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> Ah. Rodriguez resents progressive movements that seek to upend the current social hierarchy (presumably because Rodriguez enjoys exerting social control far m

> Ah. Rodriguez resents progressive movements that seek to upend the current social hierarchy (presumably because Rodriguez enjoys exerting social control far more than experiencing it) and has coined this new jargon to associate movements he dislikes with a reviled term (totalitarianism) > > Rodriguez begins with an intellectual lie, then uses it to advance the idea that anti-racist and anti-misogynist movements are the actual oppressors. And not the misogynists and racists themselves. What evidence is there that progressive movements are actually seeking to upend anything? Seems to me they've been culturally dominant in America (i.e. they control the schools, the media, entertainment, government bureaucracy and now Big Tech) for over a century, and have this been influential in the rest of the West. As far as I can tell, progressive movements like BLM and MeToo are absolutely attempting to preserve the existing order. After all, these movements and groups are well-funded by the very people you suggest they are trying to take down. These movements and groups (and you?) appear to cheer 1% of the population holding 99% of the wealth as long as that 1% is 50% female, 14% black, 5% percent LGBT or whatever, etc. The intellectual lie you begin with is that progressives don't already have a complete monopoly over the relevant cultural power. EDIT: > Insanely, Rodriguez points to... Also, if I were you, I might be cautious about using the I-word. It's already banned from being in any commits at Google.

knolax 6y ago
> Seems to me they've been culturally dominant in America (i.e. they control the schools, the media, entertainment, government bureaucracy and now Big Tech) for over a century Explain to me how BLM controlled America in the 1920s.
- baryphonic 6y ago
  > Explain to me how BLM controlled America in the 1920s. Progressive movements in general, not BLM and MeToo in particular. The Atlantic, The New Republic, the American Economics Association, Planned Parenthood and many other Progressive organizations have been around for over a century. BLM is a particular instance of the sort of "third wave" of Progressive activism, which is based on expanding the civil rights movement. (The first wave Progressives wanted nothing to do with civil rights, and most were virulent and unrepentant racists like Woodrow Wilson or Margaret Sanger. The second wave was based around the welfare state and neutrality on racial issues, and included FDR, Harry Truman and the New Deal coalition. All three groups advocate for nearly identical policies, and yet have contradictory stated goals.)
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Explain how "existing" is the same as the original "controlling".
  - knolax 6y ago
    > third wave" of Progressive activism, which is based on expanding the civil rights movement. > The first wave Progressives wanted nothing to do with civil rights, and most were virulent and unrepentant racists > All three groups advocate for nearly identical policies All three of these statements can't be true at once.
    - a1369209993 6y ago
      They use "based on" to mean "using a stated goal of "expanding the civil rights movement" as a justification for their policies [despite those policies being nearly identical the policies advocated by first wave Progressives]", not to claim that third wave Progressives actually act in manner consistent with "expanding the civil rights movement" as a terminal goal.
  - chrisweekly 6y ago
    > BLM is a particular instance of the sort of "third wave" of Progressive activism, which is based on expanding the civil rights movement. That sounds like some ivory-tower theoretical nonsense to me. BLM is, on the whole, seeking the real-world application and reification of the original civil rights movement. It's not "expanding" any particular political philosophy to insist on justice by bringing attention to violent crimes perpetrated by law enforcement and the justice system against people of color. Institutionalized racism is real, and the degree to which saying "black lives matter" is necessary, let alone controversial, is telling.
chrisweekly 6y ago
"progressives... have a complete monopoly over the relevant cultural power" Can you really make that claim, in light of the current political climate and in-progress election results?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  "Complete" goes too far, I agree, but it's also not right to think these movements are standing up to the powers that be. A movement including JPMorgan, Google, Nike, Walmart, Chevron, etc. has to be seen as a component of the current social hierarchy rather than a challenge to it.
alangibson 6y ago
> progressive movements like BLM and MeToo are absolutely attempting to preserve the existing order I so wish this were true. If we lived in the world BLM envisions, George Floyd and while lot more people would still be alive.
akiselev 6y ago
BLM started as a response to police brutality driven by an institution that is quite literally the furthest you could get from progressive ideals. In the last hundred years, these police departments: violently broke up strikes at the behest of corporations, tried to put down the Civil Rights movement, and have been by far the biggest proponent of the destructive war on drugs. Institutions that to this day have nearly impenetrable qualified immunity - a level of power no one else has. #MeToo started as a response to a flood of accusations against Harvey Weinstein, quite literally one of the most powerful and influential people in Hollywood at the time. It was followed up by a flood of accusations against Les Moonves, CEO of CBS, one of the most powerful and influential people in television broadcasting at the time. These men were at the top for decades Your analysis makes no logical sense. The nature of these institutions hasn't changed, some figureheads were sacrificed and shuffled around (literally, in the case of police departments).
- Joker_vD 6y ago
  Interesting that BLM seems believe that the largest cause of violent deaths of black persons is police brutality, not the gang violence. Or does the US police actually manage to kill more African-Americans than the ghetto gangs? That'd actually be impressive.
  - akiselev 6y ago
    It's interesting that you believe that they believe that. I was not aware that an organization like BLM proper or a "social movement" like BLM in general could have a unified set of beliefs. It's a physical impossibility. What's the difference between a gang and a "ghetto gang"?
  - pjc50 6y ago
    The difference is that murders by gangs are prosecuted, whereas murders by police tend not to be.
    - throwaway201103 6y ago
      Gang violence is prosecuted, if the perpetrator can be identified. Gangs and people in gang-plagued neighborhoods are very reticent to name names, in fear of retaliation. Every police shooting is investigated. They are often found to be justified, sometimes not. There's room for argument about the impartiality of these investigations, especially historically. The fact remains that dozens of blacks are murdered every week in the USA, while black deaths in the hands of the police are comparatively very rare. I completely agree that police should be held to a higher standard. But I don't understand the complete silence and active suppression of debate over the bigger problem.
jberryman 6y ago
> they control the schools Let's get specific with this one. What's one thing that is taught in schools that you object to?
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  I suspect that what's taught in schools about homosexuality would make liberals more comfortable than conservatives. I suspect that almost everything taught in the humanities in universities would make liberals more comfortable than conservatives.
  - scsilver 6y ago
    Depends on what culture you are conserving, right? Maybe american conservatives ideology conserves a narrow judeo christian, protestant view that isnt necessarily the same conservativism that runs in jewish, Hindu, Catholic, atheistic communities. Sometimes these ideologies intersect on certain values, but it definitely does not contain the whole conservative view.
- serenemaster 6y ago
  The structure of the learning environment. The reference materials. The subjects which have been omitted.

knolax 6y ago

> Seems to me they've been culturally dominant in America (i.e. they control the schools, the media, entertainment, government bureaucracy and now Big Tech) for over a century Explain to me how BLM controlled America in the 1920s.

baryphonic 6y ago
> Explain to me how BLM controlled America in the 1920s. Progressive movements in general, not BLM and MeToo in particular. The Atlantic, The New Republic, the American Economics Association, Planned Parenthood and many other Progressive organizations have been around for over a century. BLM is a particular instance of the sort of "third wave" of Progressive activism, which is based on expanding the civil rights movement. (The first wave Progressives wanted nothing to do with civil rights, and most were virulent and unrepentant racists like Woodrow Wilson or Margaret Sanger. The second wave was based around the welfare state and neutrality on racial issues, and included FDR, Harry Truman and the New Deal coalition. All three groups advocate for nearly identical policies, and yet have contradictory stated goals.)
- pjc50 6y ago
  Explain how "existing" is the same as the original "controlling".
- knolax 6y ago
  > third wave" of Progressive activism, which is based on expanding the civil rights movement. > The first wave Progressives wanted nothing to do with civil rights, and most were virulent and unrepentant racists > All three groups advocate for nearly identical policies All three of these statements can't be true at once.
  - a1369209993 6y ago
    They use "based on" to mean "using a stated goal of "expanding the civil rights movement" as a justification for their policies [despite those policies being nearly identical the policies advocated by first wave Progressives]", not to claim that third wave Progressives actually act in manner consistent with "expanding the civil rights movement" as a terminal goal.
- chrisweekly 6y ago
  > BLM is a particular instance of the sort of "third wave" of Progressive activism, which is based on expanding the civil rights movement. That sounds like some ivory-tower theoretical nonsense to me. BLM is, on the whole, seeking the real-world application and reification of the original civil rights movement. It's not "expanding" any particular political philosophy to insist on justice by bringing attention to violent crimes perpetrated by law enforcement and the justice system against people of color. Institutionalized racism is real, and the degree to which saying "black lives matter" is necessary, let alone controversial, is telling.

chrisweekly 6y ago

"progressives... have a complete monopoly over the relevant cultural power" Can you really make that claim, in light of the current political climate and in-progress election results?

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
"Complete" goes too far, I agree, but it's also not right to think these movements are standing up to the powers that be. A movement including JPMorgan, Google, Nike, Walmart, Chevron, etc. has to be seen as a component of the current social hierarchy rather than a challenge to it.

alangibson 6y ago

> progressive movements like BLM and MeToo are absolutely attempting to preserve the existing order I so wish this were true. If we lived in the world BLM envisions, George Floyd and while lot more people would still be alive.

akiselev 6y ago

BLM started as a response to police brutality driven by an institution that is quite literally the furthest you could get from progressive ideals. In the last hundred years, these police departments: violently broke up strikes at the behest of corporations, tried to put down the Civil Rights movement, and have been by far the biggest proponent of the destructive war on drugs. Institutions that to this day have nearly impenetrable qualified immunity - a level of power no one else has. #MeToo started as a response to a flood of accusations against Harvey Weinstein, quite literally one of the most powerful and influential people in Hollywood at the time. It was followed up by a flood of accusations against Les Moonves, CEO of CBS, one of the most powerful and influential people in television broadcasting at the time. These men were at the top for decades Your analysis makes no logical sense. The nature of these institutions hasn't changed, some figureheads were sacrificed and shuffled around (literally, in the case of police departments).

Joker_vD 6y ago
Interesting that BLM seems believe that the largest cause of violent deaths of black persons is police brutality, not the gang violence. Or does the US police actually manage to kill more African-Americans than the ghetto gangs? That'd actually be impressive.
- akiselev 6y ago
  It's interesting that you believe that they believe that. I was not aware that an organization like BLM proper or a "social movement" like BLM in general could have a unified set of beliefs. It's a physical impossibility. What's the difference between a gang and a "ghetto gang"?
- pjc50 6y ago
  The difference is that murders by gangs are prosecuted, whereas murders by police tend not to be.
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    Gang violence is prosecuted, if the perpetrator can be identified. Gangs and people in gang-plagued neighborhoods are very reticent to name names, in fear of retaliation. Every police shooting is investigated. They are often found to be justified, sometimes not. There's room for argument about the impartiality of these investigations, especially historically. The fact remains that dozens of blacks are murdered every week in the USA, while black deaths in the hands of the police are comparatively very rare. I completely agree that police should be held to a higher standard. But I don't understand the complete silence and active suppression of debate over the bigger problem.

jberryman 6y ago

> they control the schools Let's get specific with this one. What's one thing that is taught in schools that you object to?

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
I suspect that what's taught in schools about homosexuality would make liberals more comfortable than conservatives. I suspect that almost everything taught in the humanities in universities would make liberals more comfortable than conservatives.
- scsilver 6y ago
  Depends on what culture you are conserving, right? Maybe american conservatives ideology conserves a narrow judeo christian, protestant view that isnt necessarily the same conservativism that runs in jewish, Hindu, Catholic, atheistic communities. Sometimes these ideologies intersect on certain values, but it definitely does not contain the whole conservative view.
serenemaster 6y ago
The structure of the learning environment. The reference materials. The subjects which have been omitted.