6 ms·

I really detest the conservative vs. liberal duality. Conservatism is not comparable to liberalism. They are not alternatives. It just means a desire to mainta

I really detest the conservative vs. liberal duality. Conservatism is not comparable to liberalism. They are not alternatives. It just means a desire to maintain the status quo. The opposite of conservatism is progressivism, not liberalism. In fact most Republicans in the US are liberal-democrats.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
I mean, I don't disagree with you, but I feel you are missing my primary point, which is that I have no problem with people that have a strong preference for current Republican policy positions (or, on the flip side, Democratic). My problem is that Trump is just a man of such awful character that it hurts to see how many supported him, regardless of policy preferences. I have never felt this way about any previous president, Republican or Democrat.
- beaner 6y ago
  When considering a person of "awful character," a lot of people make the rational decision to nonetheless value the benefit of 320 million people as more important than retribution against that one person, if that person's policies benefit the rest.
  - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    But that's my point - a huge percentage of Trump supporters (not all, but probably a majority) don't support Trump for his policy positions. Indeed, there are large numbers of people who voted Republican in the past who love Trump despite the fact that Trump has done a complete 180 on policy items that used to be core Republican positions: support of free trade and being against protectionism and tariffs, support for foreign wars, containment of Russia, etc. Most support for Trump is at a deep, emotional level (to be fair, strong support for leadership usually is).
    - beaner 6y ago
      There was certainly an "anyone but Hillary" contingent, but I think you'll find by actually talking to these people that the venn diagram overlap between that circle and the "actually likes Trump's policies" circle is about 99%. A lot of the points you mentioned are points that people who were not Left, have come to move past on the Right. The Right has changed. Trump does support free trade - if the US is not taken advantage of. Foreign wars are something everyone's tired of. Russia as a major threat is not something people take seriously, unless it's used to influence people against Trump. Etc. Many on the right would classify the points you mentioned as "neocon" or "neoliberal," something they've always been uncomfortable with and seen as an infection of the party and had to grudgingly accept without alternative, until Trump. Support for Trump is at a deep, emotional level for many. But certainly not in spite of his policy positions. If anything, his policy positions reinforce that emotion for most of his supporters. The people most in need of good policy, at the price of an acceptable nonchalance regarding a president's mere presentability - minorities - made their voices heard by voting for Trump. Every single minority demographic voted in higher numbers for Trump this election over last. The only demographic to vote for him less? White men. And that made the difference. The privileged have the benefit of being able to vote based on presentability. The rest of the population cannot afford to in the same way.
      - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
        Thank you for your thoughtful response. > The people most in need of good policy, at the price of an acceptable nonchalance regarding a president's mere presentability - minorities - made their voices heard by voting for Trump. Every single minority demographic voted in higher numbers for Trump this election over last. The only demographic to vote for him less? White men. And that made the difference. Can you share your source for this? (this is not a challenge, I'm genuinely interested in digging deeper into the data myself)
        beaner 6y ago
        This thread: https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1323975456668979200 https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1323975456668979200 Which pulls its insights from this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/exit-polls-president.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/... "The black male vote for trump increased from 13% in 2016 to 18% this year" "The black female vote for Trump doubled from 4% in 2016 to 8% this year" "Exit polls show a majority of white women voting for Trump. (Important note: Pew analysis of actual votes in 2016 showed that it wasn’t a majority but was a plurality.)" "The percentage of LGBT voting for Trump doubled from 2016" "The percentage of Latinos and Asians voting for Trump increased from 2016"
- emmelaich 6y ago
  Perhaps it's often been that way in the USA (and elsewhere). The outsiders make the progress. Reading https://www.amazon.com/Renegade-History-United-States/dp/1416576134 https://www.amazon.com/Renegade-History-United-States/dp/141... "A Renegade History of the United States" by Thaddeus Russell
Karunamon 6y ago
Political designations are contextual, not universal. Liberals call themselves liberals and most people in the country understand what that means. Definitions used in other countries are irrelevant.
- CameronNemo 6y ago
  They are really not contextual. Americans need to understand each others perspectives if they hope to ever come together. Understanding the political philosophies of liberalism, democratism, socialism, fascism, and anarchism is important. Those philosophies don't change from one country to the next, even if they translate into different sets of policies.
  - Karunamon 6y ago
    If the "same" philosophy results in different policies when applied in different countries, that to me lends more credence to their contextuality.
    - CameronNemo 6y ago
      Different countries can have different challenges and circumstances facing them. The philosophy is framework to draft policies from, not a blueprint for how to run a community.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago

I mean, I don't disagree with you, but I feel you are missing my primary point, which is that I have no problem with people that have a strong preference for current Republican policy positions (or, on the flip side, Democratic). My problem is that Trump is just a man of such awful character that it hurts to see how many supported him, regardless of policy preferences. I have never felt this way about any previous president, Republican or Democrat.

beaner 6y ago
When considering a person of "awful character," a lot of people make the rational decision to nonetheless value the benefit of 320 million people as more important than retribution against that one person, if that person's policies benefit the rest.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  But that's my point - a huge percentage of Trump supporters (not all, but probably a majority) don't support Trump for his policy positions. Indeed, there are large numbers of people who voted Republican in the past who love Trump despite the fact that Trump has done a complete 180 on policy items that used to be core Republican positions: support of free trade and being against protectionism and tariffs, support for foreign wars, containment of Russia, etc. Most support for Trump is at a deep, emotional level (to be fair, strong support for leadership usually is).
  - beaner 6y ago
    There was certainly an "anyone but Hillary" contingent, but I think you'll find by actually talking to these people that the venn diagram overlap between that circle and the "actually likes Trump's policies" circle is about 99%. A lot of the points you mentioned are points that people who were not Left, have come to move past on the Right. The Right has changed. Trump does support free trade - if the US is not taken advantage of. Foreign wars are something everyone's tired of. Russia as a major threat is not something people take seriously, unless it's used to influence people against Trump. Etc. Many on the right would classify the points you mentioned as "neocon" or "neoliberal," something they've always been uncomfortable with and seen as an infection of the party and had to grudgingly accept without alternative, until Trump. Support for Trump is at a deep, emotional level for many. But certainly not in spite of his policy positions. If anything, his policy positions reinforce that emotion for most of his supporters. The people most in need of good policy, at the price of an acceptable nonchalance regarding a president's mere presentability - minorities - made their voices heard by voting for Trump. Every single minority demographic voted in higher numbers for Trump this election over last. The only demographic to vote for him less? White men. And that made the difference. The privileged have the benefit of being able to vote based on presentability. The rest of the population cannot afford to in the same way.
    - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
      Thank you for your thoughtful response. > The people most in need of good policy, at the price of an acceptable nonchalance regarding a president's mere presentability - minorities - made their voices heard by voting for Trump. Every single minority demographic voted in higher numbers for Trump this election over last. The only demographic to vote for him less? White men. And that made the difference. Can you share your source for this? (this is not a challenge, I'm genuinely interested in digging deeper into the data myself)
      - beaner 6y ago
        This thread: https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1323975456668979200 https://twitter.com/CharlesMBlow/status/1323975456668979200 Which pulls its insights from this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/exit-polls-president.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/... "The black male vote for trump increased from 13% in 2016 to 18% this year" "The black female vote for Trump doubled from 4% in 2016 to 8% this year" "Exit polls show a majority of white women voting for Trump. (Important note: Pew analysis of actual votes in 2016 showed that it wasn’t a majority but was a plurality.)" "The percentage of LGBT voting for Trump doubled from 2016" "The percentage of Latinos and Asians voting for Trump increased from 2016"
emmelaich 6y ago
Perhaps it's often been that way in the USA (and elsewhere). The outsiders make the progress. Reading https://www.amazon.com/Renegade-History-United-States/dp/1416576134 https://www.amazon.com/Renegade-History-United-States/dp/141... "A Renegade History of the United States" by Thaddeus Russell

Karunamon 6y ago

Political designations are contextual, not universal. Liberals call themselves liberals and most people in the country understand what that means. Definitions used in other countries are irrelevant.

CameronNemo 6y ago
They are really not contextual. Americans need to understand each others perspectives if they hope to ever come together. Understanding the political philosophies of liberalism, democratism, socialism, fascism, and anarchism is important. Those philosophies don't change from one country to the next, even if they translate into different sets of policies.
- Karunamon 6y ago
  If the "same" philosophy results in different policies when applied in different countries, that to me lends more credence to their contextuality.
  - CameronNemo 6y ago
    Different countries can have different challenges and circumstances facing them. The philosophy is framework to draft policies from, not a blueprint for how to run a community.