4 ms·

ASML (European company) is the only manufacturer of EUV lithography machines. Each machine costs $100 - $255 million. ASML ships 35 this year and 45-50 in 2021

ASML (European company) is the only manufacturer of EUV lithography machines. Each machine costs $100 - $255 million. ASML ships 35 this year and 45-50 in 2021.

foobarian 6y ago
I was never quite clear on what's happening here. So what did TSMC actually do then - just buy the machines and run them? What stops any other actors from doing the same?
- cure 6y ago
  The key insight here is that it's not "just" buy the machines and run them. Operational experience is likely extremely important to operate at the level TSMC is at.
  - Out_of_Characte 6y ago
    This, the foundries cost billions of dollars to construct, the machines are 'just' an expensive specialised cog in the entire machine
- fuoqi 6y ago
  US actions for one thing. See the history of how the US has blocked China's acquisition of those machines by simply applying pressure (not even threat of sanctions) on Europeans. Also even you got your hands on them, you need a sufficient expertise and huge investments to build a fab. If you are part of the US block, then it's too expensive, if not, you can't buy, so you have to develop them yourself, which takes a lot of money and more importantly time. Even with all those money poured into this area, China plans to become self-sufficient on the chip front not earlier than 2030.
- pjc50 6y ago
  There is no "just" any more than programming is "just" buying a bunch of computers and hiring staff to run them. TSMC define their processes in great detail: the exact timings of photolithographic processes, the exact composition of the chemical processes, all the little material handling details, wafer sawing, packaging, wire-bonding, testing and so on. They also define standard cell libraries, the little blocks of rectangles that make up the gates. Given the way patterning geometry works, if you want your chip to actually work you realistically need to use their libraries. For major customers there will be a certain amount of tech support, especially on a new process; inevitably the first few wafers through will have terrible yields and it's to the benefit of both parties to work out why. A factory - any factory - is not just the set of capital equipment that makes it up, but the collection of staff that run it, including their often unwritten expertise on how the process works in ways that may differ from the theory.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    Do you know what kind of software is used to design these chips? I understand you can do prototyping in Verilog and then somehow translate or make use of these predefined cells. Then how those cells are placed on the die? Is that automated or semi-manual like when doing PCB design? I play with FPGA, but I just keep wondering what it would take to design my own chip.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      There is an open toolchain, but most companies go with either Cadence or Synopsis. Key steps: floorplan, place and route, layout. It's automatic with manual tuning and fix-up; just as PCB autoroute isn't perfect. Getting timing closure can require a lot of work; picking the right size of cells to drive the length of wire and fan-out is a serious problem.
- imtringued 6y ago
  If buying machines is the easy part then you would expect TSMC to be leading the market because it can just double its manufacturing capacity based on existing processes, meanwhile competitors would have to start from scratch.

ASML (European company) is the only manufacturer of EUV lithography machines. Each machine costs $100 - $255 million. ASML ships 35 this year and 45-50 in 2021.

foobarian 6y ago

I was never quite clear on what's happening here. So what did TSMC actually do then - just buy the machines and run them? What stops any other actors from doing the same?

cure 6y ago
The key insight here is that it's not "just" buy the machines and run them. Operational experience is likely extremely important to operate at the level TSMC is at.
- Out_of_Characte 6y ago
  This, the foundries cost billions of dollars to construct, the machines are 'just' an expensive specialised cog in the entire machine
fuoqi 6y ago
US actions for one thing. See the history of how the US has blocked China's acquisition of those machines by simply applying pressure (not even threat of sanctions) on Europeans. Also even you got your hands on them, you need a sufficient expertise and huge investments to build a fab. If you are part of the US block, then it's too expensive, if not, you can't buy, so you have to develop them yourself, which takes a lot of money and more importantly time. Even with all those money poured into this area, China plans to become self-sufficient on the chip front not earlier than 2030.
pjc50 6y ago
There is no "just" any more than programming is "just" buying a bunch of computers and hiring staff to run them. TSMC define their processes in great detail: the exact timings of photolithographic processes, the exact composition of the chemical processes, all the little material handling details, wafer sawing, packaging, wire-bonding, testing and so on. They also define standard cell libraries, the little blocks of rectangles that make up the gates. Given the way patterning geometry works, if you want your chip to actually work you realistically need to use their libraries. For major customers there will be a certain amount of tech support, especially on a new process; inevitably the first few wafers through will have terrible yields and it's to the benefit of both parties to work out why. A factory - any factory - is not just the set of capital equipment that makes it up, but the collection of staff that run it, including their often unwritten expertise on how the process works in ways that may differ from the theory.
- varispeed 6y ago
  Do you know what kind of software is used to design these chips? I understand you can do prototyping in Verilog and then somehow translate or make use of these predefined cells. Then how those cells are placed on the die? Is that automated or semi-manual like when doing PCB design? I play with FPGA, but I just keep wondering what it would take to design my own chip.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    There is an open toolchain, but most companies go with either Cadence or Synopsis. Key steps: floorplan, place and route, layout. It's automatic with manual tuning and fix-up; just as PCB autoroute isn't perfect. Getting timing closure can require a lot of work; picking the right size of cells to drive the length of wire and fan-out is a serious problem.
imtringued 6y ago
If buying machines is the easy part then you would expect TSMC to be leading the market because it can just double its manufacturing capacity based on existing processes, meanwhile competitors would have to start from scratch.