussing this topic across the two languages if one does not want to type out the full words even in their meta use. It is not hard to find examples of meta uses of "neger" in respected sources from just a few years ago. "N-ordet" is a quite recent import, obviously influenced by the American "the n-word".
  - sorokod 6y ago
    In Russian "негритянский король" - "king of the negroes"

goto11 6y ago

If you are curious about the Moomins, be aware that a lot of low quality material have been created by the estate which inherited the rights. Look for the books written and illustrated by Tove Jansson. They are some of the best Scandinavian literature and the illustrations are amazing. Jansson also illustrated some books by other authors, for example The Hobbit: https://imgur.com/gallery/njtkL https://imgur.com/gallery/njtkL

waihtis 6y ago
For folks with kids, I'd like to add the Finnish-Japanese-Dutch TV-series "Moomin." It is an iconic TV show here in Finland and generally quite good quality. It is of course a bit old by now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomin_(1990_TV_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomin_(1990_TV_series)
- gspr 6y ago
  It's also a foundation of childhood memories for 90s kids here in Norway (albeit with voiceovers, as we tend to do for children's stuff). I can still hum the intro tune. And perfectly hear the sound the moomins make when they go from standstill to moving. And the Groke still creeps me out, and anyone my age gets a reference to that character right away! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Groke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Groke
  - roi 6y ago
    A wonderful video that references several children animes of that time, including the Moomins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJSk3sh3zlo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJSk3sh3zlo

dmitriid 6y ago

There's a similar author in Russia, Nikolai Nosov [1] He wrote most heart-warming stories for children or about children during WWII. If you read Russian, here's a great article about him: [2] --- quote, Google translate --- And the truth is that Nosov began writing stories shortly before the war (the first publication was in 1938), but the most famous, the brightest and most memorable were written in the most terrible years. Forty-first to forty-fifth. The most important thing is that when you know the answer, annoyance immediately wakes up - well, of course, it's understandable! All young heroes have only mothers, where the fathers have gone is not clear. And in general there are not many male characters for the entire cycle: a rather elderly, apparently, "Uncle Fedya" on the train, who was all indignant at the recitation of poetry, and the leader Vitya, apparently, was a high school student. Ascetic life to the limit, jam with bread as a delicacy ... But still there is no war there. Not by word, not by hint, not by spirit. I don’t need to explain why. Because this is for children. For children to whom life has already measured so much that God forbid us to find out. --- end quote --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Nosov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Nosov [2] https://www.gazeta.ru/culture/2008/11/27/a_2897371.shtml https://www.gazeta.ru/culture/2008/11/27/a_2897371.shtml

zajio1am 6y ago
> There's a similar author in Russia, Nikolai Nosov [1] It is worth noting that he alse wrote Dunno on the Moon - hardcore communist propaganda for children.
- dmitriid 6y ago
  It's hardly hardcore communist propaganda. It's some of his best work. It is anticapitalist propaganda, for sure, but hardly hardcore communist propaganda, and is very prescient of many issues (well, hard to be prescient about something that was always the case). Moreover, Dunno on the Moon uses concepts and ideas that a person in the USSR would have no to little idea about (e.g. stock markets, negative campaigning etc.), or concepts that didn't even exist at the time of writing (police batons with built-in electric discharges first appeared in the West after Nosov's death).

andi999 6y ago

I find the subtitle is weird (at least for the Pippi part):'left propaganda and prudery behind.'. Prudery in my understand mostly refers to a person 'being more uncomfortable than most with sexuality or nudity.'. Maybe it is used in a different sense here, but the Pippi book do not take any position on sexuality or nudity (like Disney in movies, parents are absent (father later joins in)).

goto11 6y ago
Prudery is not specifically about sexuality but more generally being overly concerned about "manners" and "proper behavior", something Pippi completely disregards.
- andi999 6y ago
  Thanks. It is probably one of the 'false friends' of my language (very similiar word, but more specific meaning). Edit: well at least this dictionary agrees with me:https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/prudery https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/americ...
- twic 6y ago
  I'm a native English speaker, and i understand "prude" to be mostly related to sex.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    Yes, that's how it's mostly used today. But here are some dictionary definitions. OED (I've cut the examples) > prude, a. and n. > A. adj. That maintains or affects extreme propriety of speech and behaviour, especially in regard to the relations of the sexes; excessively modest, demure, or prim; prudish: usually applied adversely. Now rare. [...] > prude, a. and n. > (pruːd)[a. mod.F. prude adj. and n., said of a woman in same sense as the Eng. (Molière in Littré), in OF. prude, prode, preude, in a laudatory sense, good, virtuous, modest, respectable; either a back-formation from prudefemme (cf. prudhomme) or a later fem. form of prod, pro, pru: see preux, prow a.] >prude, a. and n. > B. n. A woman who maintains or affects excessive modesty or propriety in conduct or speech; one who is of extreme propriety: usually applied adversely with implication of affectation. [...] > prude, a. and n. > Hence ˈprudelike a., of the nature of, or characteristic of, a prude; ˈprudely adv., in the manner of a prude. [...] > prude, v. > intr. To conduct oneself in the manner of a prude; to act prudishly. Hence ˈpruding vbl. n. Websters Revised (1913): > Prude \Prude\, n. [F., prudish, originally, discreet, modest; > shortened from OF. prudefeme, preudefeme, a discreet or excellent woman; OF. preu, prou, excellent, brave + de of + fete woman. See {Prow}, a., {Prowess}.] A woman of affected modesty, reserve, or coyness; one who is overscrupulous or sensitive; one who affects extraordinary prudence in conduct and speech. Chambers: > prude /prood/ > noun > 1. A person of priggish or affected modesty > 2. Someone who has or pretends to have extreme propriety > adjective ( rare) > 1. Priggish or affectedly modest > 2. Claiming extreme propriety

macspoofing 6y ago

Both are tremendous works. I grew up on Swedish literature. Very fond memories of the entire 'Bullerby' series. >The antics in postwar Nordic children’s books left propaganda and prudery behind. We need this madcap spirit more than ever True words especially in the middle of our moral panic.

rypskar 6y ago

“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” ― Astrid Lindgren, Pippi Longstocking One of my favorite quotes, such a great way to look at life

mjklin 6y ago
“Var inte ängslig! Jag klarar mig alltid!” - Pippi
goto11 6y ago
Is that an authentic quote from the books?
- rypskar 6y ago
  Yes, at least the English translation of it [0]. I don't remember the actual words in the original version, but this seems like a direct translation. [0]https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6773397-i-have-never-tried-that-before-so-i-think-i https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6773397-i-have-never-tried-...

steerpike 6y ago

I'm reading the Moomin books to my two eldest at the moment and they are loving them. My eldest is on the spectrum and seems to find the honest, gentle Nordic nature of both the style of writing and the content to be very appealing. We read a lot of books together and these are certainly his favourites. Might be of interest to others with similar thinkers.

1123581321 6y ago

Also check out Lindgren’s Emil series of books. They’re about a boy on a farm whose curiosity, energy and prankster imagination keep getting him into trouble. He is not super powered, just full human. Very funny, and poignant in perhaps the way Calvin & Hobbes can be.

jfk13 6y ago
Yes! They're wonderful, and nowhere near as well-known as they deserve to be.
gspr 6y ago
EEEEeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEmiiiiiiil! Förgrömmade unge!
- michaelleland 6y ago
  Vi bor i USA men vi kallar fortfarande vår pojke "Emil" när han spelar rollen.

slmjkdbtl 6y ago

Just found out about a Moomin video game not long ago and it's extremely fun and very inspiring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QrxvtmCoFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QrxvtmCoFQ

Raphmedia 6y ago
I miss those early 90's educative games so much.
- slmjkdbtl 6y ago
  Yes, a lot of games targeting younger audiences focuses more on "playfulness" and "toylike", which is awesome.

blippage 6y ago

I saw the Moomins when I was at university. I should probably have been studying. I happened across some episodes on Youtube a couple of years ago, and my opinion of it was that it was "enchanting". Although aimed at kids, there's something distinctly magical about it. Drop your adult mind, and think like a child again.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago

Absolutely adore the series! I have the full collection illustrated by Tove Janssen.