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I had a quad-core Mini with 16GB in 2011. Almost 10 years later we should be much further, especially as the Intel Mini allows up to 64GB. (Which you probably w

by _ph_ 6y ago

I had a quad-core Mini with 16GB in 2011. Almost 10 years later we should be much further, especially as the Intel Mini allows up to 64GB. (Which you probably would use only if you upgraded the memory yourself).

tiernano 6y ago
Also, lack of 10gbe is a big let down...
seltzered_ 6y ago
You have to factor in possible memory management improvements with the M1 chip, and ability to run iOS apps instead: https://twitter.com/jckarter/status/1326240072522293248 https://twitter.com/jckarter/status/1326240072522293248
- _ph_ 6y ago
  That is fine with the Air. But for a small desktop computer not to support more than 16GB in 2021? Its predecessor allowed up to 64GB (and possibly more with suitable modules).
derefr 6y ago
We're not any further in terms of capacity per dollar, but we are advancing in terms of speed. The M1's memory is LPDDR4X-4266 or LPDDR5-5500 (depending on the model, I guess?) which is about double the frequency of the memory in the Intel Macs. Apparently, this alone seems to account for a lot of the M1's perf wins — see e.g. the explanation under "Geekbench, Single-Core" here: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu-apple_m1-1804 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu-apple_m1-1804 Bleeding-edge-clocked DRAM is a lot more costly per GB to produce than middle-of-the-pack-fast DRAM. (Which is weird, given that process shrinks should make things cheaper; but there's a DRAM cartel, so maybe they've been lazy about process shrinks.)
- zeristor 6y ago
  No virtualisation -> I’m guessing no Docker. Am I missing something? Mind you with 16Gb, Docker won’t be that useful.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    Why do you think there is no virtualisation? Apple showed Linux running in a VM during WWDC already.
    - zeristor 6y ago
      I missed that, I assumed virtualisation was dependent on Intel VT. Then again I would have expected them to have discussed it as much as the video editing. I am guessing that they’d need a M2 type chipset for accessing more RAM for that. Or maybe they’ve got a new way to do virtualisation since that is such a key thing these days. Edit: thanks for pointing that out though, that’s why I mentioned it https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23922846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23922846 And the mentioned Virtio here: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Virtio http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Virtio How well this fits in with current virtualisation would be interesting to find out; I guess this will be for a later version of Big Sur, with a new beefier M2 chip.
    - deadbunny 6y ago
      Are they virtualizing x86 though? Having Docker running arm64 on laptops and Docker x86 on servers completely nullifies the main usecase of Docker imo.
      - als0 6y ago
        But you can run Docker on arm64 servers!
- dralley 6y ago
  Not all types of processes shrink equally well. Apparently DRAM and NAND do not shrink as well because in addition to transistors in both cases you need to store some kind of charge in a way that is measurable later on - and the less material present, the less charge you are able to store, and the harder it is to measure.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  > The M1's memory is LPDDR4X-4266 or LPDDR5-5500 (depending on the model, I guess?) which is about double the frequency of the memory in the Intel Macs. That's a high frequency, but having two LPDDR chips means at most you have 64 bits being transmitted at a time, right? Intel macs (at least the one I checked), along with most x86 laptops and desktops, transfer 128 bits at a time. > Apparently, this alone seems to account for a lot of the M1's perf wins — see e.g. the explanation under "Geekbench, Single-Core" here That's a vague and general statement that site always says, so I wouldn't put much stock into it.
innagadadavida 6y ago
From their schematic, the two DRAM modules were directly on the SoC - possibly to improve bandwidth etc. So it looks like this cannot be upgraded / replaced. That said, it might be worth it to look past the specs and just use your applications on these machines to see how they perform. SSD storage is much faster these days and if the new OS has decently optimized paging, performance will be decent as well.
wlesieutre 6y ago
The intel Mac Mini is still available with the same 8GB in its base model, but configurable up to 16/32/64. RAM is definitely the biggest weakness of these new Macs. On iOS they can get away with less RAM than the rest of the market by killing apps, relaunching them fast, and having severely restricted background processes. On Mac they won't have that luxury. At least they have fast SSDs to help with big pagefiles. With the heterogeneous memory, your 8GB computer doesn't even have its whole 8GB of main system memory. When the touchbar MBP launched in 2016 people were already complaining that it couldn't spec up to 32GB like the competition. Four years later, and it's still capped at 16GB. Hopefully they can grow this for next year's models.
- jdeibele 6y ago
  And the Intel Mac Mini had user-replaceable RAM. Tired of fan noise and slow response, I went from a 4 Thunderbolt 2018 MacBook Pro with only 8GB of RAM to a 2018 Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM (originally 8GB, bought the RAM from Amazon and upgraded it). The difference was incredible
  - pbronez 6y ago
    8GB ram is just soul crushing - even for basic office workloads. I need 16GB minimum.
    - 72deluxe 6y ago
      What in a basic office needs 8GB RAM?! I used Word 6.0 under Windows 95 with 64MB of RAM! Have you looked at Activity Monitor to see what is butchering your memory?!
      - Bud 6y ago
        Well, for starters, the most obvious answer, which is Office 365. Have you glanced at the RAM use of those apps, ever? Second: web browsers, which can easily grab 5-10GB by themselves or even more if RAM is available. So in other words: everything.
suyash 6y ago
16GB limit with the latest MBP M1 13inch seems a big downer, I will wait for 16 inch MBP refresh now.

by _ph_ 6y ago

tiernano 6y ago

Also, lack of 10gbe is a big let down...

seltzered_ 6y ago

You have to factor in possible memory management improvements with the M1 chip, and ability to run iOS apps instead: https://twitter.com/jckarter/status/1326240072522293248 https://twitter.com/jckarter/status/1326240072522293248

_ph_ 6y ago
That is fine with the Air. But for a small desktop computer not to support more than 16GB in 2021? Its predecessor allowed up to 64GB (and possibly more with suitable modules).

derefr 6y ago

We're not any further in terms of capacity per dollar, but we are advancing in terms of speed. The M1's memory is LPDDR4X-4266 or LPDDR5-5500 (depending on the model, I guess?) which is about double the frequency of the memory in the Intel Macs. Apparently, this alone seems to account for a lot of the M1's perf wins — see e.g. the explanation under "Geekbench, Single-Core" here: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu-apple_m1-1804 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu-apple_m1-1804 Bleeding-edge-clocked DRAM is a lot more costly per GB to produce than middle-of-the-pack-fast DRAM. (Which is weird, given that process shrinks should make things cheaper; but there's a DRAM cartel, so maybe they've been lazy about process shrinks.)

zeristor 6y ago
No virtualisation -> I’m guessing no Docker. Am I missing something? Mind you with 16Gb, Docker won’t be that useful.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Why do you think there is no virtualisation? Apple showed Linux running in a VM during WWDC already.
  - zeristor 6y ago
    I missed that, I assumed virtualisation was dependent on Intel VT. Then again I would have expected them to have discussed it as much as the video editing. I am guessing that they’d need a M2 type chipset for accessing more RAM for that. Or maybe they’ve got a new way to do virtualisation since that is such a key thing these days. Edit: thanks for pointing that out though, that’s why I mentioned it https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23922846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23922846 And the mentioned Virtio here: http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Virtio http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Virtio How well this fits in with current virtualisation would be interesting to find out; I guess this will be for a later version of Big Sur, with a new beefier M2 chip.
  - deadbunny 6y ago
    Are they virtualizing x86 though? Having Docker running arm64 on laptops and Docker x86 on servers completely nullifies the main usecase of Docker imo.
    - als0 6y ago
      But you can run Docker on arm64 servers!
dralley 6y ago
Not all types of processes shrink equally well. Apparently DRAM and NAND do not shrink as well because in addition to transistors in both cases you need to store some kind of charge in a way that is measurable later on - and the less material present, the less charge you are able to store, and the harder it is to measure.
Dylan16807 6y ago
> The M1's memory is LPDDR4X-4266 or LPDDR5-5500 (depending on the model, I guess?) which is about double the frequency of the memory in the Intel Macs. That's a high frequency, but having two LPDDR chips means at most you have 64 bits being transmitted at a time, right? Intel macs (at least the one I checked), along with most x86 laptops and desktops, transfer 128 bits at a time. > Apparently, this alone seems to account for a lot of the M1's perf wins — see e.g. the explanation under "Geekbench, Single-Core" here That's a vague and general statement that site always says, so I wouldn't put much stock into it.

innagadadavida 6y ago

From their schematic, the two DRAM modules were directly on the SoC - possibly to improve bandwidth etc. So it looks like this cannot be upgraded / replaced. That said, it might be worth it to look past the specs and just use your applications on these machines to see how they perform. SSD storage is much faster these days and if the new OS has decently optimized paging, performance will be decent as well.

wlesieutre 6y ago

The intel Mac Mini is still available with the same 8GB in its base model, but configurable up to 16/32/64. RAM is definitely the biggest weakness of these new Macs. On iOS they can get away with less RAM than the rest of the market by killing apps, relaunching them fast, and having severely restricted background processes. On Mac they won't have that luxury. At least they have fast SSDs to help with big pagefiles. With the heterogeneous memory, your 8GB computer doesn't even have its whole 8GB of main system memory. When the touchbar MBP launched in 2016 people were already complaining that it couldn't spec up to 32GB like the competition. Four years later, and it's still capped at 16GB. Hopefully they can grow this for next year's models.

jdeibele 6y ago
And the Intel Mac Mini had user-replaceable RAM. Tired of fan noise and slow response, I went from a 4 Thunderbolt 2018 MacBook Pro with only 8GB of RAM to a 2018 Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM (originally 8GB, bought the RAM from Amazon and upgraded it). The difference was incredible
- pbronez 6y ago
  8GB ram is just soul crushing - even for basic office workloads. I need 16GB minimum.
  - 72deluxe 6y ago
    What in a basic office needs 8GB RAM?! I used Word 6.0 under Windows 95 with 64MB of RAM! Have you looked at Activity Monitor to see what is butchering your memory?!
    - Bud 6y ago
      Well, for starters, the most obvious answer, which is Office 365. Have you glanced at the RAM use of those apps, ever? Second: web browsers, which can easily grab 5-10GB by themselves or even more if RAM is available. So in other words: everything.

suyash 6y ago

16GB limit with the latest MBP M1 13inch seems a big downer, I will wait for 16 inch MBP refresh now.