4 ms·

Their "facts" include gems like pedophilia rings run out of nonexistent basements below pizza shops, the Q-anon conspiracy (Trump's going to take down the evil

Their "facts" include gems like pedophilia rings run out of nonexistent basements below pizza shops, the Q-anon conspiracy (Trump's going to take down the evil cabal any day now!), and millions of illegal voters and criminals around every corner. Zero evidence for any of it. These aren't fringe views as many of us can attest to - this is crap millions have to listen to every day coming from their closest friends and family. Two decades ago the Republican party acted as a bulwark against rapid change and as the yin in the yin-yang of individual vs collective. Not no more; we don't have another two decades for our education system to bring us back from the brink.

semi-colon 6y ago
This approach right here is why things are getting worse. Do you know Tylenol can cause horrible death where you have all your skin fall off and veins explode? Do you talk about this when you have take that simple medication? Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns.
- akiselev 6y ago
  > Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns. They're not even the most extreme, that's why there's no common ground! The most extreme would be the honest to goodness neo-nazis like the ones marching through Charleston a few years ago, several other flavors of white supremacists and "nationalists" like the NatCons and Bugaloo Boys, religious extremists like Pence, their crazier brother the dominionists like Bill Bar, and outright authoritarians (all of the above). I'm all for finding common ground, but I don't care for the liberals putting in the extra effort anymore, just to have bad faith actors take advantage of it. It's time for the conservatives to "find common ground" by getting their house in order. Get rid of the Nazis, get rid of the supremacists, get rid of the extremists, and undo all the damage that Barry Goldwater predicted the preachers would do.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    You definitely won’t find common ground if you think the Republicans accept or even tolerate Nazis and white supremacists. They have about as much to do with them as the democrats have to do with the KKK (which was started by democrats).
  - Bjartr 6y ago
    While this view is potentially applicable to the party as a whole. I still maintain that the best way to engage with an individual is to try to understand, from their perspective, why they've come to the conclusion they've come to. Even when they say there's nothing to understand. Even for those with extreme, reprehensible views. You can understamd without agreeing, but it takes effort to fight down the "cast out the evil other side" feeling that is super easy to fall into. Most people aren't that one-dimensional, even when they've wrapped themselves up in a one-dimensonal identity. There is nuance and context to how each person arrives at the conclusions they do, even when they'd struggle to explain or remember it. If you refuse to empathize, you're making things worse.
zmmmmm 6y ago
I honestly think that if Biden does nothing else, engineering an environment where people accept basic common facts has to be somewhere at the start of it. As you say, once your base facts about reality differ there's really no hope for reconciliation about things at a higher level than that. And for all the healthy spirit of "both-sides-ism" in this thread, I will put it out there that there is one side that has egregiously allowed it and its supporters to become detached from reality. Note I'm not talking about "bias" here which both sides certainly exhibit, but concrete basic verifiable facts of reality. I really don't see how much can be achieved if we can't repair that. And as much as I want to encourage a new spirit of unity, I fear that if that becomes an excuse to not confront this problem, then it will actually just make things worse.
- Threeve303 6y ago
  The best way I’ve heard this described is that we are all part of a book club that meets every four years to talk about the book we read. Some show up to discuss a book they didn’t read, others show up having read a completely different book than the other half. We have no common ground anymore. Everything is inherently political or can be made political. It’s somewhat of a surreal game you can play. Name something not political.
- akiselev 6y ago
  I agree. I don't think the vast majority of conservatives are intransigent, just so emotional wrapped up in their beliefs that they're completely unable to distinguish fact from fiction. I don't think it's a coincidence that it happened to the party that Barry Goldwater referenced in this prediction: "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." It's not a coincidence that the qanon conspiracy is chock full of rhetoric about satanic rituals either. > And as much as I want to encourage a new spirit of unity, I fear that if that becomes an excuse to not confront this problem, then it will actually just make things worse. Here's why I have absolutely zero faith that a spirit of unity will work: this "situation" has been festering since the founding of this nation and every time "unity" prevailed, the can was just kicked down the road. We wanted "All men are created equal" and got the 3/5ths compromise. We tried to save the Union, only to give up on Reconstruction before it could even really begin while institutionalizing slavery in the 13th amendment. Instead of letting general Sherman raze the south, we paid for their rebuild on the backs of "free" African Americans and let them institute Jim Crow laws to continue the oppression. When the Civil Rights movement and desegregation finally came home to roost, it caused the biggest political realignment in this country's history taking us up to this point. We wanted the best, but it turned out like always.
aapl88888 6y ago
I suspect you're lying because Pew research shows the vast majority of Republicans don't even know what QAnon is. More Democrats know about QAnon than Republicans (28% vs 18%). https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/30/qanons-conspiracy-theories-have-seeped-into-u-s-politics-but-most-dont-know-what-it-is/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/30/qanons-cons... Your kind of rhetoric is what's dividing people.
- akiselev 6y ago
  I'm lying about my personal experience with my family? 18% of Republicans is at least ten million people, if not tens of millions, which is an order of magnitude more than I thought. Pizzagate and the illegal voters was the party line from Fox including Hannity and Carlson and is easily accessible with a [whatever you prefer] search. The time for rhetoric and comity was a year ago when COVID didn't kill hundreds of thousands. Now is the time for action.
  - aapl88888 6y ago
    That is a ridiculous argument to be honest. 100% of Americans have heard of Nazism. Does that mean 100% of Americans are Nazis? By your logic, more Democrats are QAnon believers (28%).
    - akiselev 6y ago
      Fair point, but the Democrats aren't the ones literally espousing Qanon and Nazi rhetoric. The number is somewhere in the middle, enough so that all the major networks utter the name on a regular basis.
      - aapl88888 6y ago
        I just did a Google search for QAnon for Tucker and Fox News. The news on QAnon are labeled under "conspiracy" on foxnews.com. I see no promotion of the QAnon theory anywhere.
Bjartr 6y ago
When I say "facts", I don't mean the politically charged "facts" that people argue with. I mean the ones about their life experiences that led them to the dark place they find themselves in. You don't exit the womb a neo-nazi, you get there over time, through (bad) experience, and (questionable) learning. If you can't answer the "why do they believe what they do?" with a genuine, i.e. not rhetoric, not othering, answer, you don't have the facts. There are truly horrible people out there, but the vast majority of people that voted Trump are normal people with boring everyday lives. Treating every individual in that group like its extremists serves only to divide and polarize. It makes the problem worse. IF your goal is to effect positive change, you need to take a different approach. However, if you goal is to feel superior and good and like you're "on the right team", feel free to keep hating.

semi-colon 6y ago

This approach right here is why things are getting worse. Do you know Tylenol can cause horrible death where you have all your skin fall off and veins explode? Do you talk about this when you have take that simple medication? Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns.

akiselev 6y ago
> Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns. They're not even the most extreme, that's why there's no common ground! The most extreme would be the honest to goodness neo-nazis like the ones marching through Charleston a few years ago, several other flavors of white supremacists and "nationalists" like the NatCons and Bugaloo Boys, religious extremists like Pence, their crazier brother the dominionists like Bill Bar, and outright authoritarians (all of the above). I'm all for finding common ground, but I don't care for the liberals putting in the extra effort anymore, just to have bad faith actors take advantage of it. It's time for the conservatives to "find common ground" by getting their house in order. Get rid of the Nazis, get rid of the supremacists, get rid of the extremists, and undo all the damage that Barry Goldwater predicted the preachers would do.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  You definitely won’t find common ground if you think the Republicans accept or even tolerate Nazis and white supremacists. They have about as much to do with them as the democrats have to do with the KKK (which was started by democrats).
- Bjartr 6y ago
  While this view is potentially applicable to the party as a whole. I still maintain that the best way to engage with an individual is to try to understand, from their perspective, why they've come to the conclusion they've come to. Even when they say there's nothing to understand. Even for those with extreme, reprehensible views. You can understamd without agreeing, but it takes effort to fight down the "cast out the evil other side" feeling that is super easy to fall into. Most people aren't that one-dimensional, even when they've wrapped themselves up in a one-dimensonal identity. There is nuance and context to how each person arrives at the conclusions they do, even when they'd struggle to explain or remember it. If you refuse to empathize, you're making things worse.

zmmmmm 6y ago

I honestly think that if Biden does nothing else, engineering an environment where people accept basic common facts has to be somewhere at the start of it. As you say, once your base facts about reality differ there's really no hope for reconciliation about things at a higher level than that. And for all the healthy spirit of "both-sides-ism" in this thread, I will put it out there that there is one side that has egregiously allowed it and its supporters to become detached from reality. Note I'm not talking about "bias" here which both sides certainly exhibit, but concrete basic verifiable facts of reality. I really don't see how much can be achieved if we can't repair that. And as much as I want to encourage a new spirit of unity, I fear that if that becomes an excuse to not confront this problem, then it will actually just make things worse.

Threeve303 6y ago
The best way I’ve heard this described is that we are all part of a book club that meets every four years to talk about the book we read. Some show up to discuss a book they didn’t read, others show up having read a completely different book than the other half. We have no common ground anymore. Everything is inherently political or can be made political. It’s somewhat of a surreal game you can play. Name something not political.
akiselev 6y ago
I agree. I don't think the vast majority of conservatives are intransigent, just so emotional wrapped up in their beliefs that they're completely unable to distinguish fact from fiction. I don't think it's a coincidence that it happened to the party that Barry Goldwater referenced in this prediction: "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." It's not a coincidence that the qanon conspiracy is chock full of rhetoric about satanic rituals either. > And as much as I want to encourage a new spirit of unity, I fear that if that becomes an excuse to not confront this problem, then it will actually just make things worse. Here's why I have absolutely zero faith that a spirit of unity will work: this "situation" has been festering since the founding of this nation and every time "unity" prevailed, the can was just kicked down the road. We wanted "All men are created equal" and got the 3/5ths compromise. We tried to save the Union, only to give up on Reconstruction before it could even really begin while institutionalizing slavery in the 13th amendment. Instead of letting general Sherman raze the south, we paid for their rebuild on the backs of "free" African Americans and let them institute Jim Crow laws to continue the oppression. When the Civil Rights movement and desegregation finally came home to roost, it caused the biggest political realignment in this country's history taking us up to this point. We wanted the best, but it turned out like always.

aapl88888 6y ago

I suspect you're lying because Pew research shows the vast majority of Republicans don't even know what QAnon is. More Democrats know about QAnon than Republicans (28% vs 18%). https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/30/qanons-conspiracy-theories-have-seeped-into-u-s-politics-but-most-dont-know-what-it-is/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/30/qanons-cons... Your kind of rhetoric is what's dividing people.

akiselev 6y ago
I'm lying about my personal experience with my family? 18% of Republicans is at least ten million people, if not tens of millions, which is an order of magnitude more than I thought. Pizzagate and the illegal voters was the party line from Fox including Hannity and Carlson and is easily accessible with a [whatever you prefer] search. The time for rhetoric and comity was a year ago when COVID didn't kill hundreds of thousands. Now is the time for action.
- aapl88888 6y ago
  That is a ridiculous argument to be honest. 100% of Americans have heard of Nazism. Does that mean 100% of Americans are Nazis? By your logic, more Democrats are QAnon believers (28%).
  - akiselev 6y ago
    Fair point, but the Democrats aren't the ones literally espousing Qanon and Nazi rhetoric. The number is somewhere in the middle, enough so that all the major networks utter the name on a regular basis.
    - aapl88888 6y ago
      I just did a Google search for QAnon for Tucker and Fox News. The news on QAnon are labeled under "conspiracy" on foxnews.com. I see no promotion of the QAnon theory anywhere.

Bjartr 6y ago

When I say "facts", I don't mean the politically charged "facts" that people argue with. I mean the ones about their life experiences that led them to the dark place they find themselves in. You don't exit the womb a neo-nazi, you get there over time, through (bad) experience, and (questionable) learning. If you can't answer the "why do they believe what they do?" with a genuine, i.e. not rhetoric, not othering, answer, you don't have the facts. There are truly horrible people out there, but the vast majority of people that voted Trump are normal people with boring everyday lives. Treating every individual in that group like its extremists serves only to divide and polarize. It makes the problem worse. IF your goal is to effect positive change, you need to take a different approach. However, if you goal is to feel superior and good and like you're "on the right team", feel free to keep hating.