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Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife “dream team”
- sschueller 6y agoWhy is Pfizer always mentioned in the news when it is BioNTech and Pfizer is "just" a partner? Just as the Chinese drugmaker Fosun is. Sure credit goes to both but this "Dream Team" is BioNTech.
- fabian2k 6y agoThat was quite noticeable in english articles about the vaccine. In the German media either BioNTech or both are usually mentioned.
- yokaze 6y agoProbably because Pfizer has a big PR department to ensure exactly this.
- erie 6y agoŞahin was born in Iskenderun, Turkey or Syria before the Turkish/ Ottoman occupation.
- monoideism 6y agoThe Ottoman empire ended in 1922. He's 55. That math just doesn't add up. Perhaps you mean the Turkish Republic?
- kingofpandora 6y agoİskenderun - and all of Hatay province - became part of Turkey just before the Second World War, so well after the end of the Ottoman Empire. The math still doesn't add up though if Şahin is aged 55, since at the time of his birth it really was part of Turkey.
- refurb 6y agoSimilar to the reason why most small biotechs don’t get credit when a big pharma company launches their drug - coming up with a drug candidate is critical and really hard, but it gets you about 1/3rd of the way to the market (at least as measured by dollars). Taking it through clinical trials, regulatory approval and manufacturing is a complex (and massively expensive) process that requires expertise typically only big pharma has (not to say smaller company don't roll their own, they do, but they are often slower and sometimes stumble). And this is to not downplay BioNTech's role. Proving that your idea works in biotech takes some massive cohones. No doubt they took a ton of shit on their way to this point.
- ghc 6y agoBioNTech is different from a small biotech that can only produce drug candidates. They have their own advanced manufacturing plant and can take it end to end. Their US branch, which my wife is a part of, has all the in-house expertise needed to take a cancer therapy or vaccine to market in the US, just like Moderna does. If I’m not mistaken the reason for the partnership is the sheer size of the clinical trials needed (very different from cancer therapies) and the speed at which they need to be run due to the pandemic. Only big pharma can do that.
- refurb 6y agoI didn't know they had manufacturing capabilities. Looking at their manufacturing page, they do have GMP manufacturing facilities, but it looks like they were built around their oncology pipeline, which would be customized for each patient and low volume (as you mentioned). https://biontech.de/how-we-translate/manufacturing https://biontech.de/how-we-translate/manufacturing And unless I'm mistaken, they don't have any approved products on market? No doubt they have experts in house, but when you're racing to get a product to market, it can be very helpful having someone like Pfizer helping out who has successfully gotten 70+ products approved by the FDA (including several vaccines). And interestingly, you'll even see these partnerships across big pharma. I worked for one company who was interested in bringing a gene therapy in house until we did our due diligence and realized holy shit, we know nothing about gene therapies. And this was a top 5 pharma company.
- BjoernKW 6y agoThis might have something to do with national bias. In Germany, where BioNTech is based, news articles (or rather: German-language articles) either mention BioNTech exclusively or cite them as the primary player in the BioNTech / Pfizer partnership.
- levosmetalo 6y ago> This might have something to do with national bias. I would rather say nationalistic bias. Because the fine German press never put a bombastic headlines like "Migrants invented Covid vaccine", or "Scientists of Turkish origin to save millions of German lives". Somehow these facts are conveniently ignored, but when a person with migration heritage do something bad, it's vocally mentioned in all media, including the mainstream.
- ChuckNorris89 6y agoThe populist media is the same in every country: Migrant does something good, he's a local, pop the champagne to celebrate our nation's glorious achievement; migrant does something bad, he's <insert_foreign_nationality>, out with them foreigners. Tribalism is still deeply rooted in our DNA and the media capitalizez on that since it gets them clicks on their articles.
- _0ffh 6y agoStraight up wrong! The opposite is true, the names of criminal migrants are usually suppressed in the media, for fear of riling up the right. The names of the BioNTech couple are everywhere, as ten seconds of research could have taught you. https://rp-online.de/panorama/coronavirus/biontech-gruender-ugur-sahin-vom-gastarbeiterkind-zum-retter-der-menschheit_aid-54532197 https://rp-online.de/panorama/coronavirus/biontech-gruender-... https://www.tlz.de/leben/vermischtes/biontech-gruender-dieses-ehepaar-macht-der-welt-hoffnung-id230877664.html https://www.tlz.de/leben/vermischtes/biontech-gruender-diese... https://www.express.de/koeln/corona-impfstoff-erfinder-das-leben-von-ugur-sahin-ist-eine-koelner-erfolgsgeschichte-37488994 https://www.express.de/koeln/corona-impfstoff-erfinder-das-l... https://www.businessinsider.de/wissenschaft/gesundheit/biontech-chef-ugur-sahin-spricht-ueber-seinen-corona-impfstoff-a/ https://www.businessinsider.de/wissenschaft/gesundheit/biont...
- fs111 6y agobecause everything is American and if it is not it either does not exist or it has to be remade in America to be. /snark
- forgotmypw17 6y agoI think many more American people would avoid and mistrust a Chinese vaccine than one they perceive as being "American"
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- dicomdan 6y agoBecause it's jointly owned by the 2 companies. It's not about subjective nationalism, it's a technicality of this partnership. DW (German government news) refers to both companies in communication.
- andy_ppp 6y agoIt’s called having a good PR firm, I’m pretty sure the press just write up the press releases. Certainly worked when a ship owned by one shipping company sank and Maersk got the blame in the press even though they were only chartering it.
- rsynnott 6y agoFairly standard national bias in reporting. For a particularly ridiculous example, see athletes in Northern Ireland; the British press often refer to them as British when they win, and Irish when they don't!
- johnwalkr 6y agoI feel like there’s a threshold for fame that needs to be met for giving credit in the English-language, mainstream media. A famous name like Stephen Hawking would get directly credited for a result. A less famous researcher’s result would get credited to their school (eg MIT). Outside of well known western names and institutions, the result would get credited to the country (eg China or Japan). The exception is underdog stories.
- spaetzleesser 6y agoThat’s my observation too. Whenever something is reported they try to attach a big name to the headline. Be it “Harvard”, “Elon Musk” or something else. It seems this is another sign of inequality. The already famous get even more fame.
- johnwalkr 6y agoYes! Elon Musk is a perfect example of this!
- quaintdev 6y agoThis has to be called some kind of effect which is probably already on Wikipedia.
- libraryofbabel 6y agoYes! It is the Matthew Effect, coined by socialist of science Robert Merton: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect “eminent scientists will often get more credit than a comparatively unknown researcher, even if their work is similar; it also means that credit will usually be given to researchers who are already famous”
- tannhaeuser 6y agoFAZ (German press) portrays Ugur Sahin, BioNTech's founder and CEO, as kindof a nerd who doesn't like press conferences, sticks to facts, and rather spends his time in the lab.
- ghoomketu 6y ago> even on the day of their wedding, both made time for lab work. This would be the definition of pure passion and what it takes to accomplish something like this. These people are a totally different breed compared to people I know. Kudos to them for their achievements.
- asdasdad12313 6y agoIt helps when you own the business, no? Unless people you know are all founders who happen to like frequent time off.
- texasbigdata 6y ago“Helps” is a funny term. Probably a) “has to as a last line of defense” or b) “can’t reasonably ask anyone else because it’s after hours etc” or c) it’s high conscientiousness. This probably won’t fly over very well on hacker news but the academic literature on CEOs and their work ethic, even down to physiological changes in their blood/saliva related to cortisol, suggests they work hard in general and make many sacrifices.
- nencrystation 6y agoI actually cant think of a site where that would fly better, except machiavelli-suntzu-successwin-business-genius.org
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- raxxorrax 6y agoSlight criticism of people you know too :) I think it is great and I hope they get acknowledged for their work. Or anyone that tries to find solution to the current sorry state.
- oh_sigh 6y agoImagine if it wasn't a lab(with all the positive associations of doing science), and instead they were middle managers or accountants. That kind of behavior would be considered unhealthy.
- teraku 6y agoLittle funny sidenote: On the sign in front of the building (in the photo) is the address of the company. It translates to "At the goldmine" ;-)
- tyingq 6y agoThat is funny, but so it's clear, it's the name of the street...nothing specific to BioNTech.
- jansan 6y agoMaybe the name was chosen specifically for that area when they were trying to attract startup companies?
- tyingq 6y agoHard to say. There's a homeless shelter across the street, which is a bit ironic.
- davrosthedalek 6y agoNot really. It's on of the older streets in Mainz, and is named like this as far as I can think back (I'm 41). It might have to do something with "Rheingold", but I couldn't find an explanation for the name, and google is not helpful with so many articles about Biontech and the name of the street.
- akie 6y agoThis Covid vaccine was created by a German company founded by the children of Turkish immigrants. In this time of open racism and public hostility to immigration, this needs to be pointed out and repeated. It was children of Turkish immigrants to Germany.
- geff82 6y agoLooks like this was a perfect combination to (maybe) save the world. A Turkish - German - American collaboration, so to say. Wow. Who would have thought.
- AussieWog93 6y agoIs that really relevant? Plenty of technological breakthroughs are made by immigrants/children of immigrants, and everyone on this site already knows this.
- nefitty 6y agoI think the point is that it should be mentioned in the media in general, not specifically here on HN.
- jgehring 6y agoIndeed. For bad news, e.g. crime, the (German) media takes great care to mention whether suspects or convicts are immigrants or of direct immigrant descent. Attaching this information to good news is done less frequently but would be required to paint a more realistic picture.
- arethuza 6y agoFear of Turkey joining the EU was a significant factor in the Brexit campaign: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-how-the-brexit-referendum-was-won https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-how-the...
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- Havoc 6y agoCan’t get past the consent screen in chrome on an iPhone on either mobile or desktop page - agree button is off page. Surprising for a big site like Reuters
- geff82 6y agoThe headquarter of their company is only 10 miles from my home, in a university town, full of young people. So blessed that maybe a part of the solution to this crisis comes from "my" region.
- davrosthedalek 6y agoI was born in Mainz, and lived there for 30 years! Beautiful city, if anybody is in the area, come visit (but don't go to the "Ebsch Seit"=Wiesbaden :) The university has a particle accelerator (MAMI), they do tours!
- fllawless 6y agoAs a resident of Mainz-Kastel, I am offended. The Ebsch Seit enjoys the far superior view across the Rhine.
- davrosthedalek 6y agoRechts des Rheins ist auch noch Mainz :)
- rv-de 6y agoIs that a double-joke? Or whatever it is being called. Like seemingly a blow against Mainz but what do you see across the Rhine from Kastel? Mainz. there's your superior view ... maybe I'm overthinking it.
- davrosthedalek 6y agoMainz-Kastel is a district of Wiesbaden, right across from Mainz. As the name implies, it used to be a part of Mainz, but after WWII, the Rhine was a convenient border between the French and US occupied regions, so it was made a part of Wiesbaden. Culturally, Mainz-Kastel is very much Mainz though, sharing for example the tradition of "Fassenacht", Mainz Carnival. So most people there feel like being Mainzer, and enjoy the beautiful view from across the river onto the Mainzer Schloss (Palace).
- supergirl 6y agothere are many vaccines in trials. why is this one getting so much attention? american PR machine hard at work? sounds like they already have the movie plot perfected but they haven't published an article yet
- fabian2k 6y agoIt's the first vaccine with preliminary results from a phase III trial. And the initial news are very good with 90% efficacy.
- supergirl 6y agothe first preliminary stage 3 results are actually from the sinovac vaccine: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sinovac-brazil-idUSKBN27429E https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sinova.... however they didn't disclose the efficacy, but only the side effects. general efficacy is not everything anyway. according to https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30773-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... the best vaccine is one that prevents serious disease and death, which can't be shown in stage 3.
- klmadfejno 6y agoGoogle suggests they hadn't started, or were only just getting permission to start their phase 3 trials by the time of that article. Either way. It's a matter of semantics to say the sinovac vaccine had results first if it doesn't say anything about efficacy. What is being discussed is efficacy results.
- MrBuddyCasino 6y agoSo I've heard this is will be the first mRNA vaccine on the market, ever. How worried should I be, given the political pressure to get a COVID19 vaccine to market as quickly as possible?
- bluGill 6y agoI wouldn't sorry too much. We understand a lot of old worries and so we know they don't apply. They have a lot of data from previous forms of this type of things suggesting it is safe. We know the that injected "things" break down very quickly in the body, which again makes us believe there won't be any long term problems. Of course in the end who knows. There could be something, and we may not know for 10 years. On the other hand, we know that Covid is killing a large number of people right now. We have enough data to confidently state that the long term adverse effects are overall less bad than Covid.
- MrBuddyCasino 6y ago> We understand a lot of old worries and so we know they don't apply. What are "old worries"? This is a new type of vaccine. > They have a lot of data from previous forms of this type of things suggesting it is safe. How does this make sense, given this is the first mRNA vaccine? The expression "previous forms of this type of things" is as blurry as it can get. > We know the that injected "things" break down very quickly in the body, which again makes us believe there won't be any long term problems. Heavy metals are "things", and when you inject them in the body, they don't break down, but stay there and slowly kill you. > Of course in the end who knows. There could be something, and we may not know for 10 years. This is not the attitude I'd take on something that potentially hundreds of millions of people will be subjected to. I'm aware that you can't ever prove something to be safe. I want to know if the specific risk brought about by mRNA vaccines are well understood or not, and why. > On the other hand, we know that Covid is killing a large number of people right now. It doesn't. > We have enough data to confidently state that the long term adverse effects are overall less bad than Covid. Splendid, I'm not going to ask for sources then, because I like the tone of your voice so much.
- zeristor 6y agoGreat story, it’s not quite there yet; finalisation of the testing, and mass production to be done. But with the huge financial and credibility boost I hope the team can follow their passion to solve other medical issues. Quite an insight to switch from cancer therapy to COVID-19 vaccine, and quite the opportunity to be able to deploy 500 researchers onto it at such an early stage. I hope this bolsters their original search for cancer treatment.
- refurb 6y agoQuite an insight to switch from cancer therapy to COVID-19 vaccine Actually not at all. BioNTech's entire platform was customized RNA therapeutics that target the immune system to a particular patient's tumor. Basically cancer vaccines.
- jariel 6y agoBionTech needs to hire a top tier marketing and PR team immediately, they are failing bad at early media mentions, press releases and coverage. Unfortunately it's probably not within their DNA and they may not realize what is happening around them. This is a monster, monster opportunity and just 'existing' won't leverage it to the extent they can - it will help them fund, hire more, expand more, do more of what they are doing.
- ictebres 6y agoSo that they will turn into a mega company with nothing but PR, capital and marketing? I think the fact that they are so focused on medicine and science should rather be the norm in medicine. The fact that Pfizer can spin this story on their name is disturbing and dangeruous behaviour that should not be the norm.
- jariel 6y agoThis is a misunderstanding of what communications is. The world works on information, if you don't take a seat at table, it will be taken by someone else. The notion that 'communicating' and 'lab work' would be somehow 'competing time and/or resource pressures' overall at the company is nonsense. They are mostly separate activities. Pfizer doesn't have to 'spin' anything, they are a legit partner in the deal, they can do the release in the US, they will have their brand up there, their name, do the interviews - and they don't have to do anything tricky, they can surely mention their 'no name partner' and win $1 Billion worth of free PR. A tiny Germany company, knowing nothing about communications, will miss the opportunity to tell the world who they are, to tell their story, to make their name known to another generation of researchers and scientists who might want to work with them, to a generation of bankers, business people who will be 2x more likely to want to 'take the call and or do the deal' because of their reputation. 1/2 of business is communicating, the only successful businesses that don't understand this are the one's that hit on it accidentally. Pfizer is already a global brand, this is the moment of a lifetime for 'the name of the company I already forget' (see what I mean?) - I had to re-look it up - 'BioNTech' - it's very much make-or-break. If this vaccine is legit they need to start talking about themselves now.
- zoobab 6y agoBeware BioNTech has a patent behind it, the process to manufacture it is also secret (trade secret).
- m0zg 6y agoEveryone is excited about "90% efficacy", but nobody mentions the rate of side effects. Hmm. If this is injected into several billion people, twice into each person, wouldn't you want to know at least an estimate of the ratio before you do that? Especially with mandatory vaccination looming on the horizon.
- colaclanth 6y agodo you really think the thousands of scientists working on this just forgot to take into account the harm caused by the vaccine in comparison to covid?
- cblconfederate 6y agoi know we all trust US and european science more than others, but we need to be careful with press releases until proper research is published. e.g. remdesivir is generally a fiasco yet widely publicized
- m0zg 6y agoMind reading doesn't work. I was merely pointing out there doesn't seem to be safety data yet, and it will be required to deploy this widely. This is PR pure and simple. It doesn't mean that "we have a vaccine" quite yet, unless you want to recklessly endanger a lot of people. We won't have it for a while.
- djsumdog 6y agoYes.
- stordoff 6y agoThe UK have been cautious to point out that they don't have the full safety data yet, and that that is the next step: > The Pfizer/BioNTech Vaccine has been tested on over 40,000 volunteers and interim results suggest it is proving 90 per cent effective at protecting people against the virus. > But we haven’t yet seen the full safety data, and these findings also need to be peer-reviewed. > So we have cleared one significant hurdle but there are several more to go before we know the vaccine can be used. > [...] If the Pfizer vaccine passes all the rigorous safety checks and is proved to be effective then we will begin a UK-wide NHS led programme of vaccine distribution. https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-statement-on-coronavirus-covid-19-9-november-2020 https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-state...
- haskaalo 6y agoHow can they make sure that the mass produced version of the vaccine doesn't have a "mutation" (extra/missing nucleotide) in some shots while producing the mRNA?
- scotty79 6y agoI think they could replicate mRNA into latge batch, then test it if it conains enough of correct mRNA. If there is some slightly incorrect mRNA it will result in cells producing wrongly folded protein and if there's enough of it you'll get additional immunity to something slightly different. Cells that produce the protein are to be killed by immune system anyways and natural viral mRNA is probably not perfectly replicated 100% of the time.
- cannedslime 6y agoCan't wait for the side effects considering its Pfizer teehee.
- spaetzleesser 6y agoI wonder how the fact that this is a German company relates to people in the US always being told that they have to pay multiples of international drug prices so the US companies can do the research the rest of the world is not doing.
- pen2l 6y agoOne of the costliest things a pharmaceutical company does in R&D stage is clinical trials and scaling later on... and that's the reason why Pfizer was sought out for this. Of coure kudos to these German scientists, but much kudos should also be given to Pfizer for their integral role to play it out to the last mile.
- fastball 6y agoYou don't think Americans buy drugs from German companies?
- spaetzleesser 6y agoThey do. But a lot of Americans believe that drug prices here are so high because nowhere else in the world research is done.
- fastball 6y agoThe reasoning I've heard (and I can't say I disagree with) is that if drug prices in the US weren't market driven, big pharma would have much smaller war chests to work with when it comes to R&D. As in this case, where Pfizer specifically chose not to take any government support, supposedly because they wanted to avoid any bureaucratic delays.
- ripvanwinkle 6y agoI thought this was a good story for all the Western world on how immigration helps with unexpected breakthroughs. More stories like these might help moderate some of the borderline right wing anti-immigration folks