9 ms·

Apple Silicon M1 Macs do not support eGPUs

81 points by MobileVet 6y ago

lathiat 6y ago
Also only a single external display (6K@60Hz) for the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro as per the tech specs, which is a deal breaker for me. The Mac Mini supports one on thunderbolt also and a second at 4K 60Hz that has to be on the HDMI port. https://www.apple.com/au/macbook-pro-13/specs/ https://www.apple.com/au/macbook-pro-13/specs/ “Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display in millions of colours and: One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz”
- rowanG077 6y ago
  WTF. That's insane. Instant dealbreaker.
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    Those people can still get an Intel-based Mac. For me, the dealbreaker is the 16GB memory limit - it's too little for comfort right now and I assume a 32 or 64GB machine is what it would take to carry me for the next five years or so.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      16GB memory is completely fine for me. I have had it the last 5 years and never had even close to saturation. But I do use two screens every day.
      - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
        That is the problem. In _2015_ I bought a tablet PC (!) which had 16GB of RAM. I've been having 16GB of RAM as standard/minimum for at least 5 years already. And it was on the same pricing that these 2020 machines which have 16GB of RAM _as a maximum_. I am not willing the entertain the idea "more RAM is no longer possible nor necessary", either. Software keeps creeping up as usual (MS Teams _by itself_ uses >2GB, and I have already complained dearly -- Teams is basically a glorified IRC client!). And next year if not this year already it's highly likely my phone will have 16GB of RAM. My phone! On my pocket! It's just ridiculous that a $1200 laptop has 8 GB, and it is just unbelievable it maxes out at 16GB. Looks designed to be thrown away next year.
        simonh 6y ago
        What laptop manufacturers sell $1200 laptops that don't come with a base 8GB RAM option? I don't know any. Not Dell, or HP, or Lenovo. Apple still sells 13" Macbook Pros that go up to 32GB RAM, they're just Intel ones. If you need more than 16 GB in a Pro Mac, or a Mini you can still get it. So these options have not been taken off the table. The M1 machines simply offer a new tradeoff of smaller but faster memory if that works for you. Not every machine needs to offer every possible configuration.
        easde 6y ago
        Dell even sold a 4GB (!) version of the XPS 13 for $999 up until a few months ago.
        coldtea 6y ago
        >It's just ridiculous that a $1200 laptop has 8 GB Is it? Dell sells a $1499 laptop with 8GB. They also have 16GB models, but once you add specs equivalent to the new MacBook (at least i7, SSD, 13") the prices are $1299 and above (and you get a plastic box, not exactly the same build quality, trackpad, etc - though you do get a probabl better camera and more ports). https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/sr/laptops/intel-core-i7?appliedRefinements=6084,15674,23085,13248 https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/sr/laptops/inte...
      - rangoon626 6y ago
        I thought 16 GB never seemed saturated until I installed 64 GB. The OS will definitely use more if you have more. It seems like I use typically around 32 GB.
      - aldanor 6y ago
        To each his own, I'm close to saturating 2013 32G iMac almost every day. To me personally, anything less than 64-128G these days is a joke, especially given how cheap the ram is (non-integrated, of course).
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        I also think 16GB is a perfectly reasonable amount of memory (and even 8GB is fine on a low-end machine), but the fact that it's the limit is... troubling. I assume it'll be fixed in time, but, still.
      - jlokier 6y ago
        I thought my MBP's 16GB was fine. For a long time I rarely saw usage over 8GB. But for a few months everything was running rather slow and I put it down to other causes. One day I looked at the memory usage and saw it was using 10GB swap in addition to about 14.5GB RAM. And when I clicked things that responded slowly, the memory pressure meter was lighting up. Swapping was why it was slow. It's pretty fast swap, being on SSD, but it was the reason for the slowdowns. Probably not doing the SSD any good either (they wear out if written to constantly). Turns out Safari was using 8GB by itself. Restarting Safari helped (it's quick to restart which is nice). Safari, like Chrome, uses a lot of memory after opening a bunch of tabs because of using separate processes for each tab. I also use Firefox, but it uses 6-8GB for me too. Then there's my VM running my Linux dev environment. Now I only give it 4GB, which is a bit tight but I run some things remotely so it's ok. I had to shrink it from 6GB to get my performance back. Sometimes I'm foolish enough to have LibreOffice or MS Word open to look at documents. They aren't memory hogs, but when you've lost most of it to the browser(s) and dev VM, little things like office apps push it a few GB over the edge. I'm also running Emacs with quite a lot loaded into it, and many iTerms, but they use so little RAM compared with the big stuff, it barely registers. Nowadays I pay more attention to memory use, mostly use only one browser at a time, and restart more often. Even so, it's hovering around 5GB swap at the moment, and I haven't got much going on at the moment. Based on this, I know I can live with 16GB but it is restricting what I use and how I work now. 32GB would be let me stop thinking about RAM again, and I expect in a few years it will be nearly full, as usage tends to grow over time (as I found already). If I could buy a new MBP knowing I could upgrade the RAM I'd be happy to buy at 16GB, but as you can't upgrade, and I want a new laptop to last at least 5 years, I wouldn't be comfortable buying a dev machine at 16GB now.
  - lastofthemojito 6y ago
    The memory limit was the dealbreaker for me, but I've seen people mention several others for their uses cases - no eGPUs, weak multi-monitor support out-of-the-box, etc. Apple obviously knows that a lot of people rely on those power-user features, so I'm sure at some point you'll be able to buy an ARM Mac with 128GB RAM that you can hook 6 monitors up to. I do think starting at the low end makes sense for Apple though. These machines will sell mostly to everyday folks who just use a handful of common apps - I wouldn't be surprised if Safari is the #1 app used on these machines. That gives Apple a start to this transition, without the reputational hit that might have occurred if they sold a bunch of machines to power users right away. We'll whine a little bit that the machines weren't what we wanted, and then we'll just wait for the M1X machines. But that's better than if we all bought M1X MacBook Pros yesterday and then were disappointed when a couple of crucial apps didn't work yet. This "flattens the curve" of application incompatibility reports if you will.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    I'd say that's an exaggeration. Hannibal Lecter is insane. An entry-level laptop not supporting dual 4K screens (for whatever reason) sounds more tame, especially if the vendor has statistics that show that a tiny minority use theirs with such a setup even in the Intel version that does support it... The 16GB max memory is another problem, but again mostly not for the kind of users the machine is intended for.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      a €1.909,00 laptop(Cost of macbook pro 13 inch with 16gb of RAM) is not entry level. It's not even mid-tier. That is a high-end laptop. Entry level would at least be sub €600 laptop.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >a €1.909,00 laptop(Cost of macbook pro 13 inch with 16gb of RAM) is not entry level. For Apple it is. And for most other companies (Dell, Lenovo, Razer, etc). When you configure any kind of developer-class or workstation-class machine, it gets way above $2000 soon regardless of vendor. I wanted to try a Lenovo or Razer with compatible specs to a high end MacBook Pro 16 (to use if as a high end Linux workstation), and it gets into the same ballpark very quickly as you narrow the specs down. The sub €600 category Apple doesn't cater to.
        rowanG077 6y ago
        Entry level and workstation class are completely orthogonal concepts. You can have an entry-level workstation. But the macbook pro 13 inch is not an entry-level workstation. It's not a workstation at all. It's also not an entry-level laptop. Razer, like Apple, doesn't offer entry level laptops. Apple and Razer simply don't operate in that market segment. But Dell and Lenovo do. Here are some examples of their entry level stuff: Dell: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/sr/laptops/inspiron-laptops https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/sr/laptops/insp... Lenovo: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/ideapad-100-series/lenovo-ideapad-s145-15ast/p/81N3001RUS https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/ideapad-100-ser...
- m-p-3 6y ago
  I'm wondering if a DisplayLink docking station like the Dell D6000 would support more, if they manage to get the drivers working for it (or if Apple integrates DisplayLink support natively, which I doubt will happen).
  - nhumrich 6y ago
    Apple has never supported Displaylink or even the DisplayPort 1.2 spec that allows daisy chaining using MST
    - wlesieutre 6y ago
      I don't know about daisy chaining, but they definitely support MST because Dell's UP2414Q uses that to run its 4K @ 60Hz mode
      - wlesieutre 6y ago
        Based on downvotes, I guess people don't believe me. Here's a support document from 2014 explaining the capability: http://web.archive.org/web/20140628022826/http://support.apple.com/kb/HT6008 http://web.archive.org/web/20140628022826/http://support.app... Single displays driven as two half panels over MST has been supported since 10.9.3, including the UP2414Q that I mentioned. Otherwise, DisplayPort 1.2 could only give the screens enough bandwidth to run at 30 Hz. > MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) or Mac Pro (Late 2013) also support 60 Hz displays using multi-stream transport (MST). These displays need to be manually configured to use MST. Follow the steps below to use the display's built-in controls to enable this feature. > [display specific instructions omitted] > Your Mac will automatically detect an MST-enabled display. However, your display may require a firmware update to support 60Hz operation. Please contact your display vendor for details. If your specific DisplayPort display is not listed above, check with the display’s manufacturer for compatibility information. Having used that Dell screen on both OS X and Windows, I can tell you this MST capability was better supported on Mac than it was on Windows. On a Mac it worked perfectly. On Windows you'd frequently get half of the screen either black or shifted sideways, creating several visible seams in the image. Not my screenshots, but see here for examples: https://www.dell.com/community/Monitors/UP2414Q-Rev-A03-Wake-Up-Half-Screen-Wrong-Screen-resolution/td-p/4745902 https://www.dell.com/community/Monitors/UP2414Q-Rev-A03-Wake...
- m463 6y ago
  We're not the target market. I suspect what macs may become to many of us is the trusted machine we buy for child/spouse/parent, then run off to our linux machine. I was going to say windows for games, but it seems I wasn't paying attention and linux machines run lots of games well nowadays.
Shivetya 6y ago
I really hope some of the limitations we are seeing with the M1 chip being from a slow roll out to the new technology and not some sign of a new wall. the biggest concern to me is the on die memory. while nice from a performance perspective I do not understand how they will do this going forward for true Pro models where users want 64g or even more memory. I also await their on dGPU solution. A few users have also commented on the lack of ports and while I have not dug into this, are the controllers for these also all integrated in the chip?
- capableweb 6y ago
  I think you (and users like you) are simply not the target customer for Apple anymore. They used to aim for the professional market segment, where people are using multiple displays, need external GPU for creative work and other external gear, and computers that don't throttle their CPU that easily. But if the last few years of Apple's new hardware is telling us anything, is that Apple is now strictly casual-oriented, and if you're in any capacity a professional, you need to start thinking about getting a PC again.
  - physicsguy 6y ago
    Bit of a problem if you want to write iPhone or Mac apps though...
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      It's a good thing their Intel machines go all the way to 28 Xeon cores and 1.5TB if RAM then...
      - physicsguy 6y ago
        Sure, and I imagine the ARM ones will in time - but it moves the MBP further along the admittedly already in progress line of it not really being a Pro machine anymore.
        6y ago
einarfd 6y ago
It looks like what Apple did was take their cellphone Arm processors. Do the minimal changes to get it to work in a laptop, and jammed that into laptops they already had. Which seems to me, to be the right strategy, but you do then end up with some weird limitations. I expect these issues to be sorted in the future generations of Apple silicon laptops.
- stuff4ben 6y ago
  Yeah, like most first gen Apple gear, it's probably wise to hold off until they work the kinks out. That being said, my MacBook Air is getting a little long in the tooth so I may upgrade sooner rather than later.
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    I'm torn between a refurb Intel-based MBA or a new M1-based MBA. Or making a leap over to the 12" iPad Pro.
    - lucian1900 6y ago
      I got myself a used iPad Air 3 with a keyboard. Besides programming, I’ve yet to encounter serious limitations.
      - alistairSH 6y ago
        Yeah, the iPad Air is tempting, but I want a "big" screen for photo editing while traveling. If there was a 12" Air, I'd already own it.
        easde 6y ago
        Refurb 12" Macbook? Wish Apple would reintroduce those with the M1. Awesome form factor, held back by Intel's anemic Core M CPUs.
        6y ago
seotut2 6y ago
But I assume the SoC or the processor itself does have PCIe expansion ports, right? Internal GPUs should in theory work should the part be sold by itself.
- verroq 6y ago
  I doubt they’d implement PCIe since they don’t need that for their baked in GPU to talk to their baked in CPU.
  - avian 6y ago
    The slides shows an external "Thunderbold controller" chip. Seems like something they would have hanging off a PCIe bus.
    - gumby 6y ago
      Minor point: they could be talking to the controller itself over some other internal bus. But as TB is PCIe this comment isn't intended to contradict your core point.
  - crgwbr 6y ago
    The slides explicitly mentioned PCIe support. They just don’t make any M1 machines with standard slots yet.
  - solarkraft 6y ago
    The iPhone talks to its storage through NVMe, which is based on PCIe, suggesting to me that they already have the infrastructure.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  Unless Apple starts selling some overpriced PCIe devices, don't hold your hopes up on this. Ram is soldered / integrated into the SoC. Tomorrow even the SSD will be (if it isn't already). Ultimately you will not be able to upgrade anything, just like your iPhone or iPad.
- 6y ago
jmuguy 6y ago
That's distressing to hear. For many months I struggled with performance issues and throttling on my Macbook Pro (15 inch, mid 2017). I went down a bunch of rabbit holes, messing with Time Machine backup, paranoia about specific apps pegging the CPU. The issue with one side of the thunderbolt ports running hotter than the other, and maybe that was causing the system to heat up to the point of throttling. Finally I discovered it was my external monitors - I have have 2 4k monitors connected and I use display scaling on both. This apparently strains the integrated GPU, heats up the system, and caused the throttling. As ridiculous as it was to purchase an external enclosure and video card - that solved the issue. Now the system runs flawlessly.
- masklinn 6y ago
  > Finally I discovered it was my external monitors - I have have 2 4k monitors connected and I use display scaling on both. M1 (or at least the macbooks) only supports a single external display, problem solved!
- rickyc091 6y ago
  This problem still occurs with the latest MBPs even with one 4k monitor. As you mentioned, it's a heat issue. Once I turn on the AC, it starts to pick up speed again.
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    It's far worse on the new ones (18W vs 8W) and the problem occurs on almost all monitors, even 2560x1440.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  The integrated GPU isn't the problem. The MBP only uses the dGPU for external monitors. The problem is that the dGPU driver/firmware/whatever is broken so it runs at a minimum of 8W even when there's no work to do, overloading the thermals. The 2019 16" MPB made this problem far worse, raising the minimum dGPU to 18W, making external displays almost completely unusable for more than 1hr at a time unless you put the laptop aside in an external cooling solution (stand and fans) where you can't ergonomically use the integrated keyboard.
GeekyBear 6y ago
I'm kind of shocked that they got an integrated Thunderbolt controller working as fast as they did, even if version one doesn't support every feature. Apple is shipping an integrated Thunderbolt controller before Intel does with Tigerlake.
- vetinari 6y ago
  Intel Tiger Lake machines are already being sold. XPS 13 9310, for example.
  - GeekyBear 6y ago
    Well, what do you know. PC Magazine just reviewed it yesterday.
- wil421 6y ago
  Thunderbolt is one of the things keeping me on intel for now. I am happy Apple added it but not sure Apple Silicon can handle the video editing and transcoding at the speed I’d like it to.
- hajile 6y ago
  Ice Lake had integrated Thunderbolt last year.
- gumby 6y ago
  I'm actually excited by this aspect, even if incomplete. This means it can come to future iPads as well.
- bartvk 6y ago
  Yeah, I always figured this would be one of the major obstacles to overcome. In hindsight, it's now clear why there are so much Apple people in these USB-C standards documents. Do we know whose IP they use? And is it integrated on die, or integrated in the package of the SoC?
jmull 6y ago
I wouldn’t read too much into this, at least not at this point. Same for some of the other technical limitations. The Apple slotted these M1 macs into the entry-level position for their lower-end models. One thing that lets them do is focus on fundamentals of this migration first and take on more sophisticated use-cases over time. Support for more RAM, more external displays, etc. is coming.
- dev_tty01 6y ago
  I agree this will improve, but I think the previous commenter was referring to these particular models. I was considering the 13 inch until i noticed only 2 Thunderbolt/USB 4 ports. There is a $100 discount from the equivalently configured Intel Pro. I guess that is for the external USB4 hub you'll need. The lack of a 32 GB option also gives me pause. Looks like I am holding out for the 16 inch with the M1X...
selsta 6y ago
Is this really surprising? Apple said the transition is going to take 2 years. As predicted, they only updated their entry level devices yesterday. More pro machines (e.g. 16" MBP) will probably get announced Q1 - Q2 2021. These will also have more available RAM, support more displays, etc.)
- aldanor 6y ago
  It almost feels like they've intentionally limited this batch to 16G so that next year they can say "We've Quadrupled the RAM!"
pwinnski 6y ago
This seems very, very much like a first generation product, but I hope future iteration of their M-chip SoCs support more RAM, more ports, eGPUs, etc. I'm pretty sure they'll support more RAM and more ports and more displays in the future, but I'm worried about the eGPU support. Pulling a GPU into the SoC might make them think they've got that covered, but it won't be enough.
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
Showing Cinema4D front and centre during your reveal without being able to take advantage of high end gpus is strange.
- gumby 6y ago
  Not if your objective is to demonstrate that your onboard GPU is up to the task.
sschueller 6y ago
This and the eventual lockout of non-signed apps makes this a no go. I'm not supporting a device that will give the EU the power to force removal of apps that don't have an encryption back door [1]. Same goes for apple's app store. At least I can still side load android apps for now. Thanks to Apple and everyone copying these "for security" features we are rapidly loosing our democracy and freedoms. 1984 is already here and most want it. Sadly no one seems to realize that in these last few acts of terrorism in France and Austria the purpatraitors where known. In fact some where already in prison before. Reading their IMs wouldn't have made any difference with the amount that was known and the incompetent government bureaucracy. Killing encryption won't fix that. [1] https://www.ccc.de/de/updates/2020/cryptowars-2020 https://www.ccc.de/de/updates/2020/cryptowars-2020
- daxelrod 6y ago
  Have you heard any additional news about "the eventual lockout of non-signed apps" on Apple Silicon? I'm curious if they announced anything besides the behavior we already know about in Big Sur.
- chokeartist 6y ago
  Your criticism is legitimate, and I am not buying a new Macbook with the M1 for the same reasons. I will however say there is a legitimate, non-crippleware reason: Secure Boot (device boot/kernel integrity). Before we had basic constructs like TPMs it was quite trivial to long-term rootkit a box or specifically a network security appliance. Secure Boot with the keys in the hand of the owner of the hardware is a very useful tool to ensure you aren't silently running an owned kernel/etc. But it is like any story: A useful tool immediately becomes a weapon.

81 points by MobileVet 6y ago

Also only a single external display (6K@60Hz) for the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro as per the tech specs, which is a deal breaker for me. The Mac Mini supports one on thunderbolt also and a second at 4K 60Hz that has to be on the HDMI port. https://www.apple.com/au/macbook-pro-13/specs/ https://www.apple.com/au/macbook-pro-13/specs/ “Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display in millions of colours and: One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz”

rowanG077 6y ago
WTF. That's insane. Instant dealbreaker.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  Those people can still get an Intel-based Mac. For me, the dealbreaker is the 16GB memory limit - it's too little for comfort right now and I assume a 32 or 64GB machine is what it would take to carry me for the next five years or so.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    16GB memory is completely fine for me. I have had it the last 5 years and never had even close to saturation. But I do use two screens every day.
    - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
      That is the problem. In _2015_ I bought a tablet PC (!) which had 16GB of RAM. I've been having 16GB of RAM as standard/minimum for at least 5 years already. And it was on the same pricing that these 2020 machines which have 16GB of RAM _as a maximum_. I am not willing the entertain the idea "more RAM is no longer possible nor necessary", either. Software keeps creeping up as usual (MS Teams _by itself_ uses >2GB, and I have already complained dearly -- Teams is basically a glorified IRC client!). And next year if not this year already it's highly likely my phone will have 16GB of RAM. My phone! On my pocket! It's just ridiculous that a $1200 laptop has 8 GB, and it is just unbelievable it maxes out at 16GB. Looks designed to be thrown away next year.
      - simonh 6y ago
        What laptop manufacturers sell $1200 laptops that don't come with a base 8GB RAM option? I don't know any. Not Dell, or HP, or Lenovo. Apple still sells 13" Macbook Pros that go up to 32GB RAM, they're just Intel ones. If you need more than 16 GB in a Pro Mac, or a Mini you can still get it. So these options have not been taken off the table. The M1 machines simply offer a new tradeoff of smaller but faster memory if that works for you. Not every machine needs to offer every possible configuration.
        easde 6y ago
        Dell even sold a 4GB (!) version of the XPS 13 for $999 up until a few months ago.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >It's just ridiculous that a $1200 laptop has 8 GB Is it? Dell sells a $1499 laptop with 8GB. They also have 16GB models, but once you add specs equivalent to the new MacBook (at least i7, SSD, 13") the prices are $1299 and above (and you get a plastic box, not exactly the same build quality, trackpad, etc - though you do get a probabl better camera and more ports). https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/sr/laptops/intel-core-i7?appliedRefinements=6084,15674,23085,13248 https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/sr/laptops/inte...
    - rangoon626 6y ago
      I thought 16 GB never seemed saturated until I installed 64 GB. The OS will definitely use more if you have more. It seems like I use typically around 32 GB.
    - aldanor 6y ago
      To each his own, I'm close to saturating 2013 32G iMac almost every day. To me personally, anything less than 64-128G these days is a joke, especially given how cheap the ram is (non-integrated, of course).
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      I also think 16GB is a perfectly reasonable amount of memory (and even 8GB is fine on a low-end machine), but the fact that it's the limit is... troubling. I assume it'll be fixed in time, but, still.
    - jlokier 6y ago
      I thought my MBP's 16GB was fine. For a long time I rarely saw usage over 8GB. But for a few months everything was running rather slow and I put it down to other causes. One day I looked at the memory usage and saw it was using 10GB swap in addition to about 14.5GB RAM. And when I clicked things that responded slowly, the memory pressure meter was lighting up. Swapping was why it was slow. It's pretty fast swap, being on SSD, but it was the reason for the slowdowns. Probably not doing the SSD any good either (they wear out if written to constantly). Turns out Safari was using 8GB by itself. Restarting Safari helped (it's quick to restart which is nice). Safari, like Chrome, uses a lot of memory after opening a bunch of tabs because of using separate processes for each tab. I also use Firefox, but it uses 6-8GB for me too. Then there's my VM running my Linux dev environment. Now I only give it 4GB, which is a bit tight but I run some things remotely so it's ok. I had to shrink it from 6GB to get my performance back. Sometimes I'm foolish enough to have LibreOffice or MS Word open to look at documents. They aren't memory hogs, but when you've lost most of it to the browser(s) and dev VM, little things like office apps push it a few GB over the edge. I'm also running Emacs with quite a lot loaded into it, and many iTerms, but they use so little RAM compared with the big stuff, it barely registers. Nowadays I pay more attention to memory use, mostly use only one browser at a time, and restart more often. Even so, it's hovering around 5GB swap at the moment, and I haven't got much going on at the moment. Based on this, I know I can live with 16GB but it is restricting what I use and how I work now. 32GB would be let me stop thinking about RAM again, and I expect in a few years it will be nearly full, as usage tends to grow over time (as I found already). If I could buy a new MBP knowing I could upgrade the RAM I'd be happy to buy at 16GB, but as you can't upgrade, and I want a new laptop to last at least 5 years, I wouldn't be comfortable buying a dev machine at 16GB now.
- lastofthemojito 6y ago
  The memory limit was the dealbreaker for me, but I've seen people mention several others for their uses cases - no eGPUs, weak multi-monitor support out-of-the-box, etc. Apple obviously knows that a lot of people rely on those power-user features, so I'm sure at some point you'll be able to buy an ARM Mac with 128GB RAM that you can hook 6 monitors up to. I do think starting at the low end makes sense for Apple though. These machines will sell mostly to everyday folks who just use a handful of common apps - I wouldn't be surprised if Safari is the #1 app used on these machines. That gives Apple a start to this transition, without the reputational hit that might have occurred if they sold a bunch of machines to power users right away. We'll whine a little bit that the machines weren't what we wanted, and then we'll just wait for the M1X machines. But that's better than if we all bought M1X MacBook Pros yesterday and then were disappointed when a couple of crucial apps didn't work yet. This "flattens the curve" of application incompatibility reports if you will.
- coldtea 6y ago
  I'd say that's an exaggeration. Hannibal Lecter is insane. An entry-level laptop not supporting dual 4K screens (for whatever reason) sounds more tame, especially if the vendor has statistics that show that a tiny minority use theirs with such a setup even in the Intel version that does support it... The 16GB max memory is another problem, but again mostly not for the kind of users the machine is intended for.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    a €1.909,00 laptop(Cost of macbook pro 13 inch with 16gb of RAM) is not entry level. It's not even mid-tier. That is a high-end laptop. Entry level would at least be sub €600 laptop.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >a €1.909,00 laptop(Cost of macbook pro 13 inch with 16gb of RAM) is not entry level. For Apple it is. And for most other companies (Dell, Lenovo, Razer, etc). When you configure any kind of developer-class or workstation-class machine, it gets way above $2000 soon regardless of vendor. I wanted to try a Lenovo or Razer with compatible specs to a high end MacBook Pro 16 (to use if as a high end Linux workstation), and it gets into the same ballpark very quickly as you narrow the specs down. The sub €600 category Apple doesn't cater to.
      - rowanG077 6y ago
        Entry level and workstation class are completely orthogonal concepts. You can have an entry-level workstation. But the macbook pro 13 inch is not an entry-level workstation. It's not a workstation at all. It's also not an entry-level laptop. Razer, like Apple, doesn't offer entry level laptops. Apple and Razer simply don't operate in that market segment. But Dell and Lenovo do. Here are some examples of their entry level stuff: Dell: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/sr/laptops/inspiron-laptops https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/sr/laptops/insp... Lenovo: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/ideapad-100-series/lenovo-ideapad-s145-15ast/p/81N3001RUS https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/ideapad/ideapad-100-ser...
m-p-3 6y ago
I'm wondering if a DisplayLink docking station like the Dell D6000 would support more, if they manage to get the drivers working for it (or if Apple integrates DisplayLink support natively, which I doubt will happen).
- nhumrich 6y ago
  Apple has never supported Displaylink or even the DisplayPort 1.2 spec that allows daisy chaining using MST
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    I don't know about daisy chaining, but they definitely support MST because Dell's UP2414Q uses that to run its 4K @ 60Hz mode
    - wlesieutre 6y ago
      Based on downvotes, I guess people don't believe me. Here's a support document from 2014 explaining the capability: http://web.archive.org/web/20140628022826/http://support.apple.com/kb/HT6008 http://web.archive.org/web/20140628022826/http://support.app... Single displays driven as two half panels over MST has been supported since 10.9.3, including the UP2414Q that I mentioned. Otherwise, DisplayPort 1.2 could only give the screens enough bandwidth to run at 30 Hz. > MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) or Mac Pro (Late 2013) also support 60 Hz displays using multi-stream transport (MST). These displays need to be manually configured to use MST. Follow the steps below to use the display's built-in controls to enable this feature. > [display specific instructions omitted] > Your Mac will automatically detect an MST-enabled display. However, your display may require a firmware update to support 60Hz operation. Please contact your display vendor for details. If your specific DisplayPort display is not listed above, check with the display’s manufacturer for compatibility information. Having used that Dell screen on both OS X and Windows, I can tell you this MST capability was better supported on Mac than it was on Windows. On a Mac it worked perfectly. On Windows you'd frequently get half of the screen either black or shifted sideways, creating several visible seams in the image. Not my screenshots, but see here for examples: https://www.dell.com/community/Monitors/UP2414Q-Rev-A03-Wake-Up-Half-Screen-Wrong-Screen-resolution/td-p/4745902 https://www.dell.com/community/Monitors/UP2414Q-Rev-A03-Wake...
m463 6y ago
We're not the target market. I suspect what macs may become to many of us is the trusted machine we buy for child/spouse/parent, then run off to our linux machine. I was going to say windows for games, but it seems I wasn't paying attention and linux machines run lots of games well nowadays.

Shivetya 6y ago

I really hope some of the limitations we are seeing with the M1 chip being from a slow roll out to the new technology and not some sign of a new wall. the biggest concern to me is the on die memory. while nice from a performance perspective I do not understand how they will do this going forward for true Pro models where users want 64g or even more memory. I also await their on dGPU solution. A few users have also commented on the lack of ports and while I have not dug into this, are the controllers for these also all integrated in the chip?

capableweb 6y ago
I think you (and users like you) are simply not the target customer for Apple anymore. They used to aim for the professional market segment, where people are using multiple displays, need external GPU for creative work and other external gear, and computers that don't throttle their CPU that easily. But if the last few years of Apple's new hardware is telling us anything, is that Apple is now strictly casual-oriented, and if you're in any capacity a professional, you need to start thinking about getting a PC again.
- physicsguy 6y ago
  Bit of a problem if you want to write iPhone or Mac apps though...
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    It's a good thing their Intel machines go all the way to 28 Xeon cores and 1.5TB if RAM then...
    - physicsguy 6y ago
      Sure, and I imagine the ARM ones will in time - but it moves the MBP further along the admittedly already in progress line of it not really being a Pro machine anymore.
      - 6y ago

einarfd 6y ago

It looks like what Apple did was take their cellphone Arm processors. Do the minimal changes to get it to work in a laptop, and jammed that into laptops they already had. Which seems to me, to be the right strategy, but you do then end up with some weird limitations. I expect these issues to be sorted in the future generations of Apple silicon laptops.

stuff4ben 6y ago
Yeah, like most first gen Apple gear, it's probably wise to hold off until they work the kinks out. That being said, my MacBook Air is getting a little long in the tooth so I may upgrade sooner rather than later.
- alistairSH 6y ago
  I'm torn between a refurb Intel-based MBA or a new M1-based MBA. Or making a leap over to the 12" iPad Pro.
  - lucian1900 6y ago
    I got myself a used iPad Air 3 with a keyboard. Besides programming, I’ve yet to encounter serious limitations.
    - alistairSH 6y ago
      Yeah, the iPad Air is tempting, but I want a "big" screen for photo editing while traveling. If there was a 12" Air, I'd already own it.
      - easde 6y ago
        Refurb 12" Macbook? Wish Apple would reintroduce those with the M1. Awesome form factor, held back by Intel's anemic Core M CPUs.
        6y ago

seotut2 6y ago

But I assume the SoC or the processor itself does have PCIe expansion ports, right? Internal GPUs should in theory work should the part be sold by itself.

verroq 6y ago
I doubt they’d implement PCIe since they don’t need that for their baked in GPU to talk to their baked in CPU.
- avian 6y ago
  The slides shows an external "Thunderbold controller" chip. Seems like something they would have hanging off a PCIe bus.
  - gumby 6y ago
    Minor point: they could be talking to the controller itself over some other internal bus. But as TB is PCIe this comment isn't intended to contradict your core point.
- crgwbr 6y ago
  The slides explicitly mentioned PCIe support. They just don’t make any M1 machines with standard slots yet.
- solarkraft 6y ago
  The iPhone talks to its storage through NVMe, which is based on PCIe, suggesting to me that they already have the infrastructure.
webmobdev 6y ago
Unless Apple starts selling some overpriced PCIe devices, don't hold your hopes up on this. Ram is soldered / integrated into the SoC. Tomorrow even the SSD will be (if it isn't already). Ultimately you will not be able to upgrade anything, just like your iPhone or iPad.
6y ago

jmuguy 6y ago

That's distressing to hear. For many months I struggled with performance issues and throttling on my Macbook Pro (15 inch, mid 2017). I went down a bunch of rabbit holes, messing with Time Machine backup, paranoia about specific apps pegging the CPU. The issue with one side of the thunderbolt ports running hotter than the other, and maybe that was causing the system to heat up to the point of throttling. Finally I discovered it was my external monitors - I have have 2 4k monitors connected and I use display scaling on both. This apparently strains the integrated GPU, heats up the system, and caused the throttling. As ridiculous as it was to purchase an external enclosure and video card - that solved the issue. Now the system runs flawlessly.

masklinn 6y ago
> Finally I discovered it was my external monitors - I have have 2 4k monitors connected and I use display scaling on both. M1 (or at least the macbooks) only supports a single external display, problem solved!
rickyc091 6y ago
This problem still occurs with the latest MBPs even with one 4k monitor. As you mentioned, it's a heat issue. Once I turn on the AC, it starts to pick up speed again.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  It's far worse on the new ones (18W vs 8W) and the problem occurs on almost all monitors, even 2560x1440.
alisonkisk 6y ago
The integrated GPU isn't the problem. The MBP only uses the dGPU for external monitors. The problem is that the dGPU driver/firmware/whatever is broken so it runs at a minimum of 8W even when there's no work to do, overloading the thermals. The 2019 16" MPB made this problem far worse, raising the minimum dGPU to 18W, making external displays almost completely unusable for more than 1hr at a time unless you put the laptop aside in an external cooling solution (stand and fans) where you can't ergonomically use the integrated keyboard.

GeekyBear 6y ago

I'm kind of shocked that they got an integrated Thunderbolt controller working as fast as they did, even if version one doesn't support every feature. Apple is shipping an integrated Thunderbolt controller before Intel does with Tigerlake.

vetinari 6y ago
Intel Tiger Lake machines are already being sold. XPS 13 9310, for example.
- GeekyBear 6y ago
  Well, what do you know. PC Magazine just reviewed it yesterday.
wil421 6y ago
Thunderbolt is one of the things keeping me on intel for now. I am happy Apple added it but not sure Apple Silicon can handle the video editing and transcoding at the speed I’d like it to.
hajile 6y ago
Ice Lake had integrated Thunderbolt last year.
gumby 6y ago
I'm actually excited by this aspect, even if incomplete. This means it can come to future iPads as well.
bartvk 6y ago
Yeah, I always figured this would be one of the major obstacles to overcome. In hindsight, it's now clear why there are so much Apple people in these USB-C standards documents. Do we know whose IP they use? And is it integrated on die, or integrated in the package of the SoC?

jmull 6y ago

I wouldn’t read too much into this, at least not at this point. Same for some of the other technical limitations. The Apple slotted these M1 macs into the entry-level position for their lower-end models. One thing that lets them do is focus on fundamentals of this migration first and take on more sophisticated use-cases over time. Support for more RAM, more external displays, etc. is coming.

dev_tty01 6y ago
I agree this will improve, but I think the previous commenter was referring to these particular models. I was considering the 13 inch until i noticed only 2 Thunderbolt/USB 4 ports. There is a $100 discount from the equivalently configured Intel Pro. I guess that is for the external USB4 hub you'll need. The lack of a 32 GB option also gives me pause. Looks like I am holding out for the 16 inch with the M1X...

selsta 6y ago

Is this really surprising? Apple said the transition is going to take 2 years. As predicted, they only updated their entry level devices yesterday. More pro machines (e.g. 16" MBP) will probably get announced Q1 - Q2 2021. These will also have more available RAM, support more displays, etc.)

aldanor 6y ago
It almost feels like they've intentionally limited this batch to 16G so that next year they can say "We've Quadrupled the RAM!"

pwinnski 6y ago

This seems very, very much like a first generation product, but I hope future iteration of their M-chip SoCs support more RAM, more ports, eGPUs, etc. I'm pretty sure they'll support more RAM and more ports and more displays in the future, but I'm worried about the eGPU support. Pulling a GPU into the SoC might make them think they've got that covered, but it won't be enough.

whywhywhywhy 6y ago

Showing Cinema4D front and centre during your reveal without being able to take advantage of high end gpus is strange.

gumby 6y ago
Not if your objective is to demonstrate that your onboard GPU is up to the task.

sschueller 6y ago

This and the eventual lockout of non-signed apps makes this a no go. I'm not supporting a device that will give the EU the power to force removal of apps that don't have an encryption back door [1]. Same goes for apple's app store. At least I can still side load android apps for now. Thanks to Apple and everyone copying these "for security" features we are rapidly loosing our democracy and freedoms. 1984 is already here and most want it. Sadly no one seems to realize that in these last few acts of terrorism in France and Austria the purpatraitors where known. In fact some where already in prison before. Reading their IMs wouldn't have made any difference with the amount that was known and the incompetent government bureaucracy. Killing encryption won't fix that. [1] https://www.ccc.de/de/updates/2020/cryptowars-2020 https://www.ccc.de/de/updates/2020/cryptowars-2020

daxelrod 6y ago
Have you heard any additional news about "the eventual lockout of non-signed apps" on Apple Silicon? I'm curious if they announced anything besides the behavior we already know about in Big Sur.
chokeartist 6y ago
Your criticism is legitimate, and I am not buying a new Macbook with the M1 for the same reasons. I will however say there is a legitimate, non-crippleware reason: Secure Boot (device boot/kernel integrity). Before we had basic constructs like TPMs it was quite trivial to long-term rootkit a box or specifically a network security appliance. Secure Boot with the keys in the hand of the owner of the hardware is a very useful tool to ensure you aren't silently running an owned kernel/etc. But it is like any story: A useful tool immediately becomes a weapon.