25 ms·

I don't care if you're liberal or conservative. The problem with Trump is that all of his success has come from lying, cheating, and manipulation. That's all he

by nso95 6y ago

I don't care if you're liberal or conservative. The problem with Trump is that all of his success has come from lying, cheating, and manipulation. That's all he knows. This was never a simple matter of political differences. This was not normal.

gear54rus 6y ago
What if everyone does it but he's just bad at it and that's why we notice. 48 laws of power opening certainly suggests so.
- carapace 6y ago
  "48 laws of power" was a book for fools though. "Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun" was better. (And "The Prince" more principled!) > What if everyone does it but he's just bad at it and that's why we notice. Seriously though, do you really believe that or are you just trolling?
  - gear54rus 6y ago
    I would definitely err on the side of believing it and you are yet to provide any concrete arguments to why I shouldn't. Which makes me think you simply don't have them.
    - carapace 6y ago
      > I would definitely err on the side of believing it You've never met one person with integrity? I mean, I admit, in my experience they're rare. Oh sure, everyone thinks that they have integrity, or at least, gets offended if you suggest they don't. But I've met a few. I even once met a politician who seemed to me to have integrity. FWIW, I can't tell if we're ruled by well-meaning incompetents, or competent evil people.
      - gear54rus 6y ago
        I've met people who don't realize how to exploit everyone around them, sure. Don't know how to distinguish them from those who can but don't.
        carapace 6y ago
        Fools and wise men look alike, eh?
Fordec 6y ago
And Trump is the first politician that has lied cheated or manipulated situations to their advantage? The only thing this time was the politician was incompetently bad at hiding it. And I say that as someone who would have been delighted with Sanders.
- carapace 6y ago
  Do you really believe that all politicians are like Donald Trump just better at hiding it?
  - Fordec 6y ago
    Please point out the place I used the word "all" or anything resembling it.
    - carapace 6y ago
      > The only thing this time was the politician was incompetently bad at hiding it. The word "only" implies that all other times all other politicians were competently good at hiding it. Are you gonna answer my question or do you just want to play logical footsie?
      - keeganpoppen 6y ago
        you're the one playing logical foootsie. nothing op said implied that all other politicians are as crooked as trump, only that all the other crooked politicians that do exist are smarter than trump. stop being so disingenuous and actually read that which you react to.
        carapace 6y ago
        That's not a very helpful response.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
Gibbon1 6y ago
If Trump had governed like say Gov Chris Christie he'd likely have won this election.
oleg131 6y ago
That's not true. He restored stock market levels which is a success, and he didn't lie or cheat to do that.
- mellow-lake-day 6y ago
  You can make an argument that he decreased taxes for the richest of the rich to do that. I don't think that is a cause worth celebrating. Not to mention that stock market levels don't translate to a good economy or good paying jobs for people. We can see that in the past months, where the stock market was doing well but economy not so much.
- bendmorris 6y ago
  Presidents seem to get a lot of, sometimes undeserved, credit for the economy when they were President. Besides inherit a strong and growing economy, what specifically did Trump do to deserve credit for the stock market growth under him? And conversely, does he deserve partial or full credit for the impact of covid-19 (and his slow response to it) on the economy at the end of his term?
  - FranzFerdiNaN 6y ago
    He did have tax cuts to the rich, which probably helped the stock market.
    - bendmorris 6y ago
      At best, we're assigning a ton of credit to him based on a vague "probably." Lots of non-Trump factors influenced the stock market over the last four years.
    - docbrown 6y ago
      I really hope these past eight months cement the idea in more peoples head that the stock market has little correlation to reality. It fluctuates based on personal sentiment from institutions and money managers. Political policies may drive the market to react in a certain way from time to time but the only real 'direct' effects come from whichever Fed Chair is appointed at the time.
njanirudh 6y ago
This is wrong on so many levels. Obama continued the war and killed thousands of innocent people, did nothing for blacks in his 8 years term but he is the baton of morality
- MagnumOpus 6y ago
  So you would have preferred if Obama left bin Laden alone, and if he let ISIS expand all over the middle East. No you would have just complained about that. Let's face it, you voted to make your country a global laughing stock in order 5o get a $5 tax cut every year.
  - fastball 6y ago
    Please don't assume how other people have voted, you have no idea who GC voted for. And yes, I for one would've preferred a faster withdrawal from the Middle East. Decades of conflict in the Middle East should make it clear to any mildly competent student of history that intervention of the sort the US has been trying (and Obama ramped up) is the opposite of effective in the long term. The only winning party is the Military Industrial Complex.
blub 6y ago
It looks to me like so many are bothered by Trump because he didn't wrap all the lying and cheating and manipulation in a likeable, family-friendly public persona, like the presidents of the past did. He certainly said a lot of outrageous or false things, but policy-wise he didn't really make any horrible decisions. So many of you want to desperately believe that the abnormal situation in the US can be pinned on one man and that once he's gone everything will go back to normal, or if not the situation will normalize to a certain extent. That just doesn't seem possible. Trump is just the convenient scapegoat for the disastrous globalisation which hollowed out American industry, for the race but especially class conflicts which were never really settled and for the ultra-aggressive capitalism which creates many more losers than winners and for the two party system which is fundamentally vulnerable to corruption.
- docbrown 6y ago
  >but policy-wise he didn't really make any horrible decisions. This is where the problem lies within our current political discourse: both parties have fundamental differences within themselves on what they view as being morally on the up-and-up. Both parties view certain demographics in their own way and this allows them to engage in policies that allow them to accomplish their end goal while never causing harm -- because they genuinely believe they are not causing harm to anyone. They're only following through on policies that match their moral compass. Until this country has a reckoning on what its fundamental values should be, there will always be a sense of distrust and skepticism between each other.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    > Until this country has a reckoning on what its fundamental values should be, there will always be a sense of distrust and skepticism between each other. Do we need to agree on fundamental values? How might it be possible to avoid reaching a (likely impossible) agreement?
    - docbrown 6y ago
      Perhaps we may not need to agree on every topic but there must be a discourse happening between each other in good faith. This rarely happens in our current political climate as most people (using Twitter as a sample group) is hyperreactive to any sort of criticism from their opponent. If we, or all nations, want to come together, our first step is to recognize the importance of the United Nations. If we are able to understand that the United Nations can be an apolitical checks and balance to all countries, it may be a major step forward. An ideal theory is that all countries begin living by the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights[1]. Incorporate this into the foundation of your countries government and it sets a tone and example for which type of moral values you prioritize within your borders. [1]: https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/index.html https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ind...

by nso95 6y ago

gear54rus 6y ago

What if everyone does it but he's just bad at it and that's why we notice. 48 laws of power opening certainly suggests so.

carapace 6y ago
"48 laws of power" was a book for fools though. "Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun" was better. (And "The Prince" more principled!) > What if everyone does it but he's just bad at it and that's why we notice. Seriously though, do you really believe that or are you just trolling?
- gear54rus 6y ago
  I would definitely err on the side of believing it and you are yet to provide any concrete arguments to why I shouldn't. Which makes me think you simply don't have them.
  - carapace 6y ago
    > I would definitely err on the side of believing it You've never met one person with integrity? I mean, I admit, in my experience they're rare. Oh sure, everyone thinks that they have integrity, or at least, gets offended if you suggest they don't. But I've met a few. I even once met a politician who seemed to me to have integrity. FWIW, I can't tell if we're ruled by well-meaning incompetents, or competent evil people.
    - gear54rus 6y ago
      I've met people who don't realize how to exploit everyone around them, sure. Don't know how to distinguish them from those who can but don't.
      - carapace 6y ago
        Fools and wise men look alike, eh?

Fordec 6y ago

And Trump is the first politician that has lied cheated or manipulated situations to their advantage? The only thing this time was the politician was incompetently bad at hiding it. And I say that as someone who would have been delighted with Sanders.

carapace 6y ago
Do you really believe that all politicians are like Donald Trump just better at hiding it?
- Fordec 6y ago
  Please point out the place I used the word "all" or anything resembling it.
  - carapace 6y ago
    > The only thing this time was the politician was incompetently bad at hiding it. The word "only" implies that all other times all other politicians were competently good at hiding it. Are you gonna answer my question or do you just want to play logical footsie?
    - keeganpoppen 6y ago
      you're the one playing logical foootsie. nothing op said implied that all other politicians are as crooked as trump, only that all the other crooked politicians that do exist are smarter than trump. stop being so disingenuous and actually read that which you react to.
      - carapace 6y ago
        That's not a very helpful response.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]

Gibbon1 6y ago

If Trump had governed like say Gov Chris Christie he'd likely have won this election.

oleg131 6y ago

That's not true. He restored stock market levels which is a success, and he didn't lie or cheat to do that.

mellow-lake-day 6y ago
You can make an argument that he decreased taxes for the richest of the rich to do that. I don't think that is a cause worth celebrating. Not to mention that stock market levels don't translate to a good economy or good paying jobs for people. We can see that in the past months, where the stock market was doing well but economy not so much.
bendmorris 6y ago
Presidents seem to get a lot of, sometimes undeserved, credit for the economy when they were President. Besides inherit a strong and growing economy, what specifically did Trump do to deserve credit for the stock market growth under him? And conversely, does he deserve partial or full credit for the impact of covid-19 (and his slow response to it) on the economy at the end of his term?
- FranzFerdiNaN 6y ago
  He did have tax cuts to the rich, which probably helped the stock market.
  - bendmorris 6y ago
    At best, we're assigning a ton of credit to him based on a vague "probably." Lots of non-Trump factors influenced the stock market over the last four years.
  - docbrown 6y ago
    I really hope these past eight months cement the idea in more peoples head that the stock market has little correlation to reality. It fluctuates based on personal sentiment from institutions and money managers. Political policies may drive the market to react in a certain way from time to time but the only real 'direct' effects come from whichever Fed Chair is appointed at the time.

njanirudh 6y ago

This is wrong on so many levels. Obama continued the war and killed thousands of innocent people, did nothing for blacks in his 8 years term but he is the baton of morality

MagnumOpus 6y ago
So you would have preferred if Obama left bin Laden alone, and if he let ISIS expand all over the middle East. No you would have just complained about that. Let's face it, you voted to make your country a global laughing stock in order 5o get a $5 tax cut every year.
- fastball 6y ago
  Please don't assume how other people have voted, you have no idea who GC voted for. And yes, I for one would've preferred a faster withdrawal from the Middle East. Decades of conflict in the Middle East should make it clear to any mildly competent student of history that intervention of the sort the US has been trying (and Obama ramped up) is the opposite of effective in the long term. The only winning party is the Military Industrial Complex.

blub 6y ago

It looks to me like so many are bothered by Trump because he didn't wrap all the lying and cheating and manipulation in a likeable, family-friendly public persona, like the presidents of the past did. He certainly said a lot of outrageous or false things, but policy-wise he didn't really make any horrible decisions. So many of you want to desperately believe that the abnormal situation in the US can be pinned on one man and that once he's gone everything will go back to normal, or if not the situation will normalize to a certain extent. That just doesn't seem possible. Trump is just the convenient scapegoat for the disastrous globalisation which hollowed out American industry, for the race but especially class conflicts which were never really settled and for the ultra-aggressive capitalism which creates many more losers than winners and for the two party system which is fundamentally vulnerable to corruption.

docbrown 6y ago
>but policy-wise he didn't really make any horrible decisions. This is where the problem lies within our current political discourse: both parties have fundamental differences within themselves on what they view as being morally on the up-and-up. Both parties view certain demographics in their own way and this allows them to engage in policies that allow them to accomplish their end goal while never causing harm -- because they genuinely believe they are not causing harm to anyone. They're only following through on policies that match their moral compass. Until this country has a reckoning on what its fundamental values should be, there will always be a sense of distrust and skepticism between each other.
- lliamander 6y ago
  > Until this country has a reckoning on what its fundamental values should be, there will always be a sense of distrust and skepticism between each other. Do we need to agree on fundamental values? How might it be possible to avoid reaching a (likely impossible) agreement?
  - docbrown 6y ago
    Perhaps we may not need to agree on every topic but there must be a discourse happening between each other in good faith. This rarely happens in our current political climate as most people (using Twitter as a sample group) is hyperreactive to any sort of criticism from their opponent. If we, or all nations, want to come together, our first step is to recognize the importance of the United Nations. If we are able to understand that the United Nations can be an apolitical checks and balance to all countries, it may be a major step forward. An ideal theory is that all countries begin living by the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights[1]. Incorporate this into the foundation of your countries government and it sets a tone and example for which type of moral values you prioritize within your borders. [1]: https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/index.html https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ind...