7 ms·

Rumour has it doing a PhD might actually be a rewarding experience in its own right, and not derive its value solely from the possibility of remaining in academ

Rumour has it doing a PhD might actually be a rewarding experience in its own right, and not derive its value solely from the possibility of remaining in academia.

segfaultbuserr 6y ago
Remind me of an old Usenet joke. > The upgrade path to the most powerful and satisfying computer: > * Pocket calculator > * Commodore Pet / Apple II / TRS 80 / Commodore 64 / Timex Sinclair > (Choose any of the above) > * IBM PC > * Apple Macintosh > * Fastest workstation of the time (HP, DEC, IBM, SGI: your choice) > * Minicomputer (HP, DEC, IBM, SGI: your choice) > * Mainframe (IBM, Cray, DEC: your choice) > And then you reach the pinnacle of modern computing facilities: > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxG R A D U A T E xxxxxxxxx S T U D E N T S xxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  I've encountered a variation on this, he programmed in a very high-level programming language called "graduate student". * https://mathoverflow.net/a/11135 https://mathoverflow.net/a/11135
SiempreViernes 6y ago
What, you want to ascribe value to learning itself? But it's so hard to measure! Simpler then to ignore it and use lifetime wages as the only relevant measure.
- ramraj07 6y ago
  What, you want me to be happy that I started my PhD in 2009, finished in 2017 when I was 30, but I suppose I did occassionally learn something interesting in between browsing reddit and watching buffy, so I shouldn't complain that most of my colleagues are worth in the millions while I'm finally trying to make myself in my first real job? Sure sounds like a good deal.
  - vagrantJin 6y ago
    I've seen a guy peddle shoes become an instagram star and go on to put said shoes in boutiques. Moral of the story, unless you are born wealthy you have to make your own luck.
  - gyom 6y ago
    I'm sorry that that was your PhD experience. It's a pity that enthusiastic students end up there, often because they're not given the right environment to thrive (e.g. a good lab and a supervisor that cares). There isn't much to say to respond to that, apart that it seems to me that, in a parallel universe, you might have had a more fulfilling experience, or you might have cut your losses and walked away sooner. That's the cruel aspect of the PhD. It really seems like a lot of important things are outside of one's control, especially when it comes to important factors in mental health. Nobody's starting a PhD with the goal of sinking hours into Reddit and Buffy because they feel awful about their PhD experience.
  - tmp5690 6y ago
    Are we surprised that browsing reddit isn't a path to millions? What's your point?
kortilla 6y ago
Cool, that’s not how it’s sold though, nor is it how the students are trained.
jankotek 6y ago
If it is just a hobby, why bother with expensive university? Most people can perform perfectly valid research from their bedroom or garage.
- bloodorange 6y ago
  "If it is just a hobby" What, from the post you are replying to, leads you to this? If it was not an intentional misrepresentation, I am curious about the line of thought leading to this.
  - abhinav22 6y ago
    The post above it (copied below). It’s a very valid counterpoint imo :-) Rumour has it doing a PhD might actually be a rewarding experience in its own right, and not derive its value solely from the possibility of remaining in academia.
    - pmyteh 6y ago
      It is quite possible to do research as a hobby. It is very difficult to do proper research training as a hobby, and essentially impossible to do a research apprenticeship (which is what a PhD is) outside of an environment where you are being supervised by other PhDs. If you have a spouse or close friend who's prepared to supervise you, fine - but otherwise it's likely to be at a university or research lab. Coupled to that, PhD slots are generally funded, so university at PhD level is normally less 'expensive' and more 'opportunity costs'.
- thomasahle 6y ago
  > If it is just a hobby, why bother with expensive university? Perhaps it allows you to work closely with other researchers in your field. Also note that PhD students usually don't pay tuition. > Most people can perform perfectly valid research from their bedroom or garage. This seems pretty unfunded. Unless you mean most people who have already done a PhD.
  - 6y ago
einpoklum 6y ago
It's also a harrowing experience that causes clinical depression in many.
Traster 6y ago
It's fine to say that doing a PhD isn't an economic activity, in which case there's little relevance talking about the economic factors involved. That's fine. It's difficult to marry the high-minded pursuit of education in and of itself with the actual reality of being a PhD student though.
neuronic 6y ago
A PhD is slave work and exploitation as 'right of passage'. Afterwards, it continues with post-docs. It's all about names and prestige from here on. I saw enough of it to make me question ethics and morality in that space which is more akin to investment banking than the sort of ideal young students are led to believe in. It's not all for the lofty goal of broadening knowledge. That's merely a side effect. It's really about grants and impact scores because that's how scientists make a living. E.g. the mental gymnastics I have seen to make data fit enough for that Cell publication are possible because the enormous complexities of microbiology allow for it and these possibilities are actively exploited because that's how you make money and talent flow. Otherwise, impact scores would also benefit from science that finds out how thing's don't work. That's important knowledge too - but none that collects grants. Science really isn't a more ethical field than any given industry and one shouldn't build their career on such idealisms.
- quietbritishjim 6y ago
  Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's not. It would be wrong to unconditionally assert either way. I did a pure mathematics PhD and was given a general area to look at and a problem to solve but that was really just a starting point, I had the flexibility to solve something related so long as it was interesting. The papers I published had my sole authorship; not even my supervisor's name was on them (except in the acknowledgements). I spent much of my time, for several years, in a room on my own with nothing more than a pencil and paper (except occasionally a book). All I did was sit there and think hard. It was glorious, and definitely not slave labour. Postscript: I did not go into academia. The PhD helped me get (and do) my job afterwards, possibly not as much as if I had worked in industry that whole time, but it was a fulfilling life experience.
  - ocfnash 6y ago
    I also did pure mathematics, and this summarises my experiences perfectly.
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    Pure mathematics I believe it's a field on its own: for one, you have salaries but no huge costs with equipment/material. The work is also more independent and not connected to anything outside of mathematics in principle (though the work might evolve to something interesting to huge backers, think Number Theory or Control Theory/Finance/etc)
AussieWog93 6y ago
Not my PhD. We were explicitly told by a "motivational" speaker about how no-one would care about what we wrote, and we were basically just going through the motions and practicing "real" research. The general impression I got from the higher-ups was that the speaker was right.
- amcoastal 6y ago
  Depends on what your chosen research is... there is no law stopping PhD candidates from publishing impactful papers.
  - AussieWog93 6y ago
    Of course, it depends entirely on your cohort/field. My point was that it's extremely common for PhD students to just go through the motions and pretend to be doing impactful work. There is at best a tacit approval of treating your studies as "pretend research". At worst, depending on how the grants/scholarships are doled out and the personality of the supervisor, there is active pressure to go down a certain path that both you and your supervisor know will not produce impactful research but instead maximise your probability of publishing a "passable" thesis. This is not in Lesbian Dance Theory, this is in the Faculty of Engineering at a top-ranked university in Australia.
    - dasudasu 6y ago
      As a reviewer, it’s when you see one of those papers where the impact is not so clear, and at best is extremely incremental or just a slightly different take on something that has already been done. You can tell a grad student spent a lot of effort to come up with this. If you reject it, you’re just going to make his/her graduation that much harder. It’s like looking at a very involved homework. The alternative is to gatekeep the field a lot more and make people drop from their PhD midway through.
    - _jal 6y ago
      > My point was that it's extremely common for PhD students to just go through the motions I think you misspelled 'human'. Of course people do that. And of course there are places to 'practice pretend research' - we've just spent multiple generations flipping universities into something much closer to businesses. Business caters to customers, what do you expect them to do?
morelandjs 6y ago
Best thing I did when I started my PhD was heavily vet a PhD supervisor in advance, using connections established through undergrad research. Yes, choose a school with a good name, but Dave yourself some pain and arrange an advisor before you start your program!
refurb 6y ago
Not too rewarding when you're left with no real way to earn a living after. The pursuit of knowledge is great and all, but it doesn't pay the rent.
MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
> Rumour has it doing a PhD might actually be a rewarding experience in its own right Have you ever met a single person that said so? Because I haven’t.
- rootlocus 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25057854 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25057854 Now you have.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  I think a PhD is a rewarding experience in its own right. It’s hard work but many worthwhile things are hard work.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- analog31 6y ago
  Me. Granted, it was a quarter century ago. And while I think it was rewarding, I'd never say that it's without risk, or that doctoral education isn't in need of substantial reform.
- searine 6y ago
  Hi. I fit that category.
- abecode 6y ago
  Hi, I don't regret my PhD in retrospect (I did have plenty of regrets and misgivings along the way). The PhD gave me a lot of free education (and not having to worry much about getting W's on classes, so less fear of failure), free travel to conferences, and learning things the hard way. Learning to program helped me get a job after graduation. I wasn't planning to get back into academia but two years ago I got a teaching job somewhat out of the blue, which wouldn't have been possible without the degree (it's not a research university like my alma mater--I don't think I would have wanted to get back into that world). The jobs in industry after the PhD helped me pay off my undergrad student loans. I don't know if you can think of it as being a rewarding experience in it's own right but it is something of intangible value and opportunity. My Grandma always said that no one can take your education away from you.
hrktb 6y ago
Doesn't this deepen the rift between people trying to make a living from it and independantly wealthy people focusing on learning ? It can't be great to be pitted against people who can forgo money altogether.
sfg 6y ago
If you removed the inner core of high reward jobs, then would the rest of the structure discussed remain unchanged? If so, then would the numbers filling up the outer ring go up or down? The economic pattern is both interesting and explanatory, even if it does not fully explain every agent's motivation to participate within the system examined.

Rumour has it doing a PhD might actually be a rewarding experience in its own right, and not derive its value solely from the possibility of remaining in academia.

segfaultbuserr 6y ago

Remind me of an old Usenet joke. > The upgrade path to the most powerful and satisfying computer: > * Pocket calculator > * Commodore Pet / Apple II / TRS 80 / Commodore 64 / Timex Sinclair > (Choose any of the above) > * IBM PC > * Apple Macintosh > * Fastest workstation of the time (HP, DEC, IBM, SGI: your choice) > * Minicomputer (HP, DEC, IBM, SGI: your choice) > * Mainframe (IBM, Cray, DEC: your choice) > And then you reach the pinnacle of modern computing facilities: > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxG R A D U A T E xxxxxxxxx S T U D E N T S xxxxxxxxxx > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
I've encountered a variation on this, he programmed in a very high-level programming language called "graduate student". * https://mathoverflow.net/a/11135 https://mathoverflow.net/a/11135

SiempreViernes 6y ago

What, you want to ascribe value to learning itself? But it's so hard to measure! Simpler then to ignore it and use lifetime wages as the only relevant measure.

ramraj07 6y ago
What, you want me to be happy that I started my PhD in 2009, finished in 2017 when I was 30, but I suppose I did occassionally learn something interesting in between browsing reddit and watching buffy, so I shouldn't complain that most of my colleagues are worth in the millions while I'm finally trying to make myself in my first real job? Sure sounds like a good deal.
- vagrantJin 6y ago
  I've seen a guy peddle shoes become an instagram star and go on to put said shoes in boutiques. Moral of the story, unless you are born wealthy you have to make your own luck.
- gyom 6y ago
  I'm sorry that that was your PhD experience. It's a pity that enthusiastic students end up there, often because they're not given the right environment to thrive (e.g. a good lab and a supervisor that cares). There isn't much to say to respond to that, apart that it seems to me that, in a parallel universe, you might have had a more fulfilling experience, or you might have cut your losses and walked away sooner. That's the cruel aspect of the PhD. It really seems like a lot of important things are outside of one's control, especially when it comes to important factors in mental health. Nobody's starting a PhD with the goal of sinking hours into Reddit and Buffy because they feel awful about their PhD experience.
- tmp5690 6y ago
  Are we surprised that browsing reddit isn't a path to millions? What's your point?

kortilla 6y ago

Cool, that’s not how it’s sold though, nor is it how the students are trained.

jankotek 6y ago

If it is just a hobby, why bother with expensive university? Most people can perform perfectly valid research from their bedroom or garage.

bloodorange 6y ago
"If it is just a hobby" What, from the post you are replying to, leads you to this? If it was not an intentional misrepresentation, I am curious about the line of thought leading to this.
- abhinav22 6y ago
  The post above it (copied below). It’s a very valid counterpoint imo :-) Rumour has it doing a PhD might actually be a rewarding experience in its own right, and not derive its value solely from the possibility of remaining in academia.
  - pmyteh 6y ago
    It is quite possible to do research as a hobby. It is very difficult to do proper research training as a hobby, and essentially impossible to do a research apprenticeship (which is what a PhD is) outside of an environment where you are being supervised by other PhDs. If you have a spouse or close friend who's prepared to supervise you, fine - but otherwise it's likely to be at a university or research lab. Coupled to that, PhD slots are generally funded, so university at PhD level is normally less 'expensive' and more 'opportunity costs'.
thomasahle 6y ago
> If it is just a hobby, why bother with expensive university? Perhaps it allows you to work closely with other researchers in your field. Also note that PhD students usually don't pay tuition. > Most people can perform perfectly valid research from their bedroom or garage. This seems pretty unfunded. Unless you mean most people who have already done a PhD.
- 6y ago

einpoklum 6y ago

It's also a harrowing experience that causes clinical depression in many.

Traster 6y ago

It's fine to say that doing a PhD isn't an economic activity, in which case there's little relevance talking about the economic factors involved. That's fine. It's difficult to marry the high-minded pursuit of education in and of itself with the actual reality of being a PhD student though.

neuronic 6y ago

A PhD is slave work and exploitation as 'right of passage'. Afterwards, it continues with post-docs. It's all about names and prestige from here on. I saw enough of it to make me question ethics and morality in that space which is more akin to investment banking than the sort of ideal young students are led to believe in. It's not all for the lofty goal of broadening knowledge. That's merely a side effect. It's really about grants and impact scores because that's how scientists make a living. E.g. the mental gymnastics I have seen to make data fit enough for that Cell publication are possible because the enormous complexities of microbiology allow for it and these possibilities are actively exploited because that's how you make money and talent flow. Otherwise, impact scores would also benefit from science that finds out how thing's don't work. That's important knowledge too - but none that collects grants. Science really isn't a more ethical field than any given industry and one shouldn't build their career on such idealisms.

quietbritishjim 6y ago
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's not. It would be wrong to unconditionally assert either way. I did a pure mathematics PhD and was given a general area to look at and a problem to solve but that was really just a starting point, I had the flexibility to solve something related so long as it was interesting. The papers I published had my sole authorship; not even my supervisor's name was on them (except in the acknowledgements). I spent much of my time, for several years, in a room on my own with nothing more than a pencil and paper (except occasionally a book). All I did was sit there and think hard. It was glorious, and definitely not slave labour. Postscript: I did not go into academia. The PhD helped me get (and do) my job afterwards, possibly not as much as if I had worked in industry that whole time, but it was a fulfilling life experience.
- ocfnash 6y ago
  I also did pure mathematics, and this summarises my experiences perfectly.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Pure mathematics I believe it's a field on its own: for one, you have salaries but no huge costs with equipment/material. The work is also more independent and not connected to anything outside of mathematics in principle (though the work might evolve to something interesting to huge backers, think Number Theory or Control Theory/Finance/etc)

AussieWog93 6y ago

Not my PhD. We were explicitly told by a "motivational" speaker about how no-one would care about what we wrote, and we were basically just going through the motions and practicing "real" research. The general impression I got from the higher-ups was that the speaker was right.

amcoastal 6y ago
Depends on what your chosen research is... there is no law stopping PhD candidates from publishing impactful papers.
- AussieWog93 6y ago
  Of course, it depends entirely on your cohort/field. My point was that it's extremely common for PhD students to just go through the motions and pretend to be doing impactful work. There is at best a tacit approval of treating your studies as "pretend research". At worst, depending on how the grants/scholarships are doled out and the personality of the supervisor, there is active pressure to go down a certain path that both you and your supervisor know will not produce impactful research but instead maximise your probability of publishing a "passable" thesis. This is not in Lesbian Dance Theory, this is in the Faculty of Engineering at a top-ranked university in Australia.
  - dasudasu 6y ago
    As a reviewer, it’s when you see one of those papers where the impact is not so clear, and at best is extremely incremental or just a slightly different take on something that has already been done. You can tell a grad student spent a lot of effort to come up with this. If you reject it, you’re just going to make his/her graduation that much harder. It’s like looking at a very involved homework. The alternative is to gatekeep the field a lot more and make people drop from their PhD midway through.
  - _jal 6y ago
    > My point was that it's extremely common for PhD students to just go through the motions I think you misspelled 'human'. Of course people do that. And of course there are places to 'practice pretend research' - we've just spent multiple generations flipping universities into something much closer to businesses. Business caters to customers, what do you expect them to do?

morelandjs 6y ago

Best thing I did when I started my PhD was heavily vet a PhD supervisor in advance, using connections established through undergrad research. Yes, choose a school with a good name, but Dave yourself some pain and arrange an advisor before you start your program!

refurb 6y ago

Not too rewarding when you're left with no real way to earn a living after. The pursuit of knowledge is great and all, but it doesn't pay the rent.

MrBuddyCasino 6y ago

> Rumour has it doing a PhD might actually be a rewarding experience in its own right Have you ever met a single person that said so? Because I haven’t.

rootlocus 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25057854 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25057854 Now you have.
chrisseaton 6y ago
I think a PhD is a rewarding experience in its own right. It’s hard work but many worthwhile things are hard work.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
analog31 6y ago
Me. Granted, it was a quarter century ago. And while I think it was rewarding, I'd never say that it's without risk, or that doctoral education isn't in need of substantial reform.
searine 6y ago
Hi. I fit that category.
abecode 6y ago
Hi, I don't regret my PhD in retrospect (I did have plenty of regrets and misgivings along the way). The PhD gave me a lot of free education (and not having to worry much about getting W's on classes, so less fear of failure), free travel to conferences, and learning things the hard way. Learning to program helped me get a job after graduation. I wasn't planning to get back into academia but two years ago I got a teaching job somewhat out of the blue, which wouldn't have been possible without the degree (it's not a research university like my alma mater--I don't think I would have wanted to get back into that world). The jobs in industry after the PhD helped me pay off my undergrad student loans. I don't know if you can think of it as being a rewarding experience in it's own right but it is something of intangible value and opportunity. My Grandma always said that no one can take your education away from you.

hrktb 6y ago

Doesn't this deepen the rift between people trying to make a living from it and independantly wealthy people focusing on learning ? It can't be great to be pitted against people who can forgo money altogether.

sfg 6y ago

If you removed the inner core of high reward jobs, then would the rest of the structure discussed remain unchanged? If so, then would the numbers filling up the outer ring go up or down? The economic pattern is both interesting and explanatory, even if it does not fully explain every agent's motivation to participate within the system examined.