5 ms·

when you say "Amoral" some facts backing it up would be appreciated for the sake of the debate.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
I honestly don't believe this is a serious question, and anyone paying any attention over the last 4 years couldn't believe it is a serious question either. But to humor you, here is a good summary from Olivia Troye, former Republican member of the White House Covid task force and aid to Pence: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/olivia-troye-white-house-coronavirus-task-force-pence.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/olivia-troye-whi... Basically, Trump's only concern about Covid was how it would affect his re-election chances. And this isn't just some "disgruntled staffer". Basically everything she says backs up Trump's own public pronouncements of only seeing Covid as some politically motivated attack, instead of one of the most serious threats facing our nation in decades. Trump has been extremely transparent that he only views events as how they will help or hurt him. That's a very fair definition of amoral to me.
- FpUser 6y ago
  >"...Trump has been extremely transparent that he only views events as how they will help or hurt him" I'd say that this is the default behavior of majority of the population. Politicians do it probably even more. They just do not admit it.
  - tonitosou 6y ago
    that is the scary thing that debate is not allowed. biden voted laws that he is now opposed how is it not viewing event as how it will help or hurt him?
    - Daishiman 6y ago
      People change, and politicians are still beholden to their public. Where's the contradiction in that?
      - tonitosou 6y ago
        same for fracking right he changed his mind in a few month, same for black people that his laws and kamala harris jailed for small possession while she was joking on radio that of course she was smoking weed because she was jamaican. the contradiction is that you give a pass for some people but not for donald trump only by pure political opinion.
        Daishiman 6y ago
        Yeah... because Biden and Harris are retracting on bad policy, while, _at best_ Trump became an outgoing racist out of political convenience.
  - ytwySXpMbS 6y ago
    This is the viewpoint that confuses me, depending on what you mean by “default” behaviour. Do you think the everyday altruism displayed by people are exceptions? Or do you believe those people aren’t actually being nice to you/others and have ulterior motives? Such a viewpoint must make the world look like a very sad place indeed. You may argue that altruism is actually in self-interest, by making you feel good, but that’s circular logic[1]. [1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism#Circularity
    - FpUser 6y ago
      >"Do you think the everyday altruism displayed by people are exceptions" Not exceptions but ratio of altruistic vs self-centric actions would be I think less than 1%. That is based on my life time experience. Maybe somebody else has better one. As for the world being a sad place: well it is. The amount of people in need is staggering.
  - dragonsky 6y ago
    The point of politicians and especially leaders is that they are supposed to represent a group of people, and represent their best interests, not their own. If you just want to boost your own interests, then go into business and leave public service to those who are better suited to it.
- tomp 6y ago
  > Trump's only concern about Covid was This is fake news. Trump was one of the first Western leaders that reacted to COVID, closing the borders to China back in February. He was relentlessly mocked as a result, accused of being racist. Edit: looks like some people disagree with facts. https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/trumps-snowballing-china-travel-claim/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/trumps-snowballing-china-t... > On Jan. 31, the Trump administration declared a public health emergency for the novel coronavirus and announced travel restrictions to and from China, effective Feb. 2.
  - amykyta 6y ago
    Your own reference proves it’s anything but fake news. That link states right off the bat that banning travel was virtually useless. He’s on record with Bob Woodward talking about how he knew the virus is serious but he wanted to avoid ‘panic’. If Trump spent a fraction of the energy he’s devoting to without any proof undermining our voting he would have been re-elected free and clear.
    - tomp 6y ago
      The often-repeated claim was that he didn’t do anything, that he ignored or downplayed it. That isn’t true. Its true that the problem was virtually unsolvable regardless of policy for pretty much every Western country (except a few small / sparsely populated islands), the virus started spreading way before it was detected, but that’s hindsight.
      - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
        > or downplayed it. That isn’t true. Donald Trump is literally on tape with Bob Woodward saying he deliberately downplayed it.
GuardianCaveman 6y ago
Slowing down the testing. Children in cages. Family separation.
- tonitosou 6y ago
  that is very factual indeed. children in cages and family separation are not a trump policy but an american policy and obama and previous president did it too. that leaves us with covid testing. On June 21st, White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McAnany was asked to verify if Trump had ordered testing to be slowed down. She responded, “No, he has not directed that. Any suggestion that testing has been curtailed is not rooted in fact.” She added, “The president was trying to expose what the media often times does, they ignore the fact that the US has more cases because we have more testing.” She added, “It’s a fact the media readily ignores.” When asked to clarify that the comment Trump made about slowing down testing wasn’t true, McEnany responded, “It was a comment that he made in jest, a comment he made in passing, specifically with regard to the media coverage...when you test more people, you find more cases.” so not a fact. see. im probably gonna be downvoted for this because people are not factual and just hate the guy and while there are reasons to hate him they need to be concrete and real
  - camel_Snake 6y ago
    "children in cages" is just reductive way of saying 'a policy of forced family separation'. It's seems pretty apparent that cruelty is a key part of Trump's immigration policy when you have his lawyers arguing in court that soap and toothpaste aren't requisite for sanitary conditions.
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    > family separation are not a trump policy Yes, In the last 4 years while Trump was in charge it was. He had enough time and political resources and green light at senate. Could have stopped it at any time. He didn't.
  - datway 6y ago
    Obama did not separate asylum seeking families as policy. Child migrants who came here alone were processed like other migrants. Separating small children from their families is, in my opinion, a moral abomination. The justification for this policy was to deter migration by punishing them and their children. It's wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_se...
colinmhayes 6y ago
Everyone knows you're here in bad faith. Try harder.
- tonitosou 6y ago
  actually im here rooting for the idea that one should judge every man same. which is clearly not what is happening in america seeing how we give up discussing any sensitive topics about biden and harris more than despicable past on how they treated minorities vs donald trump. why do you think donald trump got more minorities votes this year than in 2016?
  - colinmhayes 6y ago
    I'm sorry I didn't realize Biden and Harris took out full page ads calling for the death of innocent black men and still to this day refuse to apologize.
    - tonitosou 6y ago
      i dont think donald trump did that. he called for the death of people that were seen as guilty by pretty much everyone thanks to the same media craze than the one he was victim of and that is actually backing up my point that people are not rational and don't allow to debate once emotions are turned by the media. race didn't really play something to donald trump in particular they could have been white he would have said the same thing (and i am not saying the media would have treated them same). but the people in jail for posession of weed that kamala arrested actually paid a price of several years of their lives.
pvaldes 6y ago
> when you say "Amoral" some facts backing it up would be appreciated It depends on the definition of amoral that each one has For many people, dating porn stars while married would be a good definition... but some adults have open marriages, that's true. Most people in the planet would say that snatching babies from their parents (and basically laughing about it) is definitely amoral. Double bonus if you do it while accusing other to conspire to kidnap children without showing any proof of that. And telling citizens for months to go out unprotected in the middle of a potentially lethal disease, when you are fully aware of the danger and after more than 200.000 people died for this disease, is not much better.

I honestly don't believe this is a serious question, and anyone paying any attention over the last 4 years couldn't believe it is a serious question either. But to humor you, here is a good summary from Olivia Troye, former Republican member of the White House Covid task force and aid to Pence: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/olivia-troye-white-house-coronavirus-task-force-pence.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/olivia-troye-whi... Basically, Trump's only concern about Covid was how it would affect his re-election chances. And this isn't just some "disgruntled staffer". Basically everything she says backs up Trump's own public pronouncements of only seeing Covid as some politically motivated attack, instead of one of the most serious threats facing our nation in decades. Trump has been extremely transparent that he only views events as how they will help or hurt him. That's a very fair definition of amoral to me.

FpUser 6y ago
>"...Trump has been extremely transparent that he only views events as how they will help or hurt him" I'd say that this is the default behavior of majority of the population. Politicians do it probably even more. They just do not admit it.
- tonitosou 6y ago
  that is the scary thing that debate is not allowed. biden voted laws that he is now opposed how is it not viewing event as how it will help or hurt him?
  - Daishiman 6y ago
    People change, and politicians are still beholden to their public. Where's the contradiction in that?
    - tonitosou 6y ago
      same for fracking right he changed his mind in a few month, same for black people that his laws and kamala harris jailed for small possession while she was joking on radio that of course she was smoking weed because she was jamaican. the contradiction is that you give a pass for some people but not for donald trump only by pure political opinion.
      - Daishiman 6y ago
        Yeah... because Biden and Harris are retracting on bad policy, while, _at best_ Trump became an outgoing racist out of political convenience.
- ytwySXpMbS 6y ago
  This is the viewpoint that confuses me, depending on what you mean by “default” behaviour. Do you think the everyday altruism displayed by people are exceptions? Or do you believe those people aren’t actually being nice to you/others and have ulterior motives? Such a viewpoint must make the world look like a very sad place indeed. You may argue that altruism is actually in self-interest, by making you feel good, but that’s circular logic[1]. [1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism#Circularity
  - FpUser 6y ago
    >"Do you think the everyday altruism displayed by people are exceptions" Not exceptions but ratio of altruistic vs self-centric actions would be I think less than 1%. That is based on my life time experience. Maybe somebody else has better one. As for the world being a sad place: well it is. The amount of people in need is staggering.
- dragonsky 6y ago
  The point of politicians and especially leaders is that they are supposed to represent a group of people, and represent their best interests, not their own. If you just want to boost your own interests, then go into business and leave public service to those who are better suited to it.
tomp 6y ago
> Trump's only concern about Covid was This is fake news. Trump was one of the first Western leaders that reacted to COVID, closing the borders to China back in February. He was relentlessly mocked as a result, accused of being racist. Edit: looks like some people disagree with facts. https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/trumps-snowballing-china-travel-claim/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/trumps-snowballing-china-t... > On Jan. 31, the Trump administration declared a public health emergency for the novel coronavirus and announced travel restrictions to and from China, effective Feb. 2.
- amykyta 6y ago
  Your own reference proves it’s anything but fake news. That link states right off the bat that banning travel was virtually useless. He’s on record with Bob Woodward talking about how he knew the virus is serious but he wanted to avoid ‘panic’. If Trump spent a fraction of the energy he’s devoting to without any proof undermining our voting he would have been re-elected free and clear.
  - tomp 6y ago
    The often-repeated claim was that he didn’t do anything, that he ignored or downplayed it. That isn’t true. Its true that the problem was virtually unsolvable regardless of policy for pretty much every Western country (except a few small / sparsely populated islands), the virus started spreading way before it was detected, but that’s hindsight.
    - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
      > or downplayed it. That isn’t true. Donald Trump is literally on tape with Bob Woodward saying he deliberately downplayed it.

GuardianCaveman 6y ago

Slowing down the testing. Children in cages. Family separation.

tonitosou 6y ago
that is very factual indeed. children in cages and family separation are not a trump policy but an american policy and obama and previous president did it too. that leaves us with covid testing. On June 21st, White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McAnany was asked to verify if Trump had ordered testing to be slowed down. She responded, “No, he has not directed that. Any suggestion that testing has been curtailed is not rooted in fact.” She added, “The president was trying to expose what the media often times does, they ignore the fact that the US has more cases because we have more testing.” She added, “It’s a fact the media readily ignores.” When asked to clarify that the comment Trump made about slowing down testing wasn’t true, McEnany responded, “It was a comment that he made in jest, a comment he made in passing, specifically with regard to the media coverage...when you test more people, you find more cases.” so not a fact. see. im probably gonna be downvoted for this because people are not factual and just hate the guy and while there are reasons to hate him they need to be concrete and real
- camel_Snake 6y ago
  "children in cages" is just reductive way of saying 'a policy of forced family separation'. It's seems pretty apparent that cruelty is a key part of Trump's immigration policy when you have his lawyers arguing in court that soap and toothpaste aren't requisite for sanitary conditions.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  > family separation are not a trump policy Yes, In the last 4 years while Trump was in charge it was. He had enough time and political resources and green light at senate. Could have stopped it at any time. He didn't.
- datway 6y ago
  Obama did not separate asylum seeking families as policy. Child migrants who came here alone were processed like other migrants. Separating small children from their families is, in my opinion, a moral abomination. The justification for this policy was to deter migration by punishing them and their children. It's wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_se...

colinmhayes 6y ago

Everyone knows you're here in bad faith. Try harder.

tonitosou 6y ago
actually im here rooting for the idea that one should judge every man same. which is clearly not what is happening in america seeing how we give up discussing any sensitive topics about biden and harris more than despicable past on how they treated minorities vs donald trump. why do you think donald trump got more minorities votes this year than in 2016?
- colinmhayes 6y ago
  I'm sorry I didn't realize Biden and Harris took out full page ads calling for the death of innocent black men and still to this day refuse to apologize.
  - tonitosou 6y ago
    i dont think donald trump did that. he called for the death of people that were seen as guilty by pretty much everyone thanks to the same media craze than the one he was victim of and that is actually backing up my point that people are not rational and don't allow to debate once emotions are turned by the media. race didn't really play something to donald trump in particular they could have been white he would have said the same thing (and i am not saying the media would have treated them same). but the people in jail for posession of weed that kamala arrested actually paid a price of several years of their lives.

pvaldes 6y ago

> when you say "Amoral" some facts backing it up would be appreciated It depends on the definition of amoral that each one has For many people, dating porn stars while married would be a good definition... but some adults have open marriages, that's true. Most people in the planet would say that snatching babies from their parents (and basically laughing about it) is definitely amoral. Double bonus if you do it while accusing other to conspire to kidnap children without showing any proof of that. And telling citizens for months to go out unprotected in the middle of a potentially lethal disease, when you are fully aware of the danger and after more than 200.000 people died for this disease, is not much better.