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> literal Nazis Is it all the swastikas? Maybe it’s all the swastikas. It’s disingenuous to suggest that far-right extremists aren’t dominating the messaging

> literal Nazis Is it all the swastikas? Maybe it’s all the swastikas. It’s disingenuous to suggest that far-right extremists aren’t dominating the messaging from the right, and that Donald Trump isn’t amplifying them.

jonsno56 6y ago
Agree - Literal swastikas. In America, a country whose most patriotic war was the one where we kicked the shit out of swastikas
saargrin 6y ago
many people who have nothing to do with swastikas have been called literally nazis including myself,an israeli jew
- markdown 6y ago
  To be fair, certain Israeli jews are the most Nazi-like people on the planet. Do you perhaps support an Israeli government that's engaged in apartheid and other Nazi-like behaviour.
  - andi999 6y ago
    Nah, Israeli are cool. The left just doesnt like it that they (generally) do not have a victim mentality.
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      Not sure what “victim mentality” is trying to imply. Sometimes people really are victims. Did European Jews during WW2 have a “victim mentality”, by your standards?
      - andi999 6y ago
        No, obviously they were victims. Victim mentality is something different: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality
    - markdown 6y ago
      Are you responding to someone else? I don't understand your reference to "the left". I certainly didn't say anything about directions. I agree that Israel the state does not have a victim mentality. Like the Hitler's Germany.
- drran 6y ago
  National socialism is philosophy, which can be applied everywhere, including Israeli. If somebody thinks that his nation is "gifted", while others are not, so government must support gifted people and punish other peoples, then it's National Socialism, regardless of country and nationality.
  - jl2718 6y ago
    The formula “government must [support] X people, and [mitigate] Y people” seems like a pretty consistent formula for all collectivism. They only differ in the reasoning. It could be anything: smart/dumb, peaceful/violent, weak/strong, poor/rich. And in any order. Today people seem to be fixated on race. I wonder if we’ll ever get past that.
  - saargrin 6y ago
    Nazism is one thing , national socialism is another (with non-capital letters) to my understanding , national socialism is in principle a socialism that is tooled to deliver social policies within a ntaion-state , which is not a very controversial idea . there is no intrinsic need to punish anybody for anything and frankly , thinking that one's nation is "gifted" is not an illegitimate opinion, even if its probably wrong ,as long as it doesnt translate into any kind of racist or expansionary policy
    - drran 6y ago
      Nazism is formally known as National Socialism. (Wikipedia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
- scsilver 6y ago
  Yeah but what about the ones holding swastikas saying chanting "Blood and soil, Jews will not replace us" who were not condemned by the to of GOP leadership. The left uses their words like a shotgun, however, theres still nazis out there.
  - koolba 6y ago
    Not condemned? He literally used the phrase “condemned totally” referring to them. How much more condemned can you get? Here’s a direct quote from Trump’s press conference: > “It’s fine, you’re changing history, you’re changing culture, and you had people – and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally – but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay?” It’s an outright lie to claim otherwise and the media was complicit in allowing Biden to do so. Over and over.
    - scsilver 6y ago
      The first statement said both sides, the second statement 2 days later tried to clarify the statement with an excuse that he was saying other people that walked amongst nazi were the good people. As a constant pattern of trumps presidency, he throws out a dog whistle and then walks it back 2 days later sayig he was taken out of context, misspoke, or was joking. You can claim he's fighting against antisemitism and racism, but I just straight up don't trust his good faith. My jewish eyes see him as supporting nazis and a supporter of those who walk with nazis. Him being a poor communicator is a lackluster excuse why I should trust him. All those other good people walked under those nazi flags. Why would I trust them either?
      - koolba 6y ago
        > The first statement said both sides, the second statement 2 days later tried to clarify the statement with an excuse that he was saying other people that walked amongst nazi were the good people. The first statement is in regards to people protesting to bring down monuments. There’s clearly two sides to that argument and there are many fine people, myself included, that do not want to see statues of Lincoln torn now. > As a constant pattern of trumps presidency, he throws out a dog whistle and then walks it back 2 days later sayig he was taken out of context, misspoke, or was joking. You can claim he's fighting against antisemitism and racism, but I just straight up don't trust his good faith. If your own biases interpret everything in some perverted negative light, then it’s an impossible standard to meet. > My jewish eyes see him as supporting nazis and a supporter of those who walk with nazis. And yet his grandchildren are Jewish and he’s had more success negotiating Middle East peace deals that benefit Israel than any other president. If he’s Nazi supporter he’s doing a pretty crappy job at it. > Him being a poor communicator is a lackluster excuse why I should trust him. If you refuse to ever give the benefit of the doubt then why even argue about it? > All those other good people walked under those nazi flags. Why would I trust them either? Nobody says to trust them. But they’re not the only ones that wanted to preserve historic statues. That’s like reducing all of recent racial / police protests to a bunch of looters robbing a Best Buy.
raarts 6y ago
It's also disingenuous to suggest the extreme left isn't dominating the messaging from the left. The extremes tend to dominate the messaging on both sides. And frankly, the internet being dominated by younger people, there is a good case to be made that the extreme left's voices are louder.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  What you call extreme left in USA is barely center left in any other country in the west What is called far right in USA is the same thing we call neo-fascism anywhere else In US a socialist party is unimaginable, in Germany it is the largest party of the center left, same in Italy, France, Spain, Scandinavia So probably the bias comes from living in a country that's leaning towards the right in its entirety @moderators: have I earned the automatic downvote? Whatever I post shows zero points as soon as it is posted.
  - raarts 6y ago
    That used to be the case, but it has changed. The last 10 years the extreme left in the US has shifted left, passing even the European left, at least according to Pew[1]. I don't think this particular report mentions the European part, can't find that right now, but they mentioned it in another report on it. I would like to add that the Critical Race Theory (where DEI originates from) is only recently starting to get traction in for example The Netherlands, traditionally an already pretty left-leaning country. [1] https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/10/05162647/10-05-2017-Political-landscape-release.pdf https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/20...
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      But that doesn't mean that the Democratic party message comes from the far left. Biden can't pronounce the word "free healthcare" for fear of losing votes. That's what I was contesting: far right is right at the centre of the political scene side by side with Trump, far left is not because it has no direct representation in the political system. Unless you consider someone like Sanders a far left extremists, which is not. Far left movements are mostly extra-parliamentary
Proziam 6y ago
I'm conservative. I'm active on social media. I don't see what you're talking about at all. My feed is constantly being inundated with "We need to make lists of every trump supporter" and similar, but never do I see the supposed ultra-widespread nazi/alt-right hate. Trump, for all his flaws, has disavowed white supremacy so many times it hurts to watch and even the most famous "very fine people" quote was [0] taken out of context (if you can call that anything but an outright lie, frankly). The membership of racist organizations like the KKK is small, vanishingly small. It's not even .1% of Trumps base. [1] And, more importantly, it's shrinking. It has been for a very long time. [1]Despite their diminishing numbers, there are still approximately 3,000 Klan members nationwide, as well an additional but unknown number of associates and supporters. Even with relatively small numbers, groups like the North Carolinabased Loyal White Knights (LWK), perhaps the most active Klan group in the United States today, have a fairly expansive geographical reach. In 2015, with just 150-200 members, they were able to draw attention to themselves in 15 different states (mostly in the south and east), typically through fliering, which requires only a single participant. [2][3] It is a matter of public record that Biden supported segregationists, voted against integration-supporting policies like bussing (which Kamala Harris roasted him for repeatedly), and pushed legislation that disproportionately harmed black folks. Ultimately, there's plenty of good reasons to dislike Trump that are completely and unarguably valid. Covid, John Bolton, numerous conflicts of interest (like using personal assets for the military and government functions) are a small piece of that. But calling Trump racist or a nazi is just taking the bait that his political opponents have set out. In my personal opinion, Biden is the worse choice for president purely on the basis of his likelihood of supporting additional war efforts (whereas Trump is the first president in 40 years not to start a new war - AND has helped bring about a series of peace treaties in the middle east.) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfzJATDmXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfzJATDmXs [1] https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/state-of-the-kkk https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/state-of-the... [2] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-busing-incarceration-racial-justice-democratic-primary-2020-explained.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-... [3] https://www.npr.org/2020/10/14/920385802/biden-vows-to-ease-racial-divisions-heres-his-record https://www.npr.org/2020/10/14/920385802/biden-vows-to-ease-...
- 6y ago
mlindner 6y ago
> Is it all the swastikas? Maybe it’s all the swastikas. The only swastikas I've seen are on public bathroom stalls and I've seen them for many many years and they haven't increased in frequency in recent years. Increase in visibility isn't equivalent to increase in frequency.

jonsno56 6y ago

Agree - Literal swastikas. In America, a country whose most patriotic war was the one where we kicked the shit out of swastikas

saargrin 6y ago

many people who have nothing to do with swastikas have been called literally nazis including myself,an israeli jew

markdown 6y ago
To be fair, certain Israeli jews are the most Nazi-like people on the planet. Do you perhaps support an Israeli government that's engaged in apartheid and other Nazi-like behaviour.
- andi999 6y ago
  Nah, Israeli are cool. The left just doesnt like it that they (generally) do not have a victim mentality.
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    Not sure what “victim mentality” is trying to imply. Sometimes people really are victims. Did European Jews during WW2 have a “victim mentality”, by your standards?
    - andi999 6y ago
      No, obviously they were victims. Victim mentality is something different: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality
  - markdown 6y ago
    Are you responding to someone else? I don't understand your reference to "the left". I certainly didn't say anything about directions. I agree that Israel the state does not have a victim mentality. Like the Hitler's Germany.
drran 6y ago
National socialism is philosophy, which can be applied everywhere, including Israeli. If somebody thinks that his nation is "gifted", while others are not, so government must support gifted people and punish other peoples, then it's National Socialism, regardless of country and nationality.
- jl2718 6y ago
  The formula “government must [support] X people, and [mitigate] Y people” seems like a pretty consistent formula for all collectivism. They only differ in the reasoning. It could be anything: smart/dumb, peaceful/violent, weak/strong, poor/rich. And in any order. Today people seem to be fixated on race. I wonder if we’ll ever get past that.
- saargrin 6y ago
  Nazism is one thing , national socialism is another (with non-capital letters) to my understanding , national socialism is in principle a socialism that is tooled to deliver social policies within a ntaion-state , which is not a very controversial idea . there is no intrinsic need to punish anybody for anything and frankly , thinking that one's nation is "gifted" is not an illegitimate opinion, even if its probably wrong ,as long as it doesnt translate into any kind of racist or expansionary policy
  - drran 6y ago
    Nazism is formally known as National Socialism. (Wikipedia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
scsilver 6y ago
Yeah but what about the ones holding swastikas saying chanting "Blood and soil, Jews will not replace us" who were not condemned by the to of GOP leadership. The left uses their words like a shotgun, however, theres still nazis out there.
- koolba 6y ago
  Not condemned? He literally used the phrase “condemned totally” referring to them. How much more condemned can you get? Here’s a direct quote from Trump’s press conference: > “It’s fine, you’re changing history, you’re changing culture, and you had people – and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally – but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay?” It’s an outright lie to claim otherwise and the media was complicit in allowing Biden to do so. Over and over.
  - scsilver 6y ago
    The first statement said both sides, the second statement 2 days later tried to clarify the statement with an excuse that he was saying other people that walked amongst nazi were the good people. As a constant pattern of trumps presidency, he throws out a dog whistle and then walks it back 2 days later sayig he was taken out of context, misspoke, or was joking. You can claim he's fighting against antisemitism and racism, but I just straight up don't trust his good faith. My jewish eyes see him as supporting nazis and a supporter of those who walk with nazis. Him being a poor communicator is a lackluster excuse why I should trust him. All those other good people walked under those nazi flags. Why would I trust them either?
    - koolba 6y ago
      > The first statement said both sides, the second statement 2 days later tried to clarify the statement with an excuse that he was saying other people that walked amongst nazi were the good people. The first statement is in regards to people protesting to bring down monuments. There’s clearly two sides to that argument and there are many fine people, myself included, that do not want to see statues of Lincoln torn now. > As a constant pattern of trumps presidency, he throws out a dog whistle and then walks it back 2 days later sayig he was taken out of context, misspoke, or was joking. You can claim he's fighting against antisemitism and racism, but I just straight up don't trust his good faith. If your own biases interpret everything in some perverted negative light, then it’s an impossible standard to meet. > My jewish eyes see him as supporting nazis and a supporter of those who walk with nazis. And yet his grandchildren are Jewish and he’s had more success negotiating Middle East peace deals that benefit Israel than any other president. If he’s Nazi supporter he’s doing a pretty crappy job at it. > Him being a poor communicator is a lackluster excuse why I should trust him. If you refuse to ever give the benefit of the doubt then why even argue about it? > All those other good people walked under those nazi flags. Why would I trust them either? Nobody says to trust them. But they’re not the only ones that wanted to preserve historic statues. That’s like reducing all of recent racial / police protests to a bunch of looters robbing a Best Buy.

raarts 6y ago

It's also disingenuous to suggest the extreme left isn't dominating the messaging from the left. The extremes tend to dominate the messaging on both sides. And frankly, the internet being dominated by younger people, there is a good case to be made that the extreme left's voices are louder.

romanoderoma 6y ago
What you call extreme left in USA is barely center left in any other country in the west What is called far right in USA is the same thing we call neo-fascism anywhere else In US a socialist party is unimaginable, in Germany it is the largest party of the center left, same in Italy, France, Spain, Scandinavia So probably the bias comes from living in a country that's leaning towards the right in its entirety @moderators: have I earned the automatic downvote? Whatever I post shows zero points as soon as it is posted.
- raarts 6y ago
  That used to be the case, but it has changed. The last 10 years the extreme left in the US has shifted left, passing even the European left, at least according to Pew[1]. I don't think this particular report mentions the European part, can't find that right now, but they mentioned it in another report on it. I would like to add that the Critical Race Theory (where DEI originates from) is only recently starting to get traction in for example The Netherlands, traditionally an already pretty left-leaning country. [1] https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/10/05162647/10-05-2017-Political-landscape-release.pdf https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/20...
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    But that doesn't mean that the Democratic party message comes from the far left. Biden can't pronounce the word "free healthcare" for fear of losing votes. That's what I was contesting: far right is right at the centre of the political scene side by side with Trump, far left is not because it has no direct representation in the political system. Unless you consider someone like Sanders a far left extremists, which is not. Far left movements are mostly extra-parliamentary

Proziam 6y ago

I'm conservative. I'm active on social media. I don't see what you're talking about at all. My feed is constantly being inundated with "We need to make lists of every trump supporter" and similar, but never do I see the supposed ultra-widespread nazi/alt-right hate. Trump, for all his flaws, has disavowed white supremacy so many times it hurts to watch and even the most famous "very fine people" quote was [0] taken out of context (if you can call that anything but an outright lie, frankly). The membership of racist organizations like the KKK is small, vanishingly small. It's not even .1% of Trumps base. [1] And, more importantly, it's shrinking. It has been for a very long time. [1]Despite their diminishing numbers, there are still approximately 3,000 Klan members nationwide, as well an additional but unknown number of associates and supporters. Even with relatively small numbers, groups like the North Carolinabased Loyal White Knights (LWK), perhaps the most active Klan group in the United States today, have a fairly expansive geographical reach. In 2015, with just 150-200 members, they were able to draw attention to themselves in 15 different states (mostly in the south and east), typically through fliering, which requires only a single participant. [2][3] It is a matter of public record that Biden supported segregationists, voted against integration-supporting policies like bussing (which Kamala Harris roasted him for repeatedly), and pushed legislation that disproportionately harmed black folks. Ultimately, there's plenty of good reasons to dislike Trump that are completely and unarguably valid. Covid, John Bolton, numerous conflicts of interest (like using personal assets for the military and government functions) are a small piece of that. But calling Trump racist or a nazi is just taking the bait that his political opponents have set out. In my personal opinion, Biden is the worse choice for president purely on the basis of his likelihood of supporting additional war efforts (whereas Trump is the first president in 40 years not to start a new war - AND has helped bring about a series of peace treaties in the middle east.) [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfzJATDmXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfzJATDmXs [1] https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/state-of-the-kkk https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/state-of-the... [2] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-busing-incarceration-racial-justice-democratic-primary-2020-explained.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/joe-biden-record-on-... [3] https://www.npr.org/2020/10/14/920385802/biden-vows-to-ease-racial-divisions-heres-his-record https://www.npr.org/2020/10/14/920385802/biden-vows-to-ease-...

6y ago

mlindner 6y ago

> Is it all the swastikas? Maybe it’s all the swastikas. The only swastikas I've seen are on public bathroom stalls and I've seen them for many many years and they haven't increased in frequency in recent years. Increase in visibility isn't equivalent to increase in frequency.