4 ms·

That's what I used to believe, but these aren't people I see on TV, these are people I actually spoke to. When they ignored the facts I asked them what facts wo

That's what I used to believe, but these aren't people I see on TV, these are people I actually spoke to. When they ignored the facts I asked them what facts would change their mind and was told point blank that there were no facts that would change their mind. I don't see how you can engage with that.

dbrueck 6y ago
Sure, I don't disagree with you on that point at all - but for every 1 of those there are 10 (100? 1000? more?) who aren't like that but who, given what was effectively a binary choice, voted the same way that they did. The die-hard (blind) fanatics on either end of the spectrum don't make a big enough group to win an election, but the assumption that they are representative of everyone in that group is incorrect and - maybe more important - counterproductive.
gootdude 6y ago
Indeed, how does one have a serious discussion with someone that refuses to acknowledge 2+2=4 because they "believe" the answer is 5.
centimeter 6y ago
Without knowing anything about you personally except the distribution of intelligence here on HN and the way you talk about how much smarter you are than these yokels, you are probably not smart enough to have an outsize economically valuable model of the world and your “facts” are probably low-value memes you picked up in school and on television.
- weakfish 6y ago
  Ah yes, admit you don't know someone and then draw a caricature of them and post the comment. This is a good faith argument!
  - centimeter 6y ago
    I was open about the fact that I don't know them - but you can tell a lot about them from their comment.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Bjartr 6y ago
You engage by not going in with the intent to change a person's mind. Instead, you go in with the intent to understand their position. Just because someone's conclusion seems ridiculous or wrong doesn't mean there aren't underlying facts that, when seen from a certain perspective, and with a certain context, make that conclusion seem reasonable. There are real, legitimate, reasons why Trump voters believe what they believe. That many get caught up in the rhetoric of their "side" or don't know how to have a discussion with a goal other than "win" doesn't mean they don't see real problems that are urgent and important problems that need to be fixed. Empathize first, argue second.
- akiselev 6y ago
  Their "facts" include gems like pedophilia rings run out of nonexistent basements below pizza shops, the Q-anon conspiracy (Trump's going to take down the evil cabal any day now!), and millions of illegal voters and criminals around every corner. Zero evidence for any of it. These aren't fringe views as many of us can attest to - this is crap millions have to listen to every day coming from their closest friends and family. Two decades ago the Republican party acted as a bulwark against rapid change and as the yin in the yin-yang of individual vs collective. Not no more; we don't have another two decades for our education system to bring us back from the brink.
  - semi-colon 6y ago
    This approach right here is why things are getting worse. Do you know Tylenol can cause horrible death where you have all your skin fall off and veins explode? Do you talk about this when you have take that simple medication? Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns.
    - akiselev 6y ago
      > Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns. They're not even the most extreme, that's why there's no common ground! The most extreme would be the honest to goodness neo-nazis like the ones marching through Charleston a few years ago, several other flavors of white supremacists and "nationalists" like the NatCons and Bugaloo Boys, religious extremists like Pence, their crazier brother the dominionists like Bill Bar, and outright authoritarians (all of the above). I'm all for finding common ground, but I don't care for the liberals putting in the extra effort anymore, just to have bad faith actors take advantage of it. It's time for the conservatives to "find common ground" by getting their house in order. Get rid of the Nazis, get rid of the supremacists, get rid of the extremists, and undo all the damage that Barry Goldwater predicted the preachers would do.
Izkata 6y ago
Consider if they knew which facts would change their mind, their mind would already be changed. You have to get to know their values before you can figure out what would work.

dbrueck 6y ago

Sure, I don't disagree with you on that point at all - but for every 1 of those there are 10 (100? 1000? more?) who aren't like that but who, given what was effectively a binary choice, voted the same way that they did. The die-hard (blind) fanatics on either end of the spectrum don't make a big enough group to win an election, but the assumption that they are representative of everyone in that group is incorrect and - maybe more important - counterproductive.

gootdude 6y ago

Indeed, how does one have a serious discussion with someone that refuses to acknowledge 2+2=4 because they "believe" the answer is 5.

centimeter 6y ago

Without knowing anything about you personally except the distribution of intelligence here on HN and the way you talk about how much smarter you are than these yokels, you are probably not smart enough to have an outsize economically valuable model of the world and your “facts” are probably low-value memes you picked up in school and on television.

weakfish 6y ago
Ah yes, admit you don't know someone and then draw a caricature of them and post the comment. This is a good faith argument!
- centimeter 6y ago
  I was open about the fact that I don't know them - but you can tell a lot about them from their comment.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Bjartr 6y ago

You engage by not going in with the intent to change a person's mind. Instead, you go in with the intent to understand their position. Just because someone's conclusion seems ridiculous or wrong doesn't mean there aren't underlying facts that, when seen from a certain perspective, and with a certain context, make that conclusion seem reasonable. There are real, legitimate, reasons why Trump voters believe what they believe. That many get caught up in the rhetoric of their "side" or don't know how to have a discussion with a goal other than "win" doesn't mean they don't see real problems that are urgent and important problems that need to be fixed. Empathize first, argue second.

akiselev 6y ago
Their "facts" include gems like pedophilia rings run out of nonexistent basements below pizza shops, the Q-anon conspiracy (Trump's going to take down the evil cabal any day now!), and millions of illegal voters and criminals around every corner. Zero evidence for any of it. These aren't fringe views as many of us can attest to - this is crap millions have to listen to every day coming from their closest friends and family. Two decades ago the Republican party acted as a bulwark against rapid change and as the yin in the yin-yang of individual vs collective. Not no more; we don't have another two decades for our education system to bring us back from the brink.
- semi-colon 6y ago
  This approach right here is why things are getting worse. Do you know Tylenol can cause horrible death where you have all your skin fall off and veins explode? Do you talk about this when you have take that simple medication? Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns.
  - akiselev 6y ago
    > Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns. They're not even the most extreme, that's why there's no common ground! The most extreme would be the honest to goodness neo-nazis like the ones marching through Charleston a few years ago, several other flavors of white supremacists and "nationalists" like the NatCons and Bugaloo Boys, religious extremists like Pence, their crazier brother the dominionists like Bill Bar, and outright authoritarians (all of the above). I'm all for finding common ground, but I don't care for the liberals putting in the extra effort anymore, just to have bad faith actors take advantage of it. It's time for the conservatives to "find common ground" by getting their house in order. Get rid of the Nazis, get rid of the supremacists, get rid of the extremists, and undo all the damage that Barry Goldwater predicted the preachers would do.

Izkata 6y ago

Consider if they knew which facts would change their mind, their mind would already be changed. You have to get to know their values before you can figure out what would work.