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Growing up in a country where I was in the ethnic majority, I went through a period of right-wing political bent as a teenager. Then I came to the US, where I f

by pqhwan 6y ago

Growing up in a country where I was in the ethnic majority, I went through a period of right-wing political bent as a teenager. Then I came to the US, where I found myself in the minority and leaning left. So I feel that I have some personal insight into the mindset that pushes people right. But... maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what drove me that way, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. And that’s what I see in the right-wing of today in the US. I guess I empathize with their fear and anger better because of my experience, but I don’t buy that their arguments are just a “different” way of looking at the world; a narrower, myopic way, maybe.

millbraebart 6y ago
I was a lefty my whole life, but this BLM/covid lockdown crap was the end for me. I hardly see how 14 unarmed black men (most of not all instigating/resisting) killed by police in the entire US in 2019 represents the biggest problem for black people. My mom works in the public school system and wholly agrees. The last thing black families need is "defunding" the police. And all these lockdowns over a virus with a 99%+ survival rate? It's not just "fear and anger" for us, in the word's of the left... facts matter.
neither_color 6y ago
As a minority considered “disadvantaged” in the US I’d like to counter that there’s a lot more to the right than lack of empathy for minorities or fear. I’m very appreciative of the opportunities provided to me here and don’t appreciate the recent cultural tendency to privilege shame people or to look back on the history here as only cruel or exploitative. Trump saw the highest turnout among minorities for republicans in 60 years and it’s for a reason. I look back at Ben Franklin or Jefferson or Washington and feel inspired, I don’t think “oh, I’m not privileged I could never do what he did.” I can see people as products of their time and separate the good from the bad. As someone who grew up in an apartment shared between 2 families and worked my way up into college and the tech field I’m just shocked at how many people today have grown into learned helplessness and think that the system is so bad and irreparable that they need to vandalize and protest in cities for months. The left has done so much more to insult me and my appreciation for this country than the right, and it’s just tragic that they think they’re the only good guys. I really do believe that foreign interference to agitate our society is real, as discussed by Tristan Harris in his interview by Joe Rogan, and it’s convinced millions of young Americans that they’re somehow resisting literal Nazis.
- cauthon 6y ago
  > literal Nazis Is it all the swastikas? Maybe it’s all the swastikas. It’s disingenuous to suggest that far-right extremists aren’t dominating the messaging from the right, and that Donald Trump isn’t amplifying them.
  - jonsno56 6y ago
    Agree - Literal swastikas. In America, a country whose most patriotic war was the one where we kicked the shit out of swastikas
  - saargrin 6y ago
    many people who have nothing to do with swastikas have been called literally nazis including myself,an israeli jew
    - markdown 6y ago
      To be fair, certain Israeli jews are the most Nazi-like people on the planet. Do you perhaps support an Israeli government that's engaged in apartheid and other Nazi-like behaviour.
      - andi999 6y ago
        Nah, Israeli are cool. The left just doesnt like it that they (generally) do not have a victim mentality.
        amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        Not sure what “victim mentality” is trying to imply. Sometimes people really are victims. Did European Jews during WW2 have a “victim mentality”, by your standards?
        andi999 6y ago
        No, obviously they were victims. Victim mentality is something different: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
I would say you’re definitely misunderstanding the right in the US. It has nothing to do with that here. It’s largely the left showing fear and anger, although many seem oblivious to it.
jariel 6y ago
" maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what drove me that way, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. And that’s what I see in the right-wing of today in the US. " It seems you had a bad experience with what you felt were 'right wing' ideals but probably had little to do with that, as it would be a pretty intellectually shallow description of any kind of Conservatism (although understandable if one were to equate 'Trump' with 'Conservative' and I don't think many people would in the intellectual sense) and also oddly experientially 'upside down'. Most 'young people' are progressive, people tend to get more conservative as they get older. Cynically, one could say it's due to age and myopia, but more likely it has to do with responsibility, perspective, maturity and frankly living through decades and seeing how the world adapts. Believing in the institutions of family (and monogamy as a commitment to that institution), the objective rule of law, moral obligation through duty of various kinds of community service, prudence, faith as an integral part of worldview, a sense of community that can possibly be expressed through nationalism, the notion that people must act responsibly to the extent they are able and assume responsibility for their actions - these are not ideals of 'entitlement' frankly. Barack Obama, for example, is a 'Progressive Conservative', and he is in many ways in his own personal life a model 'cultural conservative': religious, church going, mild mannered, straight forward marriage, traditional formal education. He speaks formally and graciously, and is literally a living embodiment of many cultural historical artefacts. He didn't serve in the military but he very well could have, it's totally within his character. He's not at all that far away from Mitt Romney for example. Donald Trump is not a 'Conservative' or even 'right wing' really, he's just a jerk who found a 'following' in appealing to the worst qualities of 'bad right wing tropes'. "In 1999, Trump described himself as "very pro-choice" and said "I believe in choice." (Wikipedia) Donald Trump was a tough-guy New York 'kind of Democrat' most of his life. He always supported gay marriage. The Clintons were literally at his wedding to Melania. He's a serial scammer, effectively a polygamist who marries woman purely on the basis of their attractiveness and then dumps them later, cavorts with prostitutes, lies, cheats, steals. He changes his political views to suit the day, because they don't matter to him - he's just about being rich and popular. He's managed to convince a lot of people that he is something that he is not, and that's sad, and it's brought out the worst in so many people, and that's what we are seeing today. Have a look at this Charlie Rose interview with Senator Jeff Flake who's a much more traditional conservative, and FYI detests Donald Trump and 'fell on his sword' rather than go along with the toxicity. [1] [1] https://charlierose.com/videos/30822 https://charlierose.com/videos/30822
greggman3 6y ago
Funny but the stereotype is the opposite from the 60s. As the saying goes If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/24/heart-head/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/24/heart-head/ Note: I'm not conservative and I don't necessarily agree with the quote. The point is not that the quote is correct, the point is someone (not me) thought it was the unthinking young person that thought alone liberal lines and the experienced wise person that thought along conservative lines. Again, not agreeing, just pointing out some feel the opposite, that more experience and exposure to the world leads to more conservative thinking for some people.
- EliRivers 6y ago
  I believe there is some evidence to suggest that there was a mistaken correlation between getting older and getting more invested in the world as it is (i.e. getting richer). Given that the age at which people tend to switch is increasing, I wonder if there may be something to it.
lumberingjack 6y ago
That's really strange because I agree with exactly everything that you said except swap Democrat for Republican I was a Democrat when I was young didn't care about anybody else now I'm a Republican and I have morals
hackyhacky 6y ago
> maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what drove me that way, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. Thank you for saying this. It's hard to admit an error.
higerordermap 6y ago
> Growing up in a country where I was in the ethnic majority, I went through a period of right-wing political bent as a teenager. I think it's inevitable when majority of people that surround you have conservative views. Don't feel bad about that.
- fastball 6y ago
  > don't feel bad that you were a conservative at some point we all make mistakes My god, the sense of moral superiority.
  - mitchdoogle 6y ago
    When innocent people are murdered in their homes, who would you say are more moral? The people protecting the murderer or the people seeking justice for the murdered?
    - fastball 6y ago
      Conservatives as a cohort are murdering and/or support murdering people in their homes? What in the world are you talking about?
tacitusarc 6y ago
>I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. You point this out as if it is some moral failing on the right. In fact, this is a personal failing. It should be simple enough to recognize that for any ideology that is large enough there almost certainly exists coherent and constructive thoughts within it. If you have yet to discover them, this is not because they do not exist, it is because you're not actually looking for them. I think this is done by people on both the left and the right all the time. They fail to deeply investigate the ideas of the other side, and then criticize the other side for having no good ideas.
- SubiculumCode 6y ago
  case in point are the left and right's rhetoric on abortion, which each intentionally bypass the other side's argument. i.e. pro-life rhetoric does not acknowledge that women are inherently stakeholders, while pro-choice: woman's right to choose doesn't address whether the fetus has rights (or choice). It is difficult to make progress when rhetoric pretends that the other side does not have reasoned arguments, but is instead based on toxic masculinity/sexism/paternalism while the other side pretends that those who get abortions are just loose immoral women. I see no end of this, and that is why I choose to think about actually constructive policies: e.g. free, prevalent, effective birth control for both men and women.
- pqhwan 6y ago
  > You point this out as if it is some moral failing on the right. It’s not a comment on conservative politics as a whole, it’s a reflection on my own past immaturity, and how I recognize it in others when I see it. And I’ve had 4 years to observe Trump’s tweets, Breitbart, alt-right, Qanon, Proud Boys, so if you want to convince me that there’s constructive, long-term thinking behind any of that, you’ll have to be a little more specific than “look harder”.
JPKab 6y ago
I think you speak as if you don't currently have a bias. yet something I've noticed and even had to correct amongst coworkers who came to the United States via a student visa and then eventually obtained a green card is that they have a huge bias towards large parts of the United States. This bias has been created in their minds by university professors who have never been to these parts of the country themselves. The bias manifest in things like a coworker being afraid to accompany me on a business trip to Walmart headquarters in Northwest Arkansas thinking it was dangerously racist. I had to explain to him that there are multiple cricket leagues in the area in that racism is not nearly as prevalent in the south as Hollywood would have him believe. He ended up enjoying it so much there that he later relocated there from Fremont. Living near Boulder I routinely encounter the exact same ideological brainwashing amongst people who came to the US as students. I say this is someone that is done extensive volunteer consulting work for the Democratic party including my last gig in 2014 for the midterm elections. I agree with the vast majority of the Democratic party platform but have become very dismayed at them overemphasizing race as a motivating factor for their opposition. I can promise you that for most southern Americans that vote Republican abortion is a much bigger factor in their vote than race. and economics is much bigger than either those categories.
- highmastdon 6y ago
  As a foreigner not living in the US of A, I feel that your last paragraph outlines it perfectly. Also, a lot of the outspoken left wing is about groups and not about individuals. To mind comes: institutional racism, gender equality, white privilege, mandatory healthcare/insurance, high taxes on the rich, minimum wage
fastball 6y ago
I don't think "I didn't have a good reason for being conservative, therefore conservatives in general don't have good reasons" is a very strong argument...

by pqhwan 6y ago

millbraebart 6y ago

I was a lefty my whole life, but this BLM/covid lockdown crap was the end for me. I hardly see how 14 unarmed black men (most of not all instigating/resisting) killed by police in the entire US in 2019 represents the biggest problem for black people. My mom works in the public school system and wholly agrees. The last thing black families need is "defunding" the police. And all these lockdowns over a virus with a 99%+ survival rate? It's not just "fear and anger" for us, in the word's of the left... facts matter.

neither_color 6y ago

As a minority considered “disadvantaged” in the US I’d like to counter that there’s a lot more to the right than lack of empathy for minorities or fear. I’m very appreciative of the opportunities provided to me here and don’t appreciate the recent cultural tendency to privilege shame people or to look back on the history here as only cruel or exploitative. Trump saw the highest turnout among minorities for republicans in 60 years and it’s for a reason. I look back at Ben Franklin or Jefferson or Washington and feel inspired, I don’t think “oh, I’m not privileged I could never do what he did.” I can see people as products of their time and separate the good from the bad. As someone who grew up in an apartment shared between 2 families and worked my way up into college and the tech field I’m just shocked at how many people today have grown into learned helplessness and think that the system is so bad and irreparable that they need to vandalize and protest in cities for months. The left has done so much more to insult me and my appreciation for this country than the right, and it’s just tragic that they think they’re the only good guys. I really do believe that foreign interference to agitate our society is real, as discussed by Tristan Harris in his interview by Joe Rogan, and it’s convinced millions of young Americans that they’re somehow resisting literal Nazis.

cauthon 6y ago
> literal Nazis Is it all the swastikas? Maybe it’s all the swastikas. It’s disingenuous to suggest that far-right extremists aren’t dominating the messaging from the right, and that Donald Trump isn’t amplifying them.
- jonsno56 6y ago
  Agree - Literal swastikas. In America, a country whose most patriotic war was the one where we kicked the shit out of swastikas
- saargrin 6y ago
  many people who have nothing to do with swastikas have been called literally nazis including myself,an israeli jew
  - markdown 6y ago
    To be fair, certain Israeli jews are the most Nazi-like people on the planet. Do you perhaps support an Israeli government that's engaged in apartheid and other Nazi-like behaviour.
    - andi999 6y ago
      Nah, Israeli are cool. The left just doesnt like it that they (generally) do not have a victim mentality.
      - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        Not sure what “victim mentality” is trying to imply. Sometimes people really are victims. Did European Jews during WW2 have a “victim mentality”, by your standards?
        andi999 6y ago
        No, obviously they were victims. Victim mentality is something different: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality

lawnchair_larry 6y ago

I would say you’re definitely misunderstanding the right in the US. It has nothing to do with that here. It’s largely the left showing fear and anger, although many seem oblivious to it.

jariel 6y ago

" maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what drove me that way, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. And that’s what I see in the right-wing of today in the US. " It seems you had a bad experience with what you felt were 'right wing' ideals but probably had little to do with that, as it would be a pretty intellectually shallow description of any kind of Conservatism (although understandable if one were to equate 'Trump' with 'Conservative' and I don't think many people would in the intellectual sense) and also oddly experientially 'upside down'. Most 'young people' are progressive, people tend to get more conservative as they get older. Cynically, one could say it's due to age and myopia, but more likely it has to do with responsibility, perspective, maturity and frankly living through decades and seeing how the world adapts. Believing in the institutions of family (and monogamy as a commitment to that institution), the objective rule of law, moral obligation through duty of various kinds of community service, prudence, faith as an integral part of worldview, a sense of community that can possibly be expressed through nationalism, the notion that people must act responsibly to the extent they are able and assume responsibility for their actions - these are not ideals of 'entitlement' frankly. Barack Obama, for example, is a 'Progressive Conservative', and he is in many ways in his own personal life a model 'cultural conservative': religious, church going, mild mannered, straight forward marriage, traditional formal education. He speaks formally and graciously, and is literally a living embodiment of many cultural historical artefacts. He didn't serve in the military but he very well could have, it's totally within his character. He's not at all that far away from Mitt Romney for example. Donald Trump is not a 'Conservative' or even 'right wing' really, he's just a jerk who found a 'following' in appealing to the worst qualities of 'bad right wing tropes'. "In 1999, Trump described himself as "very pro-choice" and said "I believe in choice." (Wikipedia) Donald Trump was a tough-guy New York 'kind of Democrat' most of his life. He always supported gay marriage. The Clintons were literally at his wedding to Melania. He's a serial scammer, effectively a polygamist who marries woman purely on the basis of their attractiveness and then dumps them later, cavorts with prostitutes, lies, cheats, steals. He changes his political views to suit the day, because they don't matter to him - he's just about being rich and popular. He's managed to convince a lot of people that he is something that he is not, and that's sad, and it's brought out the worst in so many people, and that's what we are seeing today. Have a look at this Charlie Rose interview with Senator Jeff Flake who's a much more traditional conservative, and FYI detests Donald Trump and 'fell on his sword' rather than go along with the toxicity. [1] [1] https://charlierose.com/videos/30822 https://charlierose.com/videos/30822

greggman3 6y ago

Funny but the stereotype is the opposite from the 60s. As the saying goes If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/24/heart-head/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/24/heart-head/ Note: I'm not conservative and I don't necessarily agree with the quote. The point is not that the quote is correct, the point is someone (not me) thought it was the unthinking young person that thought alone liberal lines and the experienced wise person that thought along conservative lines. Again, not agreeing, just pointing out some feel the opposite, that more experience and exposure to the world leads to more conservative thinking for some people.

EliRivers 6y ago
I believe there is some evidence to suggest that there was a mistaken correlation between getting older and getting more invested in the world as it is (i.e. getting richer). Given that the age at which people tend to switch is increasing, I wonder if there may be something to it.

lumberingjack 6y ago

That's really strange because I agree with exactly everything that you said except swap Democrat for Republican I was a Democrat when I was young didn't care about anybody else now I'm a Republican and I have morals

hackyhacky 6y ago

> maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what drove me that way, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. Thank you for saying this. It's hard to admit an error.

higerordermap 6y ago

> Growing up in a country where I was in the ethnic majority, I went through a period of right-wing political bent as a teenager. I think it's inevitable when majority of people that surround you have conservative views. Don't feel bad about that.

fastball 6y ago
> don't feel bad that you were a conservative at some point we all make mistakes My god, the sense of moral superiority.
- mitchdoogle 6y ago
  When innocent people are murdered in their homes, who would you say are more moral? The people protecting the murderer or the people seeking justice for the murdered?
  - fastball 6y ago
    Conservatives as a cohort are murdering and/or support murdering people in their homes? What in the world are you talking about?

tacitusarc 6y ago

>I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. You point this out as if it is some moral failing on the right. In fact, this is a personal failing. It should be simple enough to recognize that for any ideology that is large enough there almost certainly exists coherent and constructive thoughts within it. If you have yet to discover them, this is not because they do not exist, it is because you're not actually looking for them. I think this is done by people on both the left and the right all the time. They fail to deeply investigate the ideas of the other side, and then criticize the other side for having no good ideas.

SubiculumCode 6y ago
case in point are the left and right's rhetoric on abortion, which each intentionally bypass the other side's argument. i.e. pro-life rhetoric does not acknowledge that women are inherently stakeholders, while pro-choice: woman's right to choose doesn't address whether the fetus has rights (or choice). It is difficult to make progress when rhetoric pretends that the other side does not have reasoned arguments, but is instead based on toxic masculinity/sexism/paternalism while the other side pretends that those who get abortions are just loose immoral women. I see no end of this, and that is why I choose to think about actually constructive policies: e.g. free, prevalent, effective birth control for both men and women.
pqhwan 6y ago
> You point this out as if it is some moral failing on the right. It’s not a comment on conservative politics as a whole, it’s a reflection on my own past immaturity, and how I recognize it in others when I see it. And I’ve had 4 years to observe Trump’s tweets, Breitbart, alt-right, Qanon, Proud Boys, so if you want to convince me that there’s constructive, long-term thinking behind any of that, you’ll have to be a little more specific than “look harder”.

JPKab 6y ago

I think you speak as if you don't currently have a bias. yet something I've noticed and even had to correct amongst coworkers who came to the United States via a student visa and then eventually obtained a green card is that they have a huge bias towards large parts of the United States. This bias has been created in their minds by university professors who have never been to these parts of the country themselves. The bias manifest in things like a coworker being afraid to accompany me on a business trip to Walmart headquarters in Northwest Arkansas thinking it was dangerously racist. I had to explain to him that there are multiple cricket leagues in the area in that racism is not nearly as prevalent in the south as Hollywood would have him believe. He ended up enjoying it so much there that he later relocated there from Fremont. Living near Boulder I routinely encounter the exact same ideological brainwashing amongst people who came to the US as students. I say this is someone that is done extensive volunteer consulting work for the Democratic party including my last gig in 2014 for the midterm elections. I agree with the vast majority of the Democratic party platform but have become very dismayed at them overemphasizing race as a motivating factor for their opposition. I can promise you that for most southern Americans that vote Republican abortion is a much bigger factor in their vote than race. and economics is much bigger than either those categories.

highmastdon 6y ago
As a foreigner not living in the US of A, I feel that your last paragraph outlines it perfectly. Also, a lot of the outspoken left wing is about groups and not about individuals. To mind comes: institutional racism, gender equality, white privilege, mandatory healthcare/insurance, high taxes on the rich, minimum wage

fastball 6y ago

I don't think "I didn't have a good reason for being conservative, therefore conservatives in general don't have good reasons" is a very strong argument...