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Is the problem really listening? The conservatives of america are ignoring facts and making up their own reality. They ignore science and reason. What can you

by tayo42 6y ago

Is the problem really listening? The conservatives of america are ignoring facts and making up their own reality. They ignore science and reason. What can you listen to? You can't have a reasonable debate when one side if just making things up. Abortion is science, climate change is science, race and gender differences are proven facts. Edit:instead of downvoting me explain what's wrong? Wtf. So much for listening...

markus_zhang 6y ago
I think Trump appeals to some of the middles too. E.g. the "losers" of globalization. They are definitely not (all) radical right. The thing is, Trump is just a symptom of some disease which the country has been suffering for many years. I'd say it's a mix of a lot of things, e.g. the decline of scientific education + decline of the middle class + a lot of other things.
- shrimp_emoji 6y ago
  Reagan and the republicans have hollowed out public education, and that's what the closeness of the race is a symptom of, I think. We need to funnel money back into public education; the next generation is our only hope.
- tayo42 6y ago
  What do you do then? It's not listening or at least not a conversation if you need to educate someone one. Explain why they're not actually losers how they are in fact benefiting.
  - csnover 6y ago
    I don’t have a good answer, but I do have an idea. The next time you face this situation, instead of jumping to give information that you would need to know in order for you to believe what you are saying, ask the other person instead: “What would need to be true in order for you to believe X?” While I’ve often found that people can’t handle this question and just disengage, if you do get an answer, then you can actually try to say what they need to hear. They may move the goalposts after getting an answer, but it’s better than wasting time throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.
- odessacubbage 6y ago
  al gore is the worst thing that ever happened to environmentalism.
_iyig 6y ago
> race and gender differences are proven facts This sounds like a much more conservative opinion than perhaps you intended.
- tayo42 6y ago
  Ouch whoops, yeah I mean differences like wage gap, effects of racism after generations
  - _iyig 6y ago
    Scientifically, you were also right the first time.
    - tayo42 6y ago
      I guess technically...
  - Izkata 6y ago
    > yeah I mean differences like wage gap ...has actually been disproven more than it's been proven. Or rather, proven to be caused by things other than discrimination, as "wage gap" is meant to imply.
wolfhumble 6y ago
> Abortion is science No, to me it is ethics! Edit, added: Killing an innocent child does not have anything to do with science.
- scsilver 6y ago
  I dont see the point of hoisting the rights of the unborn and the undead over those unfortunate enough to be living through 2020.
- tayo42 6y ago
  Ethics has nothing to do with defining what life is or what human is.
  - combatentropy 6y ago
    And a fetus is a human life. A person does not get redefined based on their location. What science is there that defends the right to an abortion?
    - tayo42 6y ago
      Why do you feel a fetus is a human life? What does location have to do with it? A fetus isn't viable until week 20ish. Even then it won't survive outside the mothers body. 1% of abortions happen after week 20. About 90% of abortions happen before week 13. It's not even a fetus at this point. The body it self might abort still at this point, this is when mis carriages happen. Why do you feel an unviable collection of cells is a human?
      - combatentropy 6y ago
        > Why do you feel a fetus is a human life? Because it is human, and it is alive. It is human, in the sense that it is descended from humans and is not dog or a dandelion or a caterpillar. It has human genetic code. It is one continuous line from the merge of two human sex cells to full-grown human. There is no jump, somewhere along the way, from not human to human. It is alive. A plant is alive, so surely so is a fetus. > A fetus isn't viable until week 20ish. Whether it is viable doesn't determine whether it is human or alive. A two-year-old outside the womb isn't very viable either. In fact, some 20-year-olds aren't very viable. Viability is shaky ground upon which to base legal protection. Just think of the handicapped or those with other chronic maladies. Or any of us can become unviable temporarily through some accident or acute illness. Does our right to life disappear? > Why do you feel an unviable collection of cells is a human A "collection of cells" does not describe a fetus any better than an adult. - At about 18 days, there is a heartbeat - At about 40 days, there is brain activity - By the end of the first trimester, it has all its organs. It just needs to grow. "Photography of the human fetus developing in the womb": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD1gW88Lm-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD1gW88Lm-Y > What does location have to do with it? Inside the womb or outside the womb, its location seems to be the dimension used by those who say abortion is okay.
ahnooie 6y ago
How reliable is the science you are referencing? 50 years ago "Science" predicted an ice age. Recently it's Climate Change. 50 years from now Science will predict we're all doomed from something else. I am not against Science, but a lot of things that pass as Science isn't Science at all. In fact, some of what passes as Science seems more like a Religion. There is only one race, the human race. There are differences between ethnic groups, but we are all created in God's image because we're all descended from Adam. I don't know anyone who seriously thinks there are no differences with gender? Except maybe some gender confused professors at my University, but that aside does anyone who is sane really think they are the same? Man and Woman, while having physical deferences, different roles, and responisbilities, are nonethless equal before God. I don't know what you mean by Abortion is science, but I do know that it is wrong because it's killing an innocent human being.
- tayo42 6y ago
  Science is iterative, there's a process to it. It's unreasonable to expect to be perfectly right the first time. But that is still a better effort then any one else is trying. There is logic and visible proof of climate change happening and effecting our world. I explained my poor wording somewhere else in this thread. Why do you feel an unviable collection of cells is a human life? It has no thought, that is what makes us human. At that point its a collection of cells leaching off the mother
  - ahnooie 6y ago
    So I'm saying we shouldn't fully trust in the areas of science that are likely to be wrong, especially those affected by finding, bias or groupthink. Climate change is one of those areas. The climate has been changing since the Creation of the world. God has promised that He will give us seasons and the ability to plant and reap for as long as the earth remains. (Genesis 8:22). That doesn't mean the climate won't change, maybe it will be bad for some parts of the world and good for others. But I do know we have God's promise for seasons and He has kept that promise every year for over 4300 years. He's not going to break His promise. I'm also not saying we shouldn't be good stewards of earth. We need to rule over it and take care of it. But we don't need to be worried about this planet becoming uninhabitable because of climate change, man made or natural. Humananity is not defined by the ability to think. Even before the first thought the human embryo is not just a collection of cells. It's a distinct organism. It is dependent on the mother but those cells are independent in the sense that it directs itself on how to form. If you could remove an embryo from the womb and give it a good environment and nutrients it would form just the same. The unborn baby isn't slowly assembled out of parts to make a whole, the embryo is already functioning, it's a distinct human life. It is already human. If you define humanity by thought would you say a 3 year old is less human than a 10 year because their thoughts are less complex? What about when you're sleeping, are you less human when you're unconscious? Humanity is also not defined by it's viability. Is a wounded soldier who will die without life support all of a sudden less human or less valuable because his life depends on an outside source? The embryo is a distinct human being that can direct it's own formation. It is separate from the mother's cells. And that is why it is a human life.

by tayo42 6y ago

markus_zhang 6y ago

I think Trump appeals to some of the middles too. E.g. the "losers" of globalization. They are definitely not (all) radical right. The thing is, Trump is just a symptom of some disease which the country has been suffering for many years. I'd say it's a mix of a lot of things, e.g. the decline of scientific education + decline of the middle class + a lot of other things.

shrimp_emoji 6y ago
Reagan and the republicans have hollowed out public education, and that's what the closeness of the race is a symptom of, I think. We need to funnel money back into public education; the next generation is our only hope.
tayo42 6y ago
What do you do then? It's not listening or at least not a conversation if you need to educate someone one. Explain why they're not actually losers how they are in fact benefiting.
- csnover 6y ago
  I don’t have a good answer, but I do have an idea. The next time you face this situation, instead of jumping to give information that you would need to know in order for you to believe what you are saying, ask the other person instead: “What would need to be true in order for you to believe X?” While I’ve often found that people can’t handle this question and just disengage, if you do get an answer, then you can actually try to say what they need to hear. They may move the goalposts after getting an answer, but it’s better than wasting time throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.
odessacubbage 6y ago
al gore is the worst thing that ever happened to environmentalism.

_iyig 6y ago

> race and gender differences are proven facts This sounds like a much more conservative opinion than perhaps you intended.

tayo42 6y ago
Ouch whoops, yeah I mean differences like wage gap, effects of racism after generations
- _iyig 6y ago
  Scientifically, you were also right the first time.
  - tayo42 6y ago
    I guess technically...
- Izkata 6y ago
  > yeah I mean differences like wage gap ...has actually been disproven more than it's been proven. Or rather, proven to be caused by things other than discrimination, as "wage gap" is meant to imply.

wolfhumble 6y ago

> Abortion is science No, to me it is ethics! Edit, added: Killing an innocent child does not have anything to do with science.

scsilver 6y ago
I dont see the point of hoisting the rights of the unborn and the undead over those unfortunate enough to be living through 2020.
tayo42 6y ago
Ethics has nothing to do with defining what life is or what human is.
- combatentropy 6y ago
  And a fetus is a human life. A person does not get redefined based on their location. What science is there that defends the right to an abortion?
  - tayo42 6y ago
    Why do you feel a fetus is a human life? What does location have to do with it? A fetus isn't viable until week 20ish. Even then it won't survive outside the mothers body. 1% of abortions happen after week 20. About 90% of abortions happen before week 13. It's not even a fetus at this point. The body it self might abort still at this point, this is when mis carriages happen. Why do you feel an unviable collection of cells is a human?
    - combatentropy 6y ago
      > Why do you feel a fetus is a human life? Because it is human, and it is alive. It is human, in the sense that it is descended from humans and is not dog or a dandelion or a caterpillar. It has human genetic code. It is one continuous line from the merge of two human sex cells to full-grown human. There is no jump, somewhere along the way, from not human to human. It is alive. A plant is alive, so surely so is a fetus. > A fetus isn't viable until week 20ish. Whether it is viable doesn't determine whether it is human or alive. A two-year-old outside the womb isn't very viable either. In fact, some 20-year-olds aren't very viable. Viability is shaky ground upon which to base legal protection. Just think of the handicapped or those with other chronic maladies. Or any of us can become unviable temporarily through some accident or acute illness. Does our right to life disappear? > Why do you feel an unviable collection of cells is a human A "collection of cells" does not describe a fetus any better than an adult. - At about 18 days, there is a heartbeat - At about 40 days, there is brain activity - By the end of the first trimester, it has all its organs. It just needs to grow. "Photography of the human fetus developing in the womb": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD1gW88Lm-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD1gW88Lm-Y > What does location have to do with it? Inside the womb or outside the womb, its location seems to be the dimension used by those who say abortion is okay.

ahnooie 6y ago

How reliable is the science you are referencing? 50 years ago "Science" predicted an ice age. Recently it's Climate Change. 50 years from now Science will predict we're all doomed from something else. I am not against Science, but a lot of things that pass as Science isn't Science at all. In fact, some of what passes as Science seems more like a Religion. There is only one race, the human race. There are differences between ethnic groups, but we are all created in God's image because we're all descended from Adam. I don't know anyone who seriously thinks there are no differences with gender? Except maybe some gender confused professors at my University, but that aside does anyone who is sane really think they are the same? Man and Woman, while having physical deferences, different roles, and responisbilities, are nonethless equal before God. I don't know what you mean by Abortion is science, but I do know that it is wrong because it's killing an innocent human being.

tayo42 6y ago
Science is iterative, there's a process to it. It's unreasonable to expect to be perfectly right the first time. But that is still a better effort then any one else is trying. There is logic and visible proof of climate change happening and effecting our world. I explained my poor wording somewhere else in this thread. Why do you feel an unviable collection of cells is a human life? It has no thought, that is what makes us human. At that point its a collection of cells leaching off the mother
- ahnooie 6y ago
  So I'm saying we shouldn't fully trust in the areas of science that are likely to be wrong, especially those affected by finding, bias or groupthink. Climate change is one of those areas. The climate has been changing since the Creation of the world. God has promised that He will give us seasons and the ability to plant and reap for as long as the earth remains. (Genesis 8:22). That doesn't mean the climate won't change, maybe it will be bad for some parts of the world and good for others. But I do know we have God's promise for seasons and He has kept that promise every year for over 4300 years. He's not going to break His promise. I'm also not saying we shouldn't be good stewards of earth. We need to rule over it and take care of it. But we don't need to be worried about this planet becoming uninhabitable because of climate change, man made or natural. Humananity is not defined by the ability to think. Even before the first thought the human embryo is not just a collection of cells. It's a distinct organism. It is dependent on the mother but those cells are independent in the sense that it directs itself on how to form. If you could remove an embryo from the womb and give it a good environment and nutrients it would form just the same. The unborn baby isn't slowly assembled out of parts to make a whole, the embryo is already functioning, it's a distinct human life. It is already human. If you define humanity by thought would you say a 3 year old is less human than a 10 year because their thoughts are less complex? What about when you're sleeping, are you less human when you're unconscious? Humanity is also not defined by it's viability. Is a wounded soldier who will die without life support all of a sudden less human or less valuable because his life depends on an outside source? The embryo is a distinct human being that can direct it's own formation. It is separate from the mother's cells. And that is why it is a human life.