4 ms·

When considering a person of "awful character," a lot of people make the rational decision to nonetheless value the benefit of 320 million people as more import

by beaner 6y ago

When considering a person of "awful character," a lot of people make the rational decision to nonetheless value the benefit of 320 million people as more important than retribution against that one person, if that person's policies benefit the rest.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
But that's my point - a huge percentage of Trump supporters (not all, but probably a majority) don't support Trump for his policy positions. Indeed, there are large numbers of people who voted Republican in the past who love Trump despite the fact that Trump has done a complete 180 on policy items that used to be core Republican positions: support of free trade and being against protectionism and tariffs, support for foreign wars, containment of Russia, etc. Most support for Trump is at a deep, emotional level (to be fair, strong support for leadership usually is).
- beaner 6y ago
  There was certainly an "anyone but Hillary" contingent, but I think you'll find by actually talking to these people that the venn diagram overlap between that circle and the "actually likes Trump's policies" circle is about 99%. A lot of the points you mentioned are points that people who were not Left, have come to move past on the Right. The Right has changed. Trump does support free trade - if the US is not taken advantage of. Foreign wars are something everyone's tired of. Russia as a major threat is not something people take seriously, unless it's used to influence people against Trump. Etc. Many on the right would classify the points you mentioned as "neocon" or "neoliberal," something they've always been uncomfortable with and seen as an infection of the party and had to grudgingly accept without alternative, until Trump. Support for Trump is at a deep, emotional level for many. But certainly not in spite of his policy positions. If anything, his policy positions reinforce that emotion for most of his supporters. The people most in need of good policy, at the price of an acceptable nonchalance regarding a president's mere presentability - minorities - made their voices heard by voting for Trump. Every single minority demographic voted in higher numbers for Trump this election over last. The only demographic to vote for him less? White men. And that made the difference. The privileged have the benefit of being able to vote based on presentability. The rest of the population cannot afford to in the same way.
  - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    Thank you for your thoughtful response. > The people most in need of good policy, at the price of an acceptable nonchalance regarding a president's mere presentability - minorities - made their voices heard by voting for Trump. Every single minority demographic voted in higher numbers for Trump this election over last. The only demographic to vote for him less? White men. And that made the difference. Can you share your source for this? (this is not a challenge, I'm genuinely interested in digging deeper into the data myself)
    - beaner 6y ago
      This thread: https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1323975456668979200 https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1323975456668979200 Which pulls its insights from this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/exit-polls-president.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/... "The black male vote for trump increased from 13% in 2016 to 18% this year" "The black female vote for Trump doubled from 4% in 2016 to 8% this year" "Exit polls show a majority of white women voting for Trump. (Important note: Pew analysis of actual votes in 2016 showed that it wasn’t a majority but was a plurality.)" "The percentage of LGBT voting for Trump doubled from 2016" "The percentage of Latinos and Asians voting for Trump increased from 2016"
  - n4r9 6y ago
    I feel like you're glossing over the fact that minority groups still voted overwhelmingly against Trump, just slightly less overwhelmingly than before.
    - beaner 6y ago
      It is certainly something to recognize, that minorities generally held up that pattern. But the point I'm trying to make is about how peoples' minds changed after 4 years of experiencing an actual Trump presidency. Minorities moved towards him, and only white men moved away. That seems quite notable to me.
- gspetr 6y ago
  > core Republican positions: support of free trade and being against protectionism and tariffs This is not the case, as (or at least has not been since Reagan) there have been 2 main tools of regulating/restricting foreign imports by Republicans: Tariffs and Quotas. Both have different tradeoffs. Reagan was heavily in favor of quotas instead of tariffs: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/10/i-am-a-tariff-man-comparing-presidents-reagan-and-trump/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/10/i-am-a-tariff-man-com... Reagan CEA economist Steve Hanke added: “the share of American imports covered by some sort of trade restriction soared under ‘free-trader’ Reagan, moving from only 8 percent in 1975 to 21 percent by 1984.”

by beaner 6y ago

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago

But that's my point - a huge percentage of Trump supporters (not all, but probably a majority) don't support Trump for his policy positions. Indeed, there are large numbers of people who voted Republican in the past who love Trump despite the fact that Trump has done a complete 180 on policy items that used to be core Republican positions: support of free trade and being against protectionism and tariffs, support for foreign wars, containment of Russia, etc. Most support for Trump is at a deep, emotional level (to be fair, strong support for leadership usually is).

beaner 6y ago
There was certainly an "anyone but Hillary" contingent, but I think you'll find by actually talking to these people that the venn diagram overlap between that circle and the "actually likes Trump's policies" circle is about 99%. A lot of the points you mentioned are points that people who were not Left, have come to move past on the Right. The Right has changed. Trump does support free trade - if the US is not taken advantage of. Foreign wars are something everyone's tired of. Russia as a major threat is not something people take seriously, unless it's used to influence people against Trump. Etc. Many on the right would classify the points you mentioned as "neocon" or "neoliberal," something they've always been uncomfortable with and seen as an infection of the party and had to grudgingly accept without alternative, until Trump. Support for Trump is at a deep, emotional level for many. But certainly not in spite of his policy positions. If anything, his policy positions reinforce that emotion for most of his supporters. The people most in need of good policy, at the price of an acceptable nonchalance regarding a president's mere presentability - minorities - made their voices heard by voting for Trump. Every single minority demographic voted in higher numbers for Trump this election over last. The only demographic to vote for him less? White men. And that made the difference. The privileged have the benefit of being able to vote based on presentability. The rest of the population cannot afford to in the same way.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  Thank you for your thoughtful response. > The people most in need of good policy, at the price of an acceptable nonchalance regarding a president's mere presentability - minorities - made their voices heard by voting for Trump. Every single minority demographic voted in higher numbers for Trump this election over last. The only demographic to vote for him less? White men. And that made the difference. Can you share your source for this? (this is not a challenge, I'm genuinely interested in digging deeper into the data myself)
  - beaner 6y ago
    This thread: https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1323975456668979200 https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1323975456668979200 Which pulls its insights from this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/exit-polls-president.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/... "The black male vote for trump increased from 13% in 2016 to 18% this year" "The black female vote for Trump doubled from 4% in 2016 to 8% this year" "Exit polls show a majority of white women voting for Trump. (Important note: Pew analysis of actual votes in 2016 showed that it wasn’t a majority but was a plurality.)" "The percentage of LGBT voting for Trump doubled from 2016" "The percentage of Latinos and Asians voting for Trump increased from 2016"
- n4r9 6y ago
  I feel like you're glossing over the fact that minority groups still voted overwhelmingly against Trump, just slightly less overwhelmingly than before.
  - beaner 6y ago
    It is certainly something to recognize, that minorities generally held up that pattern. But the point I'm trying to make is about how peoples' minds changed after 4 years of experiencing an actual Trump presidency. Minorities moved towards him, and only white men moved away. That seems quite notable to me.
gspetr 6y ago
> core Republican positions: support of free trade and being against protectionism and tariffs This is not the case, as (or at least has not been since Reagan) there have been 2 main tools of regulating/restricting foreign imports by Republicans: Tariffs and Quotas. Both have different tradeoffs. Reagan was heavily in favor of quotas instead of tariffs: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/10/i-am-a-tariff-man-comparing-presidents-reagan-and-trump/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/10/i-am-a-tariff-man-com... Reagan CEA economist Steve Hanke added: “the share of American imports covered by some sort of trade restriction soared under ‘free-trader’ Reagan, moving from only 8 percent in 1975 to 21 percent by 1984.”