5 ms·

I agree with you. I once owned a Mac Mini and iPod. Great hardware, but as a programmer I really hated the software. Too much restrictions. Not enough advanced

I agree with you. I once owned a Mac Mini and iPod. Great hardware, but as a programmer I really hated the software. Too much restrictions. Not enough advanced user power. That's why I always find it weird that some programmers are big Apple fanboys. I love Linux and the power that it brings. Why would a power user want to dabble in a restricted ecosystem? Never quite got that part.

Ensorceled 6y ago
I've been programming professionally since 1984, most of last 20 of those on a Mac (the first Mac that launched with a NeXT OS). I've never really wanted to "dabble" with my core computer's OS, and I've done FreeBSD and Linux kernel hacking. Not everybody is a tinkerer. I get why, but I'm just not interested.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  It’s not about tinkering. It’s more about control and having options for working the way you like instead of Apple’s way. I can’t imagine accepting such a limited environment. Unfortunately, thanks to iOS, I still have to build and test things in the Apple prison complex regularly - so I know exactly how limited things are by comparison (I prefer a Linux desktop.) Programming is about controlling things and Apple hates giving users and developers control. It’s about getting your job done by being able to install and configure things the way you need them without a lot of hassle. If you’re willing to put up with that hassle and live within the confines that Apple has laid out for you than that’s good for you. But there’s a reason that the vast, vast majority of programmers are not using a Mac outside the SV bubble. Even Windows gives you more control! (and hardware freedom of choice.) I’ve been programming since the early 90s and Apple has always been anti-developer and anti-power user.
  - bzbarsky 6y ago
    I think the "hassle" point is key. The things I have wanted to install have generally not involved hassle on a Mac, and never more hassle than they would have on Linux. Configuring things has varied; some are less hassle than Linux, some are more, some are impossible, but unlike Linux once I do a configuration there is generally no hassle _keeping_ the configuration over several OS updates. And there is a lot less hassle in some ways, at least compared to the last time I was trying to use desktop Linux, around things like WiFi, drivers, finding a laptop that will actually work, etc. Yes, the latter is somewhat cheating because I am forced into Apple's hardware, but the hassle-savings from not having to dig through everything on the market to find the laptops that are well-supported by Linux is something I absolutely do not miss. So I think what it comes down to is that different people find different things hassle-full.
    - wayneftw 6y ago
      The Mac OS is very clearly and objectively limited compared to Linux or Windows regarding the amount of control they give you over things. I could list many of them in detail, for they are numerous but they range from the small, like the fact that you can't even change the color of your mouse cursor to something other than black, to the large, like ability to run on any hardware. You're right that it comes down to what people find hassle-ful. That's why I say that if you fit into whatever Apple limits you to, then good for you. But those limitations are why most programmers actually don't use a Mac. > ...unlike Linux once I do a configuration there is generally no hassle _keeping_ the configuration over several OS updates. That's not my experience at all. Using a rolling release (Manjaro) for years I've rarely, if ever, had to re-configure anything major. I have kept three of these machines running without any hassle. They all just work (1 laptop and 2 desktops). Meanwhile on my Macbook Pro, just upgrading through El Cap, Sierra, High Sierra, Mojave and finally to Catalina - each and every time there's a major upgrade they've broken software that I use to the point where I just stopped using all the third party tools that I had to use to make my Mac work the way I want - tools like Karabiner, Better Touch Tool and so on... because I got sick of having to re-install or re-configure them after one of these updates. Also, Apple updates take forever and the update procedure is so clunky that even if you think you've updated something like XCode - the next time you open it you have to do more updates within the actual app. Package managers are soooo much nicer. Haven't you read any of the threads here on HN around the time Apple releases a major new Mac OS update? There are always tons of people complaining about what they broke. I think last time we lost the ability to even run 32-bit apps... > And there is a lot less hassle in some ways, at least compared to the last time I was trying to use desktop Linux, around things like WiFi, drivers, finding a laptop that will actually work, etc. If you had said picking a distro [0], I'd agree with you. But finding a Linux laptop couldn't be easier. Google for: Linux laptop. Also, if you've been scanning headlines here on HN for any amount of time I'm absolutely positive that you could name one right off the top of your head if you thought about it for thirty seconds. Here's a hint: The model name/number starts with XPS. Regarding drivers - every Linux desktop distro I've used has a GUI for picking drivers. You check off a couple boxes, hit apply and restart. Meanwhile on my Mac, I can't even get full functionality out of common hardware like a MS Natural Keyboard or a standard wireless USB mouse - so I gave up trying to do that too. [0] I'll save you some time if you ever want to escape Apple: Pick an Arch-based distro.
cghendrix 6y ago
most of us engineers just use our phones to talk, text, browse the web, and use the occasional social media or random app. We’re just regular people too, not always having the compulsion to hack and tinker with everything. I personally get enough of that from work and the occasional side project.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
  Yeah a lot of these conversations start from the assumption that all programmers are extreme power users but that's just not true. Probably the majority of the subset of programmers who hang out on here are but out in the normal world most of us are not. I need a computer that consistently works without too much fiddling and has a terminal. My setup works fine for me and any time I spend fooling around with it I consider pretty much wasted so I try to avoid that. I've used linux plenty and it just eats up a lot of my time and energy. I leave that stuff for the servers these days.
amelius 6y ago
Yes. The platform takes away power. Plus they take 30% of your profits. WHY do developers find this acceptable? Supporting these practices will only make things worse ...
bzbarsky 6y ago
My reason is simple: I got an environment with the following features (as of the mid-2000s): * Unix shell * X * Virtual desktop support * Runs my editor of choice * Runs on a laptop * WiFi just works * Audio just works * Updates don't break nearly as much (e.g. I don't have to mess with X configuration after every major OS update). I had pretty much stopped trying to do advanced configuration on Linux by that point, because every single major-version OS update would break nearly all of it. There are some tradeoffs, sure, but the amount of time I no longer had to spend to keep up basic functionality was worth it to me. Others may make other tradeoffs. Note that this is for macOS. I'm not sure how I feel about iOS yet.
xnyan 6y ago
I have always loved tearing things apart and fiddling with them. The one exception to that is my primary phone. There's a set of functions I expect it to perform, and that's it. I don't see it as a general purpose computer, nor do I want to be responsible for it's administration. The way I see it, I am paying apple to administer it for me. If it was my only device, I would not be able to use it, but I have so many computers that I'm ok with not being root on my phone if I never have to spend a thought on maintaining it.

Ensorceled 6y ago

I've been programming professionally since 1984, most of last 20 of those on a Mac (the first Mac that launched with a NeXT OS). I've never really wanted to "dabble" with my core computer's OS, and I've done FreeBSD and Linux kernel hacking. Not everybody is a tinkerer. I get why, but I'm just not interested.

wayneftw 6y ago
It’s not about tinkering. It’s more about control and having options for working the way you like instead of Apple’s way. I can’t imagine accepting such a limited environment. Unfortunately, thanks to iOS, I still have to build and test things in the Apple prison complex regularly - so I know exactly how limited things are by comparison (I prefer a Linux desktop.) Programming is about controlling things and Apple hates giving users and developers control. It’s about getting your job done by being able to install and configure things the way you need them without a lot of hassle. If you’re willing to put up with that hassle and live within the confines that Apple has laid out for you than that’s good for you. But there’s a reason that the vast, vast majority of programmers are not using a Mac outside the SV bubble. Even Windows gives you more control! (and hardware freedom of choice.) I’ve been programming since the early 90s and Apple has always been anti-developer and anti-power user.
- bzbarsky 6y ago
  I think the "hassle" point is key. The things I have wanted to install have generally not involved hassle on a Mac, and never more hassle than they would have on Linux. Configuring things has varied; some are less hassle than Linux, some are more, some are impossible, but unlike Linux once I do a configuration there is generally no hassle _keeping_ the configuration over several OS updates. And there is a lot less hassle in some ways, at least compared to the last time I was trying to use desktop Linux, around things like WiFi, drivers, finding a laptop that will actually work, etc. Yes, the latter is somewhat cheating because I am forced into Apple's hardware, but the hassle-savings from not having to dig through everything on the market to find the laptops that are well-supported by Linux is something I absolutely do not miss. So I think what it comes down to is that different people find different things hassle-full.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    The Mac OS is very clearly and objectively limited compared to Linux or Windows regarding the amount of control they give you over things. I could list many of them in detail, for they are numerous but they range from the small, like the fact that you can't even change the color of your mouse cursor to something other than black, to the large, like ability to run on any hardware. You're right that it comes down to what people find hassle-ful. That's why I say that if you fit into whatever Apple limits you to, then good for you. But those limitations are why most programmers actually don't use a Mac. > ...unlike Linux once I do a configuration there is generally no hassle _keeping_ the configuration over several OS updates. That's not my experience at all. Using a rolling release (Manjaro) for years I've rarely, if ever, had to re-configure anything major. I have kept three of these machines running without any hassle. They all just work (1 laptop and 2 desktops). Meanwhile on my Macbook Pro, just upgrading through El Cap, Sierra, High Sierra, Mojave and finally to Catalina - each and every time there's a major upgrade they've broken software that I use to the point where I just stopped using all the third party tools that I had to use to make my Mac work the way I want - tools like Karabiner, Better Touch Tool and so on... because I got sick of having to re-install or re-configure them after one of these updates. Also, Apple updates take forever and the update procedure is so clunky that even if you think you've updated something like XCode - the next time you open it you have to do more updates within the actual app. Package managers are soooo much nicer. Haven't you read any of the threads here on HN around the time Apple releases a major new Mac OS update? There are always tons of people complaining about what they broke. I think last time we lost the ability to even run 32-bit apps... > And there is a lot less hassle in some ways, at least compared to the last time I was trying to use desktop Linux, around things like WiFi, drivers, finding a laptop that will actually work, etc. If you had said picking a distro [0], I'd agree with you. But finding a Linux laptop couldn't be easier. Google for: Linux laptop. Also, if you've been scanning headlines here on HN for any amount of time I'm absolutely positive that you could name one right off the top of your head if you thought about it for thirty seconds. Here's a hint: The model name/number starts with XPS. Regarding drivers - every Linux desktop distro I've used has a GUI for picking drivers. You check off a couple boxes, hit apply and restart. Meanwhile on my Mac, I can't even get full functionality out of common hardware like a MS Natural Keyboard or a standard wireless USB mouse - so I gave up trying to do that too. [0] I'll save you some time if you ever want to escape Apple: Pick an Arch-based distro.

cghendrix 6y ago

most of us engineers just use our phones to talk, text, browse the web, and use the occasional social media or random app. We’re just regular people too, not always having the compulsion to hack and tinker with everything. I personally get enough of that from work and the occasional side project.

8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
Yeah a lot of these conversations start from the assumption that all programmers are extreme power users but that's just not true. Probably the majority of the subset of programmers who hang out on here are but out in the normal world most of us are not. I need a computer that consistently works without too much fiddling and has a terminal. My setup works fine for me and any time I spend fooling around with it I consider pretty much wasted so I try to avoid that. I've used linux plenty and it just eats up a lot of my time and energy. I leave that stuff for the servers these days.

amelius 6y ago

Yes. The platform takes away power. Plus they take 30% of your profits. WHY do developers find this acceptable? Supporting these practices will only make things worse ...

bzbarsky 6y ago

My reason is simple: I got an environment with the following features (as of the mid-2000s): * Unix shell * X * Virtual desktop support * Runs my editor of choice * Runs on a laptop * WiFi just works * Audio just works * Updates don't break nearly as much (e.g. I don't have to mess with X configuration after every major OS update). I had pretty much stopped trying to do advanced configuration on Linux by that point, because every single major-version OS update would break nearly all of it. There are some tradeoffs, sure, but the amount of time I no longer had to spend to keep up basic functionality was worth it to me. Others may make other tradeoffs. Note that this is for macOS. I'm not sure how I feel about iOS yet.

xnyan 6y ago

I have always loved tearing things apart and fiddling with them. The one exception to that is my primary phone. There's a set of functions I expect it to perform, and that's it. I don't see it as a general purpose computer, nor do I want to be responsible for it's administration. The way I see it, I am paying apple to administer it for me. If it was my only device, I would not be able to use it, but I have so many computers that I'm ok with not being root on my phone if I never have to spend a thought on maintaining it.