14 ms·

They can build on it... developers have been building on it for years and making money doing it. Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software

by yakz 6y ago

They can build on it... developers have been building on it for years and making money doing it. Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule. If your app makes money (directly or indirectly), pay Apple whatever portion of your revenue that Apple demands. I also think that's a pretty clear rule. If there's something that should obviously be regulated out of existence, it's allowing them to use terms like "buy", "own", etc. for platforms that you clearly do not control. You are renting the software and the device just comes with it.

emteycz 6y ago
Agreed. Nothing wrong with such business model, other than the deception.
l3s2d 6y ago
Absolutely. As much as I dislike Apple, their ecosystem works for them and their users. Unfortunately the general public isn't aware of the restrictions imposed on them until it matters, like when their screen is broken and they can't pay $$$ for a first party repair. We need regulation coining and enforcing accurate terminology for the relationship between vendors like Apple and Tesla, and their users. It's not ownership. If I can't run whatever software I want on hardware that I paid for, I don't own the hardware. Can you imagine if your mattress didn't work with third party bed frames? Or pillows?
- alexvoda 6y ago
  This is something that should definitely be discussed a lot more. And in defining this new relationship we should also define the responsibilities of the parties. Like for example who is responsible for recycling. I believe such a relationship is fine as long as it is not confused with traditional ownership.
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  Of course their ecosystem works for their users, those of us it doesn't work for have left. We are just encouraging the rest of you who actually enjoy computers to leave too, and warning app developers to avoid that platform if your app is actually interesting or if a lot of people's careers ride on it, since who knows what apple may decide is not acceptable in the future.
  - askmike 6y ago
    I'm sitting here as a developer, contemplating if my next phone should be an iPhone or Android - and this is the gist of what I think: - If I buy an Apple I buy into this developer unfriendly ecosystem with a big gatekeeper. - If I buy an Android I pay with all my privacy, on top of that Google is also a big bully to small app developers. - Besides Google or Apple, what choices are there?
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      How do you pay with privacy if you get an Android phone? On an Android phone, you get to choose which SMS app you use, which means neither Apple nor anyone else sees who you are messaging in order to check if you're messaging an iMessage user. You get to install apps on your device without telling anybody. You get to develop apps for your own device without giving your banking details to anybody. You can find your location without sending your location to Apple or anybody else. None of those are possible on iOS. Freedom and privacy go hand in hsnd.
josteink 6y ago
> Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule. Translation: don’t make an app that put users in control of their own devices. I’m sorry, but I take issue with such user-hostile behaviour.
- nucleardog 6y ago
  Then don’t buy their products? The issue is whether the App Store restrictions are arbitrary and constantly shifting, and that has been consistent basically since Apple started allowing third party software on iOS.
jariel 6y ago
"Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule." This is a non sequitur. "Don't do things that are not 'approved' even though 'approvals' are to a great extent, arbitrary" Apple shifts their interpretation of rules all the time, more problematically, they literally change the rules themselves, and can do so at any time. They will continue to push and try to eat into other business models to the extent they have the power to do so. If Apple could interpret or change their rules so as to take a 30% cut of Uber's business - they would. They only reason they don't, is because they don't have enough power to do so. Yet. This 'just follow the law' rhetoric reminds me of some other kind of populism ...
paultopia 6y ago
But its absolutely not true that this is enforced consistently. My iPhone currently contains three full programming language interpreters from the App Store---one for JavaScript, one for Python, and one for Clojurescript. I know one of those can make arbitrary network requests because I've done it, and I think the other two can as well. So how is that different from iSH? Apple has approved a bunch of apps that can go get third party code and run it.
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
  I think JavaScript/Clojurescript is the exception because they control the runtime and JIT: whether or not you buy their explanation, I think the reason they state is that this is to enable sandboxing. This is at least plausible to me: to have effective sandboxing, you need to restrict the APIs that a device can call, which means blocking the ability to generate and run arbitrary machine code on-device.
  - josephcsible 6y ago
    > This is at least plausible to me: to have effective sandboxing, you need to restrict the APIs that a device can call, which means blocking the ability to generate and run arbitrary machine code on-device. This isn't true. You can sandbox arbitrary machine code by restricting the process it runs in (this is how seccomp works on Linux).
  - roblabla 6y ago
    > to have effective sandboxing, you need to restrict the APIs that a device can call, which means blocking the ability to generate and run arbitrary machine code on-device. Please, no, this is not how security and sandboxing works at all. Otherwise, the moment you have an arbitrary code vulnerability, you'd get full access to everything. The way effective sandboxing works is by giving a process a set of capabilities/permissions, what have you, that is enforced by the kernel. Those permissions can be "can I open files", "can I talk to the camera subsystem", etc. Then, even if you somehow manage to generate the right function call at runtime, the call will fail. And to be clear, this is how apple's own security works.
unglaublich 6y ago
'Run unapproved software'. What's the difference between asking a calculator to add 1 to 2, and asking a scripting engine to add a to b?
- CompuHacker 6y ago
  It'll take you a lot longer to violate intellectual property law with the stock calculator.
  - metiscus 6y ago
    I guess it depends on definitions - you can just type in the AACS number if the calculator has enough digits.
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      Were one so inclined, anyone comfortable with embedded programming and electronics could make an arbitrary calculator perform the critical decryption calculation. It would be slow as hell, but it's proof of the underlying theme: attempting to ban general purpose computing is insane.
dalu 6y ago
You already pay $99 / year for being on their app store
ianai 6y ago
I’d love to see Apple support an Xcode on iOS devices - and have it provide the runtime things like iSH could rely upon. In one fell swoop they could control the code people can run while also making the systems that much more replacements for traditional devices.
bdosoaknfnwodud 6y ago
Just because token developers are succeeding does not mean that the app store serves any general purpose unless that general purpose is "make the proprietor of the app store rich".
mcdevilkiller 6y ago
They make an app (JavaScript engine, actually) that runs unapproved software. It's embedded in Safari.
- sp332 6y ago
  Apple has said from the beginning that apps that don't meet App Store TOS should be moved to the web.
echelon 6y ago
Stop defending Apple and their shitty behavior. > unapproved software > unapproved software > unapproved software > unapproved software How is it 2020 and we're okay with this phrase? What the hell happened? Apple is an enemy of computing and the DOJ needs to break them up.
- arvinsim 6y ago
  > How is it 2020 and we're okay with this phrase? What the hell happened? Shareholders happened, that's why. The lines between company and customers are blurred, giving perverse incentives to defend company practices that wouldn't fly if there were a clear distinction.
  - ksec 6y ago
    >The lines between company and customers are blurred... “There are only two industries that refer to their customers as 'users': illegal drugs and software. " — Edward Tufte
- zepto 6y ago
  No. You just need to not buy an Apple product. Apple is a friend of people who want a curated store. There are other options for those who don’t.
  - echelon 6y ago
    > You just need to not buy an Apple product. Consumer behavior won't change Apple. We need the strong arm of the DOJ to tell Apple not to do this. > Apple is a friend Apple is not a friend of anybody. They're a for-profit company.
    - zepto 6y ago
      I’m not suggesting consumer behavior should change Apple. I’m suggesting that consumers should buy a product that that suits their needs. If you need alternate stores - buy Android. There is no reason at all for Apple to be forced to do anything.
walrus01 6y ago
> Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule. If you think curl or wget are evil unapproved software I don't see how presenting a rational argument as a counterpoint could possibly be of any benefit. Sometimes I forget that people with such opinions actually exist. This is almost literally like the people I've seen freak out about seeing someone do complex things from the command line in a public place (coffee shop, etc) and jump to the wildly wrong conclusion that something was being "hacked".
- noahtallen 6y ago
  I don’t think folks think that wget or curl are evil. It just seems pretty obvious that this kind of app would be forbidden by Apple. Which sucks, but I don’t think it’s surprising.
TheKarateKid 6y ago
> Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule. Is it? Apple can one day decide that a web page with JavaScript loading in an app is “unapproved software.” And now your entire app/business is in jeopardy. And what about apps like Reddit and Imgur that host tons of NSFW content, yet are allowed to be published in the App Store? Apple has more blurred lines than Robin Thicke.
jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
You just reminded me of the "Airport Manager of Conscious Perceptions" from that Onion news story about Franz Kafka International Airport. I hear his voice in my head when I read your comment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEyFH-a-XoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEyFH-a-XoQ

by yakz 6y ago

emteycz 6y ago

Agreed. Nothing wrong with such business model, other than the deception.

l3s2d 6y ago

Absolutely. As much as I dislike Apple, their ecosystem works for them and their users. Unfortunately the general public isn't aware of the restrictions imposed on them until it matters, like when their screen is broken and they can't pay $$$ for a first party repair. We need regulation coining and enforcing accurate terminology for the relationship between vendors like Apple and Tesla, and their users. It's not ownership. If I can't run whatever software I want on hardware that I paid for, I don't own the hardware. Can you imagine if your mattress didn't work with third party bed frames? Or pillows?

alexvoda 6y ago
This is something that should definitely be discussed a lot more. And in defining this new relationship we should also define the responsibilities of the parties. Like for example who is responsible for recycling. I believe such a relationship is fine as long as it is not confused with traditional ownership.
gameswithgo 6y ago
Of course their ecosystem works for their users, those of us it doesn't work for have left. We are just encouraging the rest of you who actually enjoy computers to leave too, and warning app developers to avoid that platform if your app is actually interesting or if a lot of people's careers ride on it, since who knows what apple may decide is not acceptable in the future.
- askmike 6y ago
  I'm sitting here as a developer, contemplating if my next phone should be an iPhone or Android - and this is the gist of what I think: - If I buy an Apple I buy into this developer unfriendly ecosystem with a big gatekeeper. - If I buy an Android I pay with all my privacy, on top of that Google is also a big bully to small app developers. - Besides Google or Apple, what choices are there?
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    How do you pay with privacy if you get an Android phone? On an Android phone, you get to choose which SMS app you use, which means neither Apple nor anyone else sees who you are messaging in order to check if you're messaging an iMessage user. You get to install apps on your device without telling anybody. You get to develop apps for your own device without giving your banking details to anybody. You can find your location without sending your location to Apple or anybody else. None of those are possible on iOS. Freedom and privacy go hand in hsnd.

josteink 6y ago

> Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule. Translation: don’t make an app that put users in control of their own devices. I’m sorry, but I take issue with such user-hostile behaviour.

nucleardog 6y ago
Then don’t buy their products? The issue is whether the App Store restrictions are arbitrary and constantly shifting, and that has been consistent basically since Apple started allowing third party software on iOS.

jariel 6y ago

"Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule." This is a non sequitur. "Don't do things that are not 'approved' even though 'approvals' are to a great extent, arbitrary" Apple shifts their interpretation of rules all the time, more problematically, they literally change the rules themselves, and can do so at any time. They will continue to push and try to eat into other business models to the extent they have the power to do so. If Apple could interpret or change their rules so as to take a 30% cut of Uber's business - they would. They only reason they don't, is because they don't have enough power to do so. Yet. This 'just follow the law' rhetoric reminds me of some other kind of populism ...

paultopia 6y ago

But its absolutely not true that this is enforced consistently. My iPhone currently contains three full programming language interpreters from the App Store---one for JavaScript, one for Python, and one for Clojurescript. I know one of those can make arbitrary network requests because I've done it, and I think the other two can as well. So how is that different from iSH? Apple has approved a bunch of apps that can go get third party code and run it.

fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
I think JavaScript/Clojurescript is the exception because they control the runtime and JIT: whether or not you buy their explanation, I think the reason they state is that this is to enable sandboxing. This is at least plausible to me: to have effective sandboxing, you need to restrict the APIs that a device can call, which means blocking the ability to generate and run arbitrary machine code on-device.
- josephcsible 6y ago
  > This is at least plausible to me: to have effective sandboxing, you need to restrict the APIs that a device can call, which means blocking the ability to generate and run arbitrary machine code on-device. This isn't true. You can sandbox arbitrary machine code by restricting the process it runs in (this is how seccomp works on Linux).
- roblabla 6y ago
  > to have effective sandboxing, you need to restrict the APIs that a device can call, which means blocking the ability to generate and run arbitrary machine code on-device. Please, no, this is not how security and sandboxing works at all. Otherwise, the moment you have an arbitrary code vulnerability, you'd get full access to everything. The way effective sandboxing works is by giving a process a set of capabilities/permissions, what have you, that is enforced by the kernel. Those permissions can be "can I open files", "can I talk to the camera subsystem", etc. Then, even if you somehow manage to generate the right function call at runtime, the call will fail. And to be clear, this is how apple's own security works.

unglaublich 6y ago

'Run unapproved software'. What's the difference between asking a calculator to add 1 to 2, and asking a scripting engine to add a to b?

CompuHacker 6y ago
It'll take you a lot longer to violate intellectual property law with the stock calculator.
- metiscus 6y ago
  I guess it depends on definitions - you can just type in the AACS number if the calculator has enough digits.
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    Were one so inclined, anyone comfortable with embedded programming and electronics could make an arbitrary calculator perform the critical decryption calculation. It would be slow as hell, but it's proof of the underlying theme: attempting to ban general purpose computing is insane.

dalu 6y ago

You already pay $99 / year for being on their app store

ianai 6y ago

I’d love to see Apple support an Xcode on iOS devices - and have it provide the runtime things like iSH could rely upon. In one fell swoop they could control the code people can run while also making the systems that much more replacements for traditional devices.

bdosoaknfnwodud 6y ago

Just because token developers are succeeding does not mean that the app store serves any general purpose unless that general purpose is "make the proprietor of the app store rich".

mcdevilkiller 6y ago

They make an app (JavaScript engine, actually) that runs unapproved software. It's embedded in Safari.

sp332 6y ago
Apple has said from the beginning that apps that don't meet App Store TOS should be moved to the web.

echelon 6y ago

Stop defending Apple and their shitty behavior. > unapproved software > unapproved software > unapproved software > unapproved software How is it 2020 and we're okay with this phrase? What the hell happened? Apple is an enemy of computing and the DOJ needs to break them up.

arvinsim 6y ago
> How is it 2020 and we're okay with this phrase? What the hell happened? Shareholders happened, that's why. The lines between company and customers are blurred, giving perverse incentives to defend company practices that wouldn't fly if there were a clear distinction.
- ksec 6y ago
  >The lines between company and customers are blurred... “There are only two industries that refer to their customers as 'users': illegal drugs and software. " — Edward Tufte
zepto 6y ago
No. You just need to not buy an Apple product. Apple is a friend of people who want a curated store. There are other options for those who don’t.
- echelon 6y ago
  > You just need to not buy an Apple product. Consumer behavior won't change Apple. We need the strong arm of the DOJ to tell Apple not to do this. > Apple is a friend Apple is not a friend of anybody. They're a for-profit company.
  - zepto 6y ago
    I’m not suggesting consumer behavior should change Apple. I’m suggesting that consumers should buy a product that that suits their needs. If you need alternate stores - buy Android. There is no reason at all for Apple to be forced to do anything.

walrus01 6y ago

> Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule. If you think curl or wget are evil unapproved software I don't see how presenting a rational argument as a counterpoint could possibly be of any benefit. Sometimes I forget that people with such opinions actually exist. This is almost literally like the people I've seen freak out about seeing someone do complex things from the command line in a public place (coffee shop, etc) and jump to the wildly wrong conclusion that something was being "hacked".

noahtallen 6y ago
I don’t think folks think that wget or curl are evil. It just seems pretty obvious that this kind of app would be forbidden by Apple. Which sucks, but I don’t think it’s surprising.

TheKarateKid 6y ago

> Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule. Is it? Apple can one day decide that a web page with JavaScript loading in an app is “unapproved software.” And now your entire app/business is in jeopardy. And what about apps like Reddit and Imgur that host tons of NSFW content, yet are allowed to be published in the App Store? Apple has more blurred lines than Robin Thicke.

jacobwilliamroy 6y ago

You just reminded me of the "Airport Manager of Conscious Perceptions" from that Onion news story about Franz Kafka International Airport. I hear his voice in my head when I read your comment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEyFH-a-XoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEyFH-a-XoQ