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We’ve trialled combinations of REST, GraphQL and gRPC-web across a bunch of different products. GraphQL has reliably won for us in trading off DX, UX and featur

We’ve trialled combinations of REST, GraphQL and gRPC-web across a bunch of different products. GraphQL has reliably won for us in trading off DX, UX and feature speed. Reasons - - Auto-generated, type safe entities from source to client, including relationships = fewer bugs - Ability to unify different backends (eg a database, warehouse, external APIs, cloud storage) - The “application data graph” concept always brings huge clarity to the architecture design - you get to build your mental model in code - GraphiQL is excellent Having said this, most of the benefits come from the incredible tooling, eg for our stack Graphene, Graphene-X bridges, Typescript, Apollo. I would never consider writing a GraphQL server from scratch, and we’ve had bad experiences with instant database -> GraphQL solutions (not really keen on writing my application logic in SQL). It’s also not an either or - our current app uses REST for file uploads and stream large datasets to the client. And ofc, you can achieve many of these benefits with other solutions. Wundergraph looks like a great addition to the ecosystem, it would already remove boilerplate from our app.

jensneuse 6y ago
Would love to get in touch and discuss this further!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
folmar 6y ago
Did you trial the ususal suspects for getting those features you list, eg. REST+WADL, SOAP+WSDL?
- foota 6y ago
  I don't think either of these are a usual suspect anymore. I hadn't even heard of these. Maybe these are more common in some parts of the industry.
  - tpxl 6y ago
    I haven't used WADL, but WSDL stands for Web Services Definition Language and is an amazing way to define endpoints and messages with type safety. From these you can generate bindings for pretty much any language or protocol that has a generator (and there are plenty, but probably not for the cool kids^TM 'golang' and 'rust'). One of the reasons it fell out of use is XML is verbose and typesafety is not cool anymore.
    - pault 6y ago
      > typesafety is not cool anymore This is rapidly reversing as the javascript ecosystem has increasingly adopted typescript in the last two years. I, for one, refuse to start a new front end without it, and the only other js dev I've spoken with recently who disagreed had never actually used typescript and didn't want to "write a bunch of interfaces like java".
      - ErikBjare 6y ago
        The same goes for Python, where typechecking with mypy is getting pretty popular.
    - folmar 6y ago
      There is a couple for go and at least one for rust, although I don't know how well it fares. It shines more with languages which allow first-class runtime reflection and code loading, but you only care if dealing with runtime-configured services. Also WSDL 2.0 supports REST. I would not say fell out of use, most enterprise-grade apis, old or new, will have one -- think bank/government/big corp. GraphQL is not there yet - as other commenters pointed out the tooling is not good enough outside JS world, security is complicated on the service side, and the protocol is just to young - the official release is two years ago, so it may start appearing just around now.
- davidkell 6y ago
  I’m not familiar with those solutions in particular. For type safety, many backend frameworks generate OpenAPI specs automatically, and you can generate Typescript stubs based on this. Ditto for gRPC and gRPC web. We use these. But I’ve not seen a replacement for the “application data graph” (but would be interested to learn about them!). The link from @jefflombardjr [0] explains it nicely - it is a great abstraction (in certain situations). Modelling your application data graph is like modelling a good database schema - when you get it right, the rest of the application follows naturally. It’s magical when it works, and I’d happily do it even if it’s just me working on the project. And GraphQL has a great ecosystem, that is the advantage over niche tools. Example - last week we added auto-generated GraphQL types and relationships for Postgres JSON fields, with the help of [1]. No more malformed JSON breaking our app. Note this is all in the context of a web app. Reading other comments, the tooling seems to be less developed on other platforms. And again, without decent tooling (especially for the server) I wouldn’t touch it. [0] https://medium.com/@JeffLombardJr/when-and-why-to-use-graphql-24f6bce4839d https://medium.com/@JeffLombardJr/when-and-why-to-use-graphq... [1] https://github.com/graphql-python/graphene-pydantic https://github.com/graphql-python/graphene-pydantic
Slackwise 6y ago
> Auto-generated, type safe entities from source to client, including relationships = fewer bugs Are you saying that your client (interface) has a direct relationship to your database schema...?
- acidbaseextract 6y ago
  No. The server can inspect its GraphQL schema (what the frontend will be querying against) and emit Typescript types to type check against. If someone changes a field name on the backend, type checking the frontend will fail in all the places that expected the original name. No grepping around and chasing chains of passed data.
dalu 6y ago
I have a backend generator that also generates typescript and dart models for the frontends. > Ability to unify different backends Why would that be a GraphQL exclusive thing? > - The “application data graph” ... In my generator I supply the models with relationships, type checked using Go. So when creating those models I write code directly, no need to use a pseudo language like GraphQL. > (not really keen on writing my application logic in SQL) Maybe you should learn it, as it's really simple and powerful as opposed to the GraphQL language. But for the record, neither do I write SQL queries using my generator and last time I had to write SQL was in the 2000s when I was still using PHP. Nowadays I just write my data models and generate the backend and implement the frontend. And I don't need GraphQL for it. @ngrx-data for Angular simplifies communication with the backend. And since I generate my notifier/updater too I have real-time updates via websocket. There's nothing GraphQL offers I don't already do since 2016.

jensneuse 6y ago

Would love to get in touch and discuss this further!

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

folmar 6y ago

Did you trial the ususal suspects for getting those features you list, eg. REST+WADL, SOAP+WSDL?

foota 6y ago
I don't think either of these are a usual suspect anymore. I hadn't even heard of these. Maybe these are more common in some parts of the industry.
- tpxl 6y ago
  I haven't used WADL, but WSDL stands for Web Services Definition Language and is an amazing way to define endpoints and messages with type safety. From these you can generate bindings for pretty much any language or protocol that has a generator (and there are plenty, but probably not for the cool kids^TM 'golang' and 'rust'). One of the reasons it fell out of use is XML is verbose and typesafety is not cool anymore.
  - pault 6y ago
    > typesafety is not cool anymore This is rapidly reversing as the javascript ecosystem has increasingly adopted typescript in the last two years. I, for one, refuse to start a new front end without it, and the only other js dev I've spoken with recently who disagreed had never actually used typescript and didn't want to "write a bunch of interfaces like java".
    - ErikBjare 6y ago
      The same goes for Python, where typechecking with mypy is getting pretty popular.
  - folmar 6y ago
    There is a couple for go and at least one for rust, although I don't know how well it fares. It shines more with languages which allow first-class runtime reflection and code loading, but you only care if dealing with runtime-configured services. Also WSDL 2.0 supports REST. I would not say fell out of use, most enterprise-grade apis, old or new, will have one -- think bank/government/big corp. GraphQL is not there yet - as other commenters pointed out the tooling is not good enough outside JS world, security is complicated on the service side, and the protocol is just to young - the official release is two years ago, so it may start appearing just around now.
davidkell 6y ago
I’m not familiar with those solutions in particular. For type safety, many backend frameworks generate OpenAPI specs automatically, and you can generate Typescript stubs based on this. Ditto for gRPC and gRPC web. We use these. But I’ve not seen a replacement for the “application data graph” (but would be interested to learn about them!). The link from @jefflombardjr [0] explains it nicely - it is a great abstraction (in certain situations). Modelling your application data graph is like modelling a good database schema - when you get it right, the rest of the application follows naturally. It’s magical when it works, and I’d happily do it even if it’s just me working on the project. And GraphQL has a great ecosystem, that is the advantage over niche tools. Example - last week we added auto-generated GraphQL types and relationships for Postgres JSON fields, with the help of [1]. No more malformed JSON breaking our app. Note this is all in the context of a web app. Reading other comments, the tooling seems to be less developed on other platforms. And again, without decent tooling (especially for the server) I wouldn’t touch it. [0] https://medium.com/@JeffLombardJr/when-and-why-to-use-graphql-24f6bce4839d https://medium.com/@JeffLombardJr/when-and-why-to-use-graphq... [1] https://github.com/graphql-python/graphene-pydantic https://github.com/graphql-python/graphene-pydantic

Slackwise 6y ago

> Auto-generated, type safe entities from source to client, including relationships = fewer bugs Are you saying that your client (interface) has a direct relationship to your database schema...?

acidbaseextract 6y ago
No. The server can inspect its GraphQL schema (what the frontend will be querying against) and emit Typescript types to type check against. If someone changes a field name on the backend, type checking the frontend will fail in all the places that expected the original name. No grepping around and chasing chains of passed data.

dalu 6y ago

I have a backend generator that also generates typescript and dart models for the frontends. > Ability to unify different backends Why would that be a GraphQL exclusive thing? > - The “application data graph” ... In my generator I supply the models with relationships, type checked using Go. So when creating those models I write code directly, no need to use a pseudo language like GraphQL. > (not really keen on writing my application logic in SQL) Maybe you should learn it, as it's really simple and powerful as opposed to the GraphQL language. But for the record, neither do I write SQL queries using my generator and last time I had to write SQL was in the 2000s when I was still using PHP. Nowadays I just write my data models and generate the backend and implement the frontend. And I don't need GraphQL for it. @ngrx-data for Angular simplifies communication with the backend. And since I generate my notifier/updater too I have real-time updates via websocket. There's nothing GraphQL offers I don't already do since 2016.