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Yes, there is a ton of common ground with 99% of the people on the "other" side, whichever side that is from you. If one big problem facing U.S. politics right

Yes, there is a ton of common ground with 99% of the people on the "other" side, whichever side that is from you. If one big problem facing U.S. politics right now is that everything is distilled down to a binary either-or with no room for nuance, its sibling problem is assuming that everyone on the "other side" from you is the same, i.e. that the crazy extremist you see on TV is a prototypical example of everyone in that group. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.

harimau777 6y ago
That's what I used to believe, but these aren't people I see on TV, these are people I actually spoke to. When they ignored the facts I asked them what facts would change their mind and was told point blank that there were no facts that would change their mind. I don't see how you can engage with that.
- dbrueck 6y ago
  Sure, I don't disagree with you on that point at all - but for every 1 of those there are 10 (100? 1000? more?) who aren't like that but who, given what was effectively a binary choice, voted the same way that they did. The die-hard (blind) fanatics on either end of the spectrum don't make a big enough group to win an election, but the assumption that they are representative of everyone in that group is incorrect and - maybe more important - counterproductive.
- gootdude 6y ago
  Indeed, how does one have a serious discussion with someone that refuses to acknowledge 2+2=4 because they "believe" the answer is 5.
- centimeter 6y ago
  Without knowing anything about you personally except the distribution of intelligence here on HN and the way you talk about how much smarter you are than these yokels, you are probably not smart enough to have an outsize economically valuable model of the world and your “facts” are probably low-value memes you picked up in school and on television.
  - weakfish 6y ago
    Ah yes, admit you don't know someone and then draw a caricature of them and post the comment. This is a good faith argument!
    - centimeter 6y ago
      I was open about the fact that I don't know them - but you can tell a lot about them from their comment.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Bjartr 6y ago
  You engage by not going in with the intent to change a person's mind. Instead, you go in with the intent to understand their position. Just because someone's conclusion seems ridiculous or wrong doesn't mean there aren't underlying facts that, when seen from a certain perspective, and with a certain context, make that conclusion seem reasonable. There are real, legitimate, reasons why Trump voters believe what they believe. That many get caught up in the rhetoric of their "side" or don't know how to have a discussion with a goal other than "win" doesn't mean they don't see real problems that are urgent and important problems that need to be fixed. Empathize first, argue second.
  - akiselev 6y ago
    Their "facts" include gems like pedophilia rings run out of nonexistent basements below pizza shops, the Q-anon conspiracy (Trump's going to take down the evil cabal any day now!), and millions of illegal voters and criminals around every corner. Zero evidence for any of it. These aren't fringe views as many of us can attest to - this is crap millions have to listen to every day coming from their closest friends and family. Two decades ago the Republican party acted as a bulwark against rapid change and as the yin in the yin-yang of individual vs collective. Not no more; we don't have another two decades for our education system to bring us back from the brink.
    - semi-colon 6y ago
      This approach right here is why things are getting worse. Do you know Tylenol can cause horrible death where you have all your skin fall off and veins explode? Do you talk about this when you have take that simple medication? Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns.
      - akiselev 6y ago
        > Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns. They're not even the most extreme, that's why there's no common ground! The most extreme would be the honest to goodness neo-nazis like the ones marching through Charleston a few years ago, several other flavors of white supremacists and "nationalists" like the NatCons and Bugaloo Boys, religious extremists like Pence, their crazier brother the dominionists like Bill Bar, and outright authoritarians (all of the above). I'm all for finding common ground, but I don't care for the liberals putting in the extra effort anymore, just to have bad faith actors take advantage of it. It's time for the conservatives to "find common ground" by getting their house in order. Get rid of the Nazis, get rid of the supremacists, get rid of the extremists, and undo all the damage that Barry Goldwater predicted the preachers would do.
- Izkata 6y ago
  Consider if they knew which facts would change their mind, their mind would already be changed. You have to get to know their values before you can figure out what would work.
harimau777 6y ago
I don't see how that can be the case when nearly 50 percent of the country still supported Trump despite Biden running on a centrism and reconciliation platform. If this matchup wasn't enough to get Republicans to cross the aisle then I'm not sure I believe that anything is.
- abc-xyz 6y ago
  It’s possible that many Republicans did cross the aisle, just like many Democrats (such as myself) did so as well.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    >It’s possible that many Republicans did cross the aisle, just like many Democrats (such as myself) did so as well. It's possible. But the numbers don't bear this out. In every state that was close where Biden won, his margin of victory was less than the number of votes that Jo Jorgensen (the Libertarian candidate) received. That tells me that enough R-types were disgusted enough with Trump that they voted Libertarian for President and R for everyone else. Check out the numbers for yourself[0]. Just click on each state and it will break down the vote totals for each candidate. And in every. single. case. the margin of victory for Biden is less than the number of votes received by Jo Jorgensen. [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/2020-us-presidential-election-results-live-map https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/2020-us-presidential-electi...
    - syshum 6y ago
      Jo under performed Gary Johnson from 2016, so I do not believe your correlation is very valid In Some States, Like Nevada, the number of people that choose "NONE OF THESE CANDIDATES" for president more or less matches the number of people that voted for Jo... Further an over all Analysis shows there were almost as many Split Biden votes, as there were Split Trump Votes This idea that "3rd party spoils the election" or changes the election has been dis-proven often, as absent the 3rd choice most people that vote 3rd party simply do not vote at all, or choose no one in that particular race (which is an option most people for get, you do not have to pick a person in every race on a ballot, blank is a valid choice)
redisman 6y ago
Politics here stopped being about policy so now it's just a very unproductive culture war battlefield. Absolutely nothing will ever be achieved in that state. There are enough policies that both sides overwhelmingly support to keep this congress busy - marijuana legalization being the lowest hanging fruit from what I can see. Some kind of a federal minimum wage hike is another one.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  I assume by "both sides" you mean both sides in the citizenry, not both sides in congress.
xnyan 6y ago
>Yes, there is a ton of common ground What's an example of some common ground you see, and very roughly how does it happen? For example, we all agree that X is bad, so we will pass a bill to do Y. Obviously, that example is hypothetical. Any common ground will not involve legislation as the explicitly stated and (very successfully practiced for 6 years) position of one party is a hard-stop on any legislative cooperation.
- jariel 6y ago
  This may be a surprise, but there is 'Common Ground' on almost all of the issues, even the most difficult, like abortion. 85% of Americans believe there is racism in America. If it were not political, reform in the prison system could absolutely be achieved. The vast majority of Americans would accept reforms to Healthcare if each law were not hugely politicized. For example, some Republican voters accept or reject literally the same policy when it's presented by different sides of the aisle. Americans would overwhelmingly accept some kind of Amnesty for children of migrants, and 'some kind' of program for others if - on the other side of the aisle - there were serious reforms and enhancements to ensure border integrity. Any attempt to offer amnesty would probably be weaponized by Republicans and Fox for political points. The majority of Americans believe that fetus/babies that are viable in the 3rd trimester (i.e. could be born premature) should not be up for abortion. But that 'the day of conception' isn't really tantamount to life. But the extremists won't allow for any common ground. Even on business tax, income tax - if you actually put numbers together, there are plans that are very popular, but rejected by one radical side or another. Left wing Governor Cuomo, and Far Left Wing Mayor Deblasio pushed hard for the Amazon deal for NYC, but AOC et. al. really pushed to kill it even though the majority of her constituents (ever people of colour) wanted it. Amazons investment in NYC, while controversial, was quite popular - but killed by more radical voices. Popular political systems tend to promote and highlight the more extreme views, this is amplified in the press with arguing talking heads. AOC, Donald Trump get huge attention for the loud, bombastic, contrarian positions they take. In politics 'attention' is everything, that's their currency. They are not incented to 'govern well' they are incented to 'get >50% of the votes' which they do so by making a lot of noise, and spinning everything their opponents do against them. It takes a lot of maturity, a lot of credibility in systems to get away from that. Go ahead and have a look at the politics of Germany, they have some English language sites. They have some actual Nazis over there, and yet, somehow, the news and debate is still deftly boring. It's really amazing. Angela Merkel, possibly my favorite politician, has to be the most 'opposite' to Donald Trump imaginable. Coalition governments have a lot to do with that as well.
tekknik 6y ago
> If one big problem facing U.S. politics right now is that everything is distilled down to a binary either-or with no room for nuance, its sibling problem is assuming that everyone on the "other side" from you is the same, i.e. that the crazy extremist you see on TV is a prototypical example of everyone in that group. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. This is why I’m an independent. The quicker people realize the solution isn’t blue or red, but instead in the middle, the quicker we can actually resolve issues.
- sagarm 6y ago
  I resisted associating with a party for a long time, but Trump changed that. I was legitimately afraid for my family, who were at the time green card holders from a Muslim-majority country. Trump tried to cancel green cards, along with other visas, without any warning a week after his inauguration. People who had lived, worked, paid taxes in the United States for years and followed every legal process were nonetheless stranded away from their homes and families. That was really the point of no return. Trump supporters are the enemy; no reconciliation is possible.
  - tekknik 6y ago
    They are the enemy because they are trying to protect jobs at home? Which country do you come from? How difficult is it for a US citizen to become a full citizen? Is it as easy as what you’re asking for here? Do you think that by having a green card you are taking a job from someone here? I’m sorry but the idea that a political opponent is an “enemy” is just childish. If your country is trying to kill you then apply for political asylum, otherwise realize a great majority of people here think you have side channeled your way into this country.
    - sagarm 6y ago
      I am and was a US citizen. All US citizens are full citizens; we don't have second class citizens here. There is a legitimate way to debate immigration policy. It's the intentional infliction of cruelty and dehumanization that makes this situation irreconcilable, not any desire to change policy.

harimau777 6y ago

That's what I used to believe, but these aren't people I see on TV, these are people I actually spoke to. When they ignored the facts I asked them what facts would change their mind and was told point blank that there were no facts that would change their mind. I don't see how you can engage with that.

dbrueck 6y ago
Sure, I don't disagree with you on that point at all - but for every 1 of those there are 10 (100? 1000? more?) who aren't like that but who, given what was effectively a binary choice, voted the same way that they did. The die-hard (blind) fanatics on either end of the spectrum don't make a big enough group to win an election, but the assumption that they are representative of everyone in that group is incorrect and - maybe more important - counterproductive.
gootdude 6y ago
Indeed, how does one have a serious discussion with someone that refuses to acknowledge 2+2=4 because they "believe" the answer is 5.
centimeter 6y ago
Without knowing anything about you personally except the distribution of intelligence here on HN and the way you talk about how much smarter you are than these yokels, you are probably not smart enough to have an outsize economically valuable model of the world and your “facts” are probably low-value memes you picked up in school and on television.
- weakfish 6y ago
  Ah yes, admit you don't know someone and then draw a caricature of them and post the comment. This is a good faith argument!
  - centimeter 6y ago
    I was open about the fact that I don't know them - but you can tell a lot about them from their comment.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Bjartr 6y ago
You engage by not going in with the intent to change a person's mind. Instead, you go in with the intent to understand their position. Just because someone's conclusion seems ridiculous or wrong doesn't mean there aren't underlying facts that, when seen from a certain perspective, and with a certain context, make that conclusion seem reasonable. There are real, legitimate, reasons why Trump voters believe what they believe. That many get caught up in the rhetoric of their "side" or don't know how to have a discussion with a goal other than "win" doesn't mean they don't see real problems that are urgent and important problems that need to be fixed. Empathize first, argue second.
- akiselev 6y ago
  Their "facts" include gems like pedophilia rings run out of nonexistent basements below pizza shops, the Q-anon conspiracy (Trump's going to take down the evil cabal any day now!), and millions of illegal voters and criminals around every corner. Zero evidence for any of it. These aren't fringe views as many of us can attest to - this is crap millions have to listen to every day coming from their closest friends and family. Two decades ago the Republican party acted as a bulwark against rapid change and as the yin in the yin-yang of individual vs collective. Not no more; we don't have another two decades for our education system to bring us back from the brink.
  - semi-colon 6y ago
    This approach right here is why things are getting worse. Do you know Tylenol can cause horrible death where you have all your skin fall off and veins explode? Do you talk about this when you have take that simple medication? Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns.
    - akiselev 6y ago
      > Try to find common ground. See what you can work together on, see what you can agree upon, rather than point to the most stupid and extreme points of the other side and giving up completely or ignoring all their concerns. They're not even the most extreme, that's why there's no common ground! The most extreme would be the honest to goodness neo-nazis like the ones marching through Charleston a few years ago, several other flavors of white supremacists and "nationalists" like the NatCons and Bugaloo Boys, religious extremists like Pence, their crazier brother the dominionists like Bill Bar, and outright authoritarians (all of the above). I'm all for finding common ground, but I don't care for the liberals putting in the extra effort anymore, just to have bad faith actors take advantage of it. It's time for the conservatives to "find common ground" by getting their house in order. Get rid of the Nazis, get rid of the supremacists, get rid of the extremists, and undo all the damage that Barry Goldwater predicted the preachers would do.
Izkata 6y ago
Consider if they knew which facts would change their mind, their mind would already be changed. You have to get to know their values before you can figure out what would work.

harimau777 6y ago

I don't see how that can be the case when nearly 50 percent of the country still supported Trump despite Biden running on a centrism and reconciliation platform. If this matchup wasn't enough to get Republicans to cross the aisle then I'm not sure I believe that anything is.

abc-xyz 6y ago
It’s possible that many Republicans did cross the aisle, just like many Democrats (such as myself) did so as well.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >It’s possible that many Republicans did cross the aisle, just like many Democrats (such as myself) did so as well. It's possible. But the numbers don't bear this out. In every state that was close where Biden won, his margin of victory was less than the number of votes that Jo Jorgensen (the Libertarian candidate) received. That tells me that enough R-types were disgusted enough with Trump that they voted Libertarian for President and R for everyone else. Check out the numbers for yourself[0]. Just click on each state and it will break down the vote totals for each candidate. And in every. single. case. the margin of victory for Biden is less than the number of votes received by Jo Jorgensen. [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/2020-us-presidential-election-results-live-map https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/2020-us-presidential-electi...
  - syshum 6y ago
    Jo under performed Gary Johnson from 2016, so I do not believe your correlation is very valid In Some States, Like Nevada, the number of people that choose "NONE OF THESE CANDIDATES" for president more or less matches the number of people that voted for Jo... Further an over all Analysis shows there were almost as many Split Biden votes, as there were Split Trump Votes This idea that "3rd party spoils the election" or changes the election has been dis-proven often, as absent the 3rd choice most people that vote 3rd party simply do not vote at all, or choose no one in that particular race (which is an option most people for get, you do not have to pick a person in every race on a ballot, blank is a valid choice)

redisman 6y ago

Politics here stopped being about policy so now it's just a very unproductive culture war battlefield. Absolutely nothing will ever be achieved in that state. There are enough policies that both sides overwhelmingly support to keep this congress busy - marijuana legalization being the lowest hanging fruit from what I can see. Some kind of a federal minimum wage hike is another one.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago
I assume by "both sides" you mean both sides in the citizenry, not both sides in congress.

xnyan 6y ago

>Yes, there is a ton of common ground What's an example of some common ground you see, and very roughly how does it happen? For example, we all agree that X is bad, so we will pass a bill to do Y. Obviously, that example is hypothetical. Any common ground will not involve legislation as the explicitly stated and (very successfully practiced for 6 years) position of one party is a hard-stop on any legislative cooperation.

jariel 6y ago
This may be a surprise, but there is 'Common Ground' on almost all of the issues, even the most difficult, like abortion. 85% of Americans believe there is racism in America. If it were not political, reform in the prison system could absolutely be achieved. The vast majority of Americans would accept reforms to Healthcare if each law were not hugely politicized. For example, some Republican voters accept or reject literally the same policy when it's presented by different sides of the aisle. Americans would overwhelmingly accept some kind of Amnesty for children of migrants, and 'some kind' of program for others if - on the other side of the aisle - there were serious reforms and enhancements to ensure border integrity. Any attempt to offer amnesty would probably be weaponized by Republicans and Fox for political points. The majority of Americans believe that fetus/babies that are viable in the 3rd trimester (i.e. could be born premature) should not be up for abortion. But that 'the day of conception' isn't really tantamount to life. But the extremists won't allow for any common ground. Even on business tax, income tax - if you actually put numbers together, there are plans that are very popular, but rejected by one radical side or another. Left wing Governor Cuomo, and Far Left Wing Mayor Deblasio pushed hard for the Amazon deal for NYC, but AOC et. al. really pushed to kill it even though the majority of her constituents (ever people of colour) wanted it. Amazons investment in NYC, while controversial, was quite popular - but killed by more radical voices. Popular political systems tend to promote and highlight the more extreme views, this is amplified in the press with arguing talking heads. AOC, Donald Trump get huge attention for the loud, bombastic, contrarian positions they take. In politics 'attention' is everything, that's their currency. They are not incented to 'govern well' they are incented to 'get >50% of the votes' which they do so by making a lot of noise, and spinning everything their opponents do against them. It takes a lot of maturity, a lot of credibility in systems to get away from that. Go ahead and have a look at the politics of Germany, they have some English language sites. They have some actual Nazis over there, and yet, somehow, the news and debate is still deftly boring. It's really amazing. Angela Merkel, possibly my favorite politician, has to be the most 'opposite' to Donald Trump imaginable. Coalition governments have a lot to do with that as well.

tekknik 6y ago

> If one big problem facing U.S. politics right now is that everything is distilled down to a binary either-or with no room for nuance, its sibling problem is assuming that everyone on the "other side" from you is the same, i.e. that the crazy extremist you see on TV is a prototypical example of everyone in that group. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. This is why I’m an independent. The quicker people realize the solution isn’t blue or red, but instead in the middle, the quicker we can actually resolve issues.

sagarm 6y ago
I resisted associating with a party for a long time, but Trump changed that. I was legitimately afraid for my family, who were at the time green card holders from a Muslim-majority country. Trump tried to cancel green cards, along with other visas, without any warning a week after his inauguration. People who had lived, worked, paid taxes in the United States for years and followed every legal process were nonetheless stranded away from their homes and families. That was really the point of no return. Trump supporters are the enemy; no reconciliation is possible.
- tekknik 6y ago
  They are the enemy because they are trying to protect jobs at home? Which country do you come from? How difficult is it for a US citizen to become a full citizen? Is it as easy as what you’re asking for here? Do you think that by having a green card you are taking a job from someone here? I’m sorry but the idea that a political opponent is an “enemy” is just childish. If your country is trying to kill you then apply for political asylum, otherwise realize a great majority of people here think you have side channeled your way into this country.
  - sagarm 6y ago
    I am and was a US citizen. All US citizens are full citizens; we don't have second class citizens here. There is a legitimate way to debate immigration policy. It's the intentional infliction of cruelty and dehumanization that makes this situation irreconcilable, not any desire to change policy.