7 ms·

New lockdown: Manchester University students pull down campus fences

52 points by mrfusion 6y ago

spicyramen 6y ago
Here in Palo Alto the city decided that was a good idea to setup a fence around a kids playground while other activities such as Tenis and Basketball courts, Yoga, soccer were opened. The scenery was very disturbing
- andykx 6y ago
  I suppose the thought was that parents could relax while young children played, knowing that they couldn’t run off.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- anoncake 6y ago
  Children don't vote.
tasogare 6y ago
Very good. All those lockdowns, which are privations of liberty worse than what happen under war time (while yielding way less deaths), are totally incomprehensible for people like me who lives in countries that don’t do it and still handle the situation way better. Europeans need to revolt against those measures which are clearly too harsh for the problem at hand, and which are destroying the local economies.
- slimed 6y ago
  Absolutely. Americans too.
- tasogare 6y ago
  French case: « Le ministre de la santé a justifié le recours au confinement expliquant, sur la base des modélisations de l’Institut Pasteur, que « si nous n’avions rien fait, il y aurait eu 9 000 patients atteints du Covid en réanimation à la mi-novembre ». Si le confinement est bien respecté, 6 000 patients seront en réanimation à cette échéance ; « la seconde vague sera alors moins intense que la première », a poursuivi le ministre. » https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/11/05/covid-19-certains-commerces-fermeront-a-22-heures-a-paris-annonce-anne-hidalgo_6058573_3244.html https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/11/05/covid-19-c... So basically 67 millions French are under lockdown to avoid... 3000 additional people being hospitalized. Pure madness.
  - crooked-v 6y ago
    3000 people in one month, from a disease that exhibits exponential spread through the population.
    - SamReidHughes 6y ago
      Logistic spread, actually.
    - WildParser 6y ago
      If you look closely the mathematics is all Gompertz-Functions. Big expansion in small groups, burning locally too fast to maintain a continuous exponential fire. This results in seasonal dynamics just like a corona-virus. Usually if you look at death by "date of death" you see Gompertz-Functions all around. If you look at death by "reporting date" you often see a very uneven lag forming some exponentials...
  - jobigoud 6y ago
    > 3000 additional people being hospitalized. Not merely hospitalized, but in intensive care units. Do you know how many intensive care units we have? 9000 people in ICU is the saturation point, that's why it's quoted.
- NickNameNick 6y ago
  I agree that lockdowns are tough, but the economy is going to be trashed anyway if people are sick, disabled, dead or simply feel unsafe. And the lockdown wasn't so bad, and the economy not so badly damaged if you did it properly the first time. - Life's pretty good in New Zealand right now.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    European lockdowns cannot be called "improper" in comparison to New Zealand. NZ is an island served by container shipping that could fully close its borders. European states, on the other hand, are not self-sufficient in basic foodstuffs after centuries of trade and decades of the single market, and the borders had to remain open to at least freight trucks and movement of agricultural workers.
    - NickNameNick 6y ago
      The UK is an island nation too. Closing the borders is not the problem, at least initially. Getting cross-contamination level between households down to effectively zero, and keeping it there long enough for 2 infection cycles is the hard part. NZ did it. Australia managed it eventually. A number of Asian countries have done well too. Possibly off the back of experience dealing with the prior SARS/MERS scares. Some of the African countries have done pretty well, possibly because of experience dealing with Ebola. New Zealand gets plenty of goods via air-freight, along with a continuous stream of returning ex-pats and foreign workers. and ships aren't so slow that the crews (and goods) are automatically safe to interact with when they get here. But it can be managed - we're managing it.
      - JNRowe 6y ago
        > The UK is an island nation too. True, but it also has an open land border. There are a bunch of subtleties to the definition of island nation¹, some of which make UK borders erm… interesting². ¹ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_nation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_nation ² https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_United_Kingdo...
- viraptor 6y ago
  Have you considered an alternative view? "People need to revolt against lack of country's social support which is clearly needed during for the problem at hand". Why is it health vs economy that's always raised rather than economy vs economy? Also, countries which did serious lockdowns are doing relatively well in the end (NZ / Oz)
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    Some oppose lockdowns for reasons which greater state welfare payments cannot help, e.g. the lack of socializing opportunities. Namely, as someone himself pretty advanced in years, I don't think it fair to shut down all the places where teenagers and young people could engage in courtship and all the other rituals of youth, for the sake of protecting mainly the elderly who weren't deprived of those things in their time.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    Are they? They locked down for 5 months in Oz. They have no herd immunity. They had the worst economic quarter on record: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/economy/australia-gdp-recession-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/economy/australia-gdp-recessi...
    - vkou 6y ago
      > They have no herd immunity. Neither does anywhere else. Other places simply stabilized at a higher # of infections/day, because they have worse compliance with social distancing, lockdowns, and basic hygeine. But even bad compliance is better than nothing, and brings R0 down. Stop compliance with all of those things, and you get a second wave that dwarfs the first.
    - wesleywt 6y ago
      The countries that sacrificed their old people like Sweden, Italy and Spain don't have herd immunity either.
      - aivisol 6y ago
- mhh__ 6y ago
  > while yielding way less deaths For some perspective I feel it is worthwhile to point out that COVID so far has resulted in the deaths of only 19% less Americans than the second world war.
vkou 6y ago
Here in Seattle, despite the University of Washington turning to online instruction for courses, the frat houses were all open. To the surprise of nobody, those frat houses are now the center of the worst coronavirus outbreak the city has seen this year. It's a shame that the university failed to consider teaching the most important lesson of all - social responsibility for your fellow neighbours.
whatRweEVENdoin 6y ago
These things need to be less politicized and erratic if they are going to work. Why are elementary schools closed across most of the US, while bars and restaurants are mostly open for reduced in-person service? Because the teacher unions and dining industries both have enough political power to get their way. There's no rhyme or reason besides "might makes right", and the rules for businesses seem to change every week, so the growing public frustration is very understandable. I'm proud of these students. It's unconscionable that their institution did not inform them of these installations ahead of time. I've been a student who had to walk a couple miles for groceries, and I held my walking routes to be sacred during that time. If someone put a wall between me and fresh fruits during an exam week with no warning, I would have rioted too. And I bet my grandmother who lived through the Blitz would be rooting for them despite her zeal for giving things up for the public good. The British Bulldog spirit recognizes a difference between austerity and autocracy.
- sparkie 6y ago
  Teachers (public sector) have a guaranteed wage and job security, because they don't have to provide a quality service which people are going to pay for of their own volition. Their is no personal risk to them under lockdown, so they are more than happy to sacrifice the education of children for their own sense of safety. Bars and restaurants are private businesses which must provide service which people are willing to pay for. If they don't provide the service, they don't get paid. The owners and the employees are naturally more inclined to continue working and not be gaslighted by coronahysteria. Remember, public sector workers contribute zero to the public purse, and if they are not working, they are contributing zero value whatsoever, yet expect the people who are contributing to continue paying their wages.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - amcoastal 6y ago
microtherion 6y ago
I'm on the side of health precautions for this epidemic, but in this particular case, the fences not only look very oppressive from a psychological point of view to me, but could also potentially represent a fire hazard. There has to be a better way.
- ShroudedNight 6y ago
  They also appear to have chosen to use riot fencing that is designed to coercively maximize the difficulty of traversal. They could have chosen fencing for which traversal would require intent, but ultimately allow it.
  - jsiepkes 6y ago
    That's pretty standard construction site fencing which is used in a lot of countries. The fence would probably also be pretty ineffective as "riot fencing" since it is really high and has a small foot. Meaning it is unstable and easy to push over. Even when the fences are chained that will still be a problem.
- harry8 6y ago
  Don't overlook the anger of the students that everyone knew there was going to be a lockdown but they insisted all the students return so they could pay rent. You can't make this stuff up. The students have every right to be very angry, they've been ripped off for money and are stuck in a very uncomfortable place to do lockdown. Everyone knew it would happen, staying home and refusing to return was "discouraged" by way of pure retribution. You don't come back, you forfeit your place and everything you've worked for. People aren't scared enough of students because apparently naked fear is the only motivator to get these awful politicians to behave with even the smallest shred of decency. Lock them in, claim they were told it would happen then acknowledge that this claim was a total lie. No consequences. All the expense, all hassle and frustration on the students. Milk them harder, that's what they're for say the powers that be.
  - kryogen1c 6y ago
Kephael 6y ago
This looks like a prison riot, the "free" West is turning into a gulag that can't even reach its stated aims of containing COVID.
mlang23 6y ago
About time people start to stand up against certain measures. It has become pretty obvious that governments are using the pandemic to figure out how much they can fuck with citizens without them rioting. In the last 8 months, the so-called freedom in the west has been put to a pretty harsh test. It has been demonstrated that almost everything we learnt about democracy and freedom at school has been a blatant lie.
wesleywt 6y ago
Why don't they close the University? My Uni has been closed the whole year now. Been working from home ever since.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Which university? The government rhetoric was that universities should not only remain open but must do face to face teaching. Without this, the landlords of student accommodation would have been deprived of a years income.

52 points by mrfusion 6y ago

Here in Palo Alto the city decided that was a good idea to setup a fence around a kids playground while other activities such as Tenis and Basketball courts, Yoga, soccer were opened. The scenery was very disturbing

andykx 6y ago
I suppose the thought was that parents could relax while young children played, knowing that they couldn’t run off.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
anoncake 6y ago
Children don't vote.

tasogare 6y ago

Very good. All those lockdowns, which are privations of liberty worse than what happen under war time (while yielding way less deaths), are totally incomprehensible for people like me who lives in countries that don’t do it and still handle the situation way better. Europeans need to revolt against those measures which are clearly too harsh for the problem at hand, and which are destroying the local economies.

slimed 6y ago
Absolutely. Americans too.
tasogare 6y ago
French case: « Le ministre de la santé a justifié le recours au confinement expliquant, sur la base des modélisations de l’Institut Pasteur, que « si nous n’avions rien fait, il y aurait eu 9 000 patients atteints du Covid en réanimation à la mi-novembre ». Si le confinement est bien respecté, 6 000 patients seront en réanimation à cette échéance ; « la seconde vague sera alors moins intense que la première », a poursuivi le ministre. » https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/11/05/covid-19-certains-commerces-fermeront-a-22-heures-a-paris-annonce-anne-hidalgo_6058573_3244.html https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2020/11/05/covid-19-c... So basically 67 millions French are under lockdown to avoid... 3000 additional people being hospitalized. Pure madness.
- crooked-v 6y ago
  3000 people in one month, from a disease that exhibits exponential spread through the population.
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    Logistic spread, actually.
  - WildParser 6y ago
    If you look closely the mathematics is all Gompertz-Functions. Big expansion in small groups, burning locally too fast to maintain a continuous exponential fire. This results in seasonal dynamics just like a corona-virus. Usually if you look at death by "date of death" you see Gompertz-Functions all around. If you look at death by "reporting date" you often see a very uneven lag forming some exponentials...
- jobigoud 6y ago
  > 3000 additional people being hospitalized. Not merely hospitalized, but in intensive care units. Do you know how many intensive care units we have? 9000 people in ICU is the saturation point, that's why it's quoted.
NickNameNick 6y ago
I agree that lockdowns are tough, but the economy is going to be trashed anyway if people are sick, disabled, dead or simply feel unsafe. And the lockdown wasn't so bad, and the economy not so badly damaged if you did it properly the first time. - Life's pretty good in New Zealand right now.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  European lockdowns cannot be called "improper" in comparison to New Zealand. NZ is an island served by container shipping that could fully close its borders. European states, on the other hand, are not self-sufficient in basic foodstuffs after centuries of trade and decades of the single market, and the borders had to remain open to at least freight trucks and movement of agricultural workers.
  - NickNameNick 6y ago
    The UK is an island nation too. Closing the borders is not the problem, at least initially. Getting cross-contamination level between households down to effectively zero, and keeping it there long enough for 2 infection cycles is the hard part. NZ did it. Australia managed it eventually. A number of Asian countries have done well too. Possibly off the back of experience dealing with the prior SARS/MERS scares. Some of the African countries have done pretty well, possibly because of experience dealing with Ebola. New Zealand gets plenty of goods via air-freight, along with a continuous stream of returning ex-pats and foreign workers. and ships aren't so slow that the crews (and goods) are automatically safe to interact with when they get here. But it can be managed - we're managing it.
    - JNRowe 6y ago
      > The UK is an island nation too. True, but it also has an open land border. There are a bunch of subtleties to the definition of island nation¹, some of which make UK borders erm… interesting². ¹ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_nation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_nation ² https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_the_United_Kingdo...
viraptor 6y ago
Have you considered an alternative view? "People need to revolt against lack of country's social support which is clearly needed during for the problem at hand". Why is it health vs economy that's always raised rather than economy vs economy? Also, countries which did serious lockdowns are doing relatively well in the end (NZ / Oz)
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Some oppose lockdowns for reasons which greater state welfare payments cannot help, e.g. the lack of socializing opportunities. Namely, as someone himself pretty advanced in years, I don't think it fair to shut down all the places where teenagers and young people could engage in courtship and all the other rituals of youth, for the sake of protecting mainly the elderly who weren't deprived of those things in their time.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Are they? They locked down for 5 months in Oz. They have no herd immunity. They had the worst economic quarter on record: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/economy/australia-gdp-recession-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/economy/australia-gdp-recessi...
  - vkou 6y ago
    > They have no herd immunity. Neither does anywhere else. Other places simply stabilized at a higher # of infections/day, because they have worse compliance with social distancing, lockdowns, and basic hygeine. But even bad compliance is better than nothing, and brings R0 down. Stop compliance with all of those things, and you get a second wave that dwarfs the first.
  - wesleywt 6y ago
    The countries that sacrificed their old people like Sweden, Italy and Spain don't have herd immunity either.
    - aivisol 6y ago
mhh__ 6y ago
> while yielding way less deaths For some perspective I feel it is worthwhile to point out that COVID so far has resulted in the deaths of only 19% less Americans than the second world war.

vkou 6y ago

Here in Seattle, despite the University of Washington turning to online instruction for courses, the frat houses were all open. To the surprise of nobody, those frat houses are now the center of the worst coronavirus outbreak the city has seen this year. It's a shame that the university failed to consider teaching the most important lesson of all - social responsibility for your fellow neighbours.

whatRweEVENdoin 6y ago

These things need to be less politicized and erratic if they are going to work. Why are elementary schools closed across most of the US, while bars and restaurants are mostly open for reduced in-person service? Because the teacher unions and dining industries both have enough political power to get their way. There's no rhyme or reason besides "might makes right", and the rules for businesses seem to change every week, so the growing public frustration is very understandable. I'm proud of these students. It's unconscionable that their institution did not inform them of these installations ahead of time. I've been a student who had to walk a couple miles for groceries, and I held my walking routes to be sacred during that time. If someone put a wall between me and fresh fruits during an exam week with no warning, I would have rioted too. And I bet my grandmother who lived through the Blitz would be rooting for them despite her zeal for giving things up for the public good. The British Bulldog spirit recognizes a difference between austerity and autocracy.

sparkie 6y ago
Teachers (public sector) have a guaranteed wage and job security, because they don't have to provide a quality service which people are going to pay for of their own volition. Their is no personal risk to them under lockdown, so they are more than happy to sacrifice the education of children for their own sense of safety. Bars and restaurants are private businesses which must provide service which people are willing to pay for. If they don't provide the service, they don't get paid. The owners and the employees are naturally more inclined to continue working and not be gaslighted by coronahysteria. Remember, public sector workers contribute zero to the public purse, and if they are not working, they are contributing zero value whatsoever, yet expect the people who are contributing to continue paying their wages.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- amcoastal 6y ago

microtherion 6y ago

I'm on the side of health precautions for this epidemic, but in this particular case, the fences not only look very oppressive from a psychological point of view to me, but could also potentially represent a fire hazard. There has to be a better way.

ShroudedNight 6y ago
They also appear to have chosen to use riot fencing that is designed to coercively maximize the difficulty of traversal. They could have chosen fencing for which traversal would require intent, but ultimately allow it.
- jsiepkes 6y ago
  That's pretty standard construction site fencing which is used in a lot of countries. The fence would probably also be pretty ineffective as "riot fencing" since it is really high and has a small foot. Meaning it is unstable and easy to push over. Even when the fences are chained that will still be a problem.
harry8 6y ago
Don't overlook the anger of the students that everyone knew there was going to be a lockdown but they insisted all the students return so they could pay rent. You can't make this stuff up. The students have every right to be very angry, they've been ripped off for money and are stuck in a very uncomfortable place to do lockdown. Everyone knew it would happen, staying home and refusing to return was "discouraged" by way of pure retribution. You don't come back, you forfeit your place and everything you've worked for. People aren't scared enough of students because apparently naked fear is the only motivator to get these awful politicians to behave with even the smallest shred of decency. Lock them in, claim they were told it would happen then acknowledge that this claim was a total lie. No consequences. All the expense, all hassle and frustration on the students. Milk them harder, that's what they're for say the powers that be.
- kryogen1c 6y ago

Kephael 6y ago

This looks like a prison riot, the "free" West is turning into a gulag that can't even reach its stated aims of containing COVID.

mlang23 6y ago

About time people start to stand up against certain measures. It has become pretty obvious that governments are using the pandemic to figure out how much they can fuck with citizens without them rioting. In the last 8 months, the so-called freedom in the west has been put to a pretty harsh test. It has been demonstrated that almost everything we learnt about democracy and freedom at school has been a blatant lie.

wesleywt 6y ago

Why don't they close the University? My Uni has been closed the whole year now. Been working from home ever since.

pjc50 6y ago
Which university? The government rhetoric was that universities should not only remain open but must do face to face teaching. Without this, the landlords of student accommodation would have been deprived of a years income.