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I think it’ll be a big win when plant-based burgers are cheaper than animal based burgers. From a raw ingredients standpoint plant based food should almost alw

• dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Hopefully, with McDonald’s scale and with their vertical integration they can make affordable, tasty, and comparably healthy veggie burgers a reality. McDonald's hasn't even made tasty meat burgers a reality, so that's asking a bit much. OTOH, I supect McDonald's will continue to harvest as much of a premium as the market will bear from anyone with special dietary preferences that they cater to, including vegetarians, regardless of underlying food costs. Now, if there is lots of competition in serving vegetarian fast-food, then there will be pressure to bring the price down to the extent costs support it.
  • Nbox9 6y ago
    You notice how I mentioned taste after price. I suspect McDonald’s prioritizes costs over taste, but that taste will factor into their final product.
  • sjwright 6y ago
    > McDonald's hasn't even made tasty meat burgers a reality That might well be true in some countries. Certainly not true in Australia.
• adrian_mrd 6y ago
  A good way to think of this problem is that there are two solutions: Option A, farmers continue to receive government subsidies, or, Option B, consumers pay the ‘real’ price for food (which factors in the cost of externalities eg climate change, no factory farms, etc)
  • Scene_Cast2 6y ago
    It is strategically important for a country to be able to feed itself (vs importing food). Farm subsidies are the current method that enables this. At least that's what the internet told me, I have no insight into that industry.
    • thehappypm 6y ago
      It’s less about importing food but ensuring that food is cheap enough that the entire populace can cheaply access food.
      • saalweachter 6y ago
        Also, enabling overproduction. Farmers get it coming and going. If it is a "bad" year, and the crops fail, you don't get money and might not be able to afford to keep going next year. If it is a "good" year and a "good" year for everyone else, it becomes a "bad" year again -- overproduction means that your prices drop and you might not be able to afford to keep going next year. But while both situations are equally bad for the farmer, it's really bad for civilization if you don't produce enough food -- in fact, you want to ensure that even in multi-sigma off-years, with flooding everywhere that floods and drought everywhere else, you still produce enough food to feed everyone. That means that you have to build in a lot of overproduction -- every year should be a "bad" year for the farmers. (As an aside, you'll never see more concealed glee than a couple of farmers in one state talking about a flood in another state that produces a similar slate of crops, knowing that's going to bump crop prices by 20-30% while also not wanting to be happy about others' misfortune.)
• ttul 6y ago
  I wonder to what extent farming subsidies and implicit subsidies such as the under pricing of carbon emissions make meat burgers less expensive than they ought to be.
  • Daishiman 6y ago
    If you priced the externalities, plant-based food is an order of magnitude cheaper, at the very least.
    • Nbox9 6y ago
      My grocery bill decreased when I started eating exclusively plant based foods. In most meals the most expensive item on the plate is the meat.
      • mike_d 6y ago
        Plant based food are cheap because the overwhelming majority of government subsidies go to farmers and not ranchers. (there are some misleading charts on the internet that try to bundle school lunch programs providing milk as a meat subsidy)
        • whimsicalism 6y ago
          > Plant based food are cheap because the overwhelming majority of government subsidies go to farmers and not ranchers And then the ranchers buy the subsidized feed... 74 cents on every dollar a dairy farmer earns is from subsidy.
        • ornornor 6y ago
          > misleading charts on the internet that try to bundle school lunch programs providing milk as a meat subsidy It’s not misleading. You don’t get milk without killing calves soon after they’re born and their mothers after a few years.
    • dragonwriter 6y ago
      If you priced the externalities in fossil fuels would be cost prohibitive, but a sizable political faction, particularly in the US, views Pigovian taxes as equivalent to totalitarian Communism, and an influential if anti-scientific set of economic viewpoints views externalities as either unreal or not practically subject to internalization. So, I wouldn't hold your breath.
• stronglikedan 6y ago
  > and comparably healthy Every plant-based meat I'm aware of has been processed to hell and back, so I'm dubious of the claims that they are healthier.
  • bluntfang 6y ago
    Lucky for you GP said they were comparable, not healthier!
  • sosborn 6y ago
    What inherent trait of "processing" makes a food unhealthy?
    • fpgaminer 6y ago
      I was also dubious of the claim that "processed" foods are less healthy, but there does seem to be some evidence to support the claim at least along one vector: > Processing may affect the natural resistant starch content of foods. [...] Whole grain wheat may contain as high as 14% resistant starch, while milled wheat flour may contain only 2%. > The fermentation of resistant starch produces more butyrate than other types of dietary fibers. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch#Processing_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch#Processing_ef... > Butyrates are important as food for cells lining the mammalian colon (colonocytes). [...] Butyrate is extremely essential to host immune homeostasis. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyrate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyrate Basically, resistant starch is extremely important to the health of your colon, and fairly important to your health in general. From what I hear, colon cancer is not terribly fun. Since processing greatly reduces the resistant starch content of certain goods it seems reasonable to claim that "processing" makes some foods less healthy. Though like all things there is a lot of subtly here; I wouldn't be surprised if plant based burgers end up healthier on the whole despite the processing when compared to regular meat. But they are unlikely to be healthier than the equivalent in unprocessed veggies.
      • whimsicalism 6y ago
        > Basically, resistant starch is extremely important to the health of your colon, and fairly important to your health in general. So if you eat exclusively processed grains, you don't have the resistant starch. Meanwhile, red meat is linked with actually causing colon cancer, not just failure to prevent it.
• Barrin92 6y ago
  It's long overdue that all the social costs of meat consumption are priced into those goods and/or that we subsidise plant based alternatives so that the ecological benefits are reflected at the counter. I'm pessimistic it's going to happen though.
  • whimsicalism 6y ago
    Even just removing the current subsidy on meat & dairy would do a lot.
  • kickout 6y ago
    I agree, but I also think its long overdue to reflect transportation costs to the consumers as well (airline prices and gasoline prices are artificially subsidized and do far more damage to the environment than meat production--target them first).
• seltzered_ 6y ago
  They arguably could do this by making the meat come from ecologically better solutions (silvopasture, savory method, etc.). Imagine if both the meat and plant choices were both better. The counter-argument is it that all burgers would monetarily expensive, but factory meat is also expensive just in forms of unaccounted externalities.
• boruto 6y ago
  You should visit india. Vegetarian food is always a bit cheaper than meat and poultry.
  • mike_d 6y ago
    Over half of under-5 child mortality in India is the result of malnutrition, and half the children under 3 are below a healthy weight. The WHO has citied not only insufficient food, but also a substandard diet.
    • howlgarnish 6y ago
      That's due to poverty, not vegetarianism. If anything, being vegetarian in India is (loosely) associated with wealth and the higher priestly castes.
      • mike_d 6y ago
        Poverty is obviously a factor. I was simply pointing out that India is not a good example of vegetarianism and plant based foods being cheaper. You also seem to discredit the comment I was replying to.
        • howlgarnish 6y ago
          Vegetarian food is indeed both cheaper and higher status. Here's an easily digestible story on NPR on the topic: https://www.npr.org/2020/10/13/923170360/what-does-caste-privilege-mean-for-south-asians-in-the-u-s https://www.npr.org/2020/10/13/923170360/what-does-caste-pri...
    • boruto 6y ago
      I am not arguing the merits of nutrition. My point was vegetarian is always a tiny bit cheaper than poultry in the menu.
• elif 6y ago
  The price of animal agriculture products is artificially lowered by direct subsidy, price controls, and indirectly lowered by the unaccounted ecological costs. It is largely a matter of policy rather than a reflection of market forces. On a level playing field, the cost competitiveness is there. For instance, in New Zealand, one of the largest dairy export markets, I can buy a vegan pizza for the same price. In fact, I can buy it from Dominos, a US brand that doesn't even offer it in the US.
  • markdown 6y ago
    What is the appeal of a vegan pizza? Is it even pizza without cheese?
    • Pfhreak 6y ago
      There are vegan products that mimic the flavors and textures of cheese. And yes, there are also pizzas without cheese.
    • sofixa 6y ago
      As someone who has eaten vegan pizza, no, it's not, it's an abomination. Just make a veggie/vegan lasagna instead...
      • tashoecraft 6y ago
        I've found so far, vegan cheese either melts and doesn't taste good or doesn't melt and tastes good. And by good I mean in comparison to mass produced cheese. It'll be awhile before there's a good, vegan alternative to homemade mozzarella. However, there doesn't need to be. The vast majority of cheesy/non-vegan food that's eaten is low quality ingredients.
        • edkennedy 6y ago
          Then again, that's what everyone said about "proper meat replacements" as well a few years ago.
        • 6y ago
• lhorie 6y ago
  > From a raw ingredients standpoint plant based food should almost always be cheaper than animal based food Genuinely curious: is it though? I can certainly see the strength of the argument if we're merely comparing 1 lb of soy vs 1 lb of beef, but my understanding is that veggie burgers require quite a bit of processing to become "meat-like". It'd be interesting to keep track of cost and environmental impact differences between a low-tech soy-tasting patty vs an impossible burger.
  • Broken_Hippo 6y ago
    I don't know about the ones that are meat-like - that is never my goal (and impossible burgers seem too fatty for my tastes). But I can make something good tasting at home - one of the better ones has brown rice and chickpeas as the main ingredients. I'm going to guess McDonald's veggie burgers will have a decent amount of processing: I don't know how that compares to processing hamburger patties. We are, after all, comparing hamburger patties to pucks of veggie material instead of veggie burgers vs steak.
  • SamBam 6y ago
    Impossible has tried to quantify the total energy and water inputs, and found that their burgers are still only 5% or so of the inputs of meat. Obviously they could be fudging the numbers, but meat is also really, really inefficient.
• cavisne 6y ago
  You still need to process those plants to mimic what the animal did (ie fermenting the grass to extract bioavailable protein and stripping out fibre). Veggie (black bean/lentil) burgers can already be cheaper than meat. But the meat replacement (ie similar protein to meat) burgers are more expensive. I'm not sure why mcdonalds would bother making a meat replacement burger, its fast food so they can just use flavouring to make it taste like meat without incurring the expense of adding protein. It probably will be cheap. As a plus side their customers will still be starving for protein afterwards. Large fries please!
  • warent 6y ago
    I'm at a loss for what you're suggesting here or what your point is. No consumer is going to buy meat flavored rice cakes, and standard plant-based meat has as much protein as animal meat.
  • bluntfang 6y ago
    >As a plus side their customers will still be starving for protein afterwards. Why? Meat replacements are engineered to have similar nutritional value as the meat-based version. for example, BK: >A traditional Whopper has 660 calories, 40 grams of fat (12 of which are saturated) and 28 grams of protein. The Impossible Whopper clocks in at 630 calories, 34 grams of fat (11 saturated) and 25 grams of protein, so it's pretty similar from a macro nutritional standpoint. [0] [0] https://www.today.com/food/burger-king-s-impossible-whopper-veggie-burger-being-rolled-out-t160054 https://www.today.com/food/burger-king-s-impossible-whopper-...
    • ReptileMan 6y ago
      Distribution of proteins is also important. Meat is complete protein.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • ben_w 6y ago
• bane 6y ago
  Lifelong meat eater here. I'm really happy about this news and hope it sticks over the long-run. These new plant-based burgers are basically zero penalty ways to eat more responsibly. They taste about as good as the normal "ok" burger from FastFoodJoint(TM), cost about the same, and are less worse for the planet and everybody on it. It's also more accepting for people who have various dietary restrictions and opens up an entirely new, mediocre, but fast/cheap dining experience. One thing to note is that after some initial offerings, Burger King has yet to really keep their plant burger in the weekly coupon deluge I get. Meaning if I want like 2 entire burger meals I can get it for under $10 with the right coupon. But if I want their Impossible Whopper I still end up paying full-price for it. So yes, if the plant burgers were cheaper than the alternative there really wouldn't be much of a reason to eat the originals any more.
  • golemotron 6y ago
    > It's also more accepting for people who have various dietary restrictions Except for those on a ketogenic diet.
    • ben_w 6y ago
      There are vegan ways to do that. No idea if they’re worthwhile, but they are possible.
      • sjwright 6y ago
        Vegan keto is a pretty small intersection of the Venn diagram of foods, particularly if you're also avoiding refined seed oils.
    • neltnerb 6y ago
      The buns already contain so much sugar that they don't really apply. I did keto for a while and looked at the nutritional information for those burgers, they're not really on the list unless you get them bun-free. The veggie burgers when bun free do have carbs, but I'd consider them to be borderline okay at 6gm of sugar and non-fiber carbs (1gm of sugar) for 14gm of fat and 19gm of protein for a reasonably solid ratio of 6:33 or ~20%. It's not as good as bacon, but it's probably as good as beans... Ref: https://faq.impossiblefoods.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018939274-What-are-the-nutrition-facts- https://faq.impossiblefoods.com/hc/en-us/articles/3600189392...
• spacephysics 6y ago
  Not so fast with the health talk. Vegetable oils are most likely carcinogenic, amid other health issues (GI, heart) [0]. Red meat is not [1] Further, these fake meats, Impossible Burger namely, have been linked to kidney failure in mice studies [2] (one commissioned by the Impossible Foods manufacturer). In particular: " * A rat feeding study commissioned by the manufacturer Impossible Foods found that rats fed SLH [soy leghemoglobin] developed unexplained changes in weight gain, changes in the blood that can indicate the onset of inflammation or kidney disease, and possible signs of anemia * Impossible Foods dismissed these statistically significant effects as “non-adverse” or as having “no toxicological relevance” " I understand these aren't as good test subjects as human studies, however it seems under the guise of the green movement, this evidence has been willfully ignored, or just not known. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. [0] - https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/why-vegetable-oils-are-carcinogenic https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/why-vegetable-oils-are... [1] - https://www.theguardian.com/food/2019/sep/30/research-red-meat-poses-no-health-risk https://www.theguardian.com/food/2019/sep/30/research-red-me... [2] - https://www.gmoscience.org/rat-feeding-studies-suggest-the-impossible-burger-may-not-be-safe-to-eat/ https://www.gmoscience.org/rat-feeding-studies-suggest-the-i...
  • thorwasdfasdf 6y ago
    Yes, oils are pretty bad for you but Red meat is a class 2 carcinogen. So, neither are good for you.
    • msandford 6y ago
      According to the WHO class 2 is "probably carcinogenic" and what was effectively a meta (or meta-meta) analysis showed that the increased risk was 18%. Do we know how bad vegetable oils are for people yet? Is there any reason to think that they're 100% A-OK? Humans have been eating meat for 10s or 100s of thousands if not millions of years. Humans have been eating highly refined vegetable and seed oils for what, a couple of hundred? One of these food sources helped turn apes into humans. The other didn't even exist until humans invented a LOT of technology.
• gmadsen 6y ago
  a veggie burger is almost always not healthier.
  • DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    Do you have a source for that claim?
• no_wizard 6y ago
  Yes, this being cost competitive in the marketplace is a huge win. Lets not leave out the sole most crucial factor, other than price, being taste. My proposition has always been the following, and in fact, has gotten me to switch a number of things in my diet to vegan over the years, its really simple If you blindfold me, and tell me what I'm eating, and I eat it, does it taste like what I'm expecting it to? When it does, I switch to that thing, if its something I don't care enough about that I want it to be an exact replicable experience, I may switch to it anyway since its often healither and better for the environment. Given the texture and general makeup of the average McDonald's patty (its not 100% beef, per say, it has alot of veggie based fillers like soy), this may not be a hard test to pass.
• b20000 6y ago
  plant based burgers are heavily processed with all kinds of chemicals and not necessarily healthier
• mchusma 6y ago
  Agree price is the main issue. Veggie burgers currently almost never taste better than the alternatives (I believe it's possible but just not achieved yet). So right now I have to buy it solely for the environment. Which is is ok, and I do it sometimes, but I don't like having to make so many tradeoffs.
• jungletime 6y ago
  Can anyone comment on why oatmilk is so expensive then. Because oats are super cheap. But 1L of oat milk is $4.50 where I live, which crazy because thats more than regular milk.
  • Polylactic_acid 6y ago
    Likely the same reason as always. Mass production. Everything about cow milk is mass produced and hyper competitive. Its a wonder that your milk costs so little and not that the oat milk costs $4.
  • Nbox9 6y ago
    I can buy named brand Oatly for ~$4.50L or I can buy generic Oatmilk for ~$2.35. I can buy soymilk for cheaper than cow’s milk.
• Balgair 6y ago
  I'd bet that in a few iterations the plant based meats will taste better too. It took them a pretty long time to get the food to taste like meat, there's nothing stopping them from tweaking the taste even more. Their food science must be pretty alright as it stands. A few dozen taste variables and you get thousands of distinct tastes. You can tailor the taste in some acceptable 'tastes-good' parameters to fit just about anything: 'Introducing the Captain America 7 Burger (TM)! Unique and only at Burger King! Our unique blend of spices combined with our Burger scientists American gumption have created the perfect burger for shared virtual summer fun! Order with Shield Sauce (TM) for that taste of Freedom!'
  • jakear 6y ago
    I want to see a coca-cola freestyle-style plant-hamburger machine where you choose your own blend of bases and watch them be extruded from some bags then blended together and plopped onto a griddle.
    • Balgair 6y ago
      Umami boosters, juicy upgrades, fattier striping, or drier styles. Mix and match lamb, elk, or pork into the final flavor profile. All from effectively fridge safe pouches and lessened spoilage risks.
• crazygringo 6y ago
  Also when plant-based burgers actually meet the nutritional profile of animal-based burgers. Right now the Impossible Burger still significantly trails behind an equivalent-weight beef burger in protein, and has a bunch of carbohydrates (which beef doesn't have at all) [1]. Our diet is already far too stuffed with processed carbohydrates, so it's unfortunate that the Impossible Burger adds even more. Hopefully, further improvements can focus on healthy proteins instead. [1] https://www.cnet.com/health/is-the-impossible-burger-healthier-than-beef/ https://www.cnet.com/health/is-the-impossible-burger-healthi...
• newyankee 6y ago
  In McD India menu they already have a couple of types of veggie burgers to cater to the local population. However their patties have potato as one of the main ingredients and it is doubtful whether it will appeal to an average western buyer who needs that meaty feel alongwith protein.
  • systoll 6y ago
    McDonalds Australia have those potato+onion+veg burgers too, so it’s at least somewhat viable in the west.
• deanclatworthy 6y ago
  This is the same company that made a salad unhealthy [1]. I do not hold out any hope that their vegetarian options will be even comparably "healthy". It will be deep-fried crap, packed with additives and flavourings. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/04/mcdonalds-salad-has-more-calories-than-big-mac.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/04/mcdonalds-salad-has-more-cal...
• edumucelli 6y ago
  The price ratio is an interesting aspect of your comment, but personally the taste comparability already exists: search for "Beyond Meat".
• nec4b 6y ago
  It makes little economic sense for it to be cheaper. People abstaining from certain types of food for ideological reasons like vegans and vegetarians do, are usually prepared to pay more to support their believes. It takes economic privilege to be picky about what food one eats. It would be foolish for restaurants to forgo such signals.