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Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

• brryant 6y ago
  This is honestly a great way for tech entrepreneurs to experience Nordic living. The fact is Finland has one of the most startup friendly environments around: — top schools (Aalto U. produces incredibly talented engineers) — startup friendly ecosystem (cheap rents, cheap internet) — Finnish work culture (direct, no nonsense, hard working but balanced) — fantastic food and beverage scene in downtown Helsinki My wife is originally from Finland but we live in SF now, but as soon as COVID is over we'll all go back to Helsinki so I can start Webflow's first EU office there. Hope this program stays around for that!
  • kondro 6y ago
    - Nationalised health care.
  • Devils-Avocado 6y ago
    Also: 24% VAT (sales tax) 18% employer payroll taxes 10% employee payroll taxes 20-30% typical income tax Take your American disposable income and cut it in half. Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Also a lot of cold and darkness.
    • Jommi 6y ago
      As an engineer you're already going to be making enough money to be comfortable in Finland for the rest of your life. In addition to that, there is no stress from minmaxing your whole life like in USA. Real life isn't diablo, you're supposed to enjoy it. There's a reason Finland tops satisfaction/happiness charts every single time. I think it says a lot about the person on how they value these decisions
    • ksdale 6y ago
      If these numbers are correct, the payroll taxes total about 13% higher than American payroll taxes, but if you add in what Americans pay for the health insurance that’s presumably included in one of these taxes, it’s probably fairly similar. 20-30% is a very normal marginal American tax rate, and the VAT is high (looks like it may be lower for certain things), but not ridiculous compared to a lot of American state income taxes (Since the income tax is on income and not just consumption). I’m skeptical of a halving of disposable income, especially for someone moving from somewhere like California.
      • Sharlin 6y ago
        > (looks like it may be lower for certain things) Namely, 14% for food (both groceries and restaurant, excl. alcohol), 10% for books, exercise services like gyms, culture/entertainment tickets, hotel accommodation, public transit, and over-the-counter drugs (prescription drugs are heavily subsidized by the state).
        • ashtonkem 6y ago
          14% for food is quite high, but I've personally lived in two cities with a 10.25% sales tax (Chicago & Santa Monica); so that's not far out of line with at least some American cities.
    • todsul 6y ago
      There are certainly downsides to living in Finland, but you picked a poor comparison in taxes. Taxes in the US are NOT low. Income tax is only one of many taxes in the US. In some states/cities, your property tax can exceed income tax. My state has extremely high taxes on cars too. It all adds up to a lot of money and a relatively high total tax rate. I wouldn't be surprised it a significant number of people in the US have a higher total tax rate than the Finnish average. Of course you can choose low-tax states, but the US as a whole certainly isn't some sort of tax haven.
      • usr1106 6y ago
        Not an expert an the area, but from what I read the US is a tax heaven for the super rich, Finland certainly is not. Progressive tax rates are high. There are creative ways to get your (should I say their?) income avoiding progression, then it's flat 30%. Both are taxing the normal mortals, Finland probably slightly higher.
    • jperras 6y ago
      > Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Yes.
      • fapi1974 6y ago
        Yes.
      • peterburkimsher 6y ago
        Yes, because I'd rather live in a society where everyone has a decent education, instead of segregating the population based on who can pay to become smarter.
        • gitgud 6y ago
          Perfectly sums up my feelings. Sidenote: I would have the internet would have made paying for education obsolete... But it seems information and education are not equivalent...
    • 6177c40f 6y ago
      Would you not be saving (or at least not spending more) money by not having to pay for your healthcare needs. Besides the fact that if the rents really are cheap, then that would also be a huge savings for a lot of people.
      • distances 6y ago
        Rents are not cheap, except maybe if compared to SF.
    • eepp 6y ago
      > Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Yes.
    • tbrake 6y ago
      Ah yes, a healthier, better educated populace - the historic marker of a society in decline.
      • voidmain0001 6y ago
        Thank you for that belly laugh!
    • socialdemocrat 6y ago
      It is not like taxes disappear into a black hole never to be seen. Most of that money comes back to you in the form of services Americans would have to pay for anyway. What matters is what the taxes give you. A lot of American taxes don’t give people much of anything. Maintaining the worlds largest prison population is expensive but what exactly does that give the Average American? Worlds largest military also sucks up tax dollars but don’t give any benefits back. Finnish taxes give you education, health care, child care, sick leave, vacation, job retraining, great public transport and many other thing directly improving your quality of life.
      • Devils-Avocado 6y ago
        In Europe those services pay for a huge welfare and pension system, and healthcare which is mostly used by the elderly. Very little benefit will be received by a working-age expat.
        • rtkwe 6y ago
          It’s not strictly about getting more out of the system than you particularly put in. On top of that no one knows if their the average or the one who’s going to need expensive life saving intervention. It levels out some of the randomness of the world for everyone, it largely removes one of the big causes of bankruptcy in the US which is medical debt.
        • Teever 6y ago
          That's a great generalization about the entire continent of Europe but do you have any specific issues with how taxes in Finland are used?
        • purerandomness 6y ago
          As a working-age expat, you might still have an ambulance called after an accident or a drug overdose after partying, having cancer surgery, a flu shot, a pregnancy or an IVF, all for free.
          • emteycz 6y ago
    • donkey-hotei 6y ago
      Yes.
    • sterlind 6y ago
      Yeah, that sounds like a good trade to me. Having free education and free healthcare means I can take risks and join a start-up or get another degree, rather than worrying about losing my coverage and getting sick from my chronic illness. Also I love the sound of the language, and would like to learn it, and the cold never bothered me anyway.
    • tipiirai 6y ago
      I live in Helsinki. People here are generally happy to pay the taxes to get all the good stuff from the goverment. I would personally support higher tax levels.
      • stevekemp 6y ago
        I moved to Helsinki from Edinburgh, my taxes are higher here in Finland than they were in Scotland but I don't complain. The public transport, the child-friendly facilities, and similar things make me "happy" to pay. Lovely city and I regret nothing about my time here.
      • dkdk8283 6y ago
        Personally I’m against higher tax: I’ve paid a lot in and gotten very little out.
        • tipiirai 6y ago
          In Finland?
          • shitgoose 6y ago
            anywhere
    • trynewideas 6y ago
      > Take your American disposable income and cut it in half. Cancer already takes all of it here, tyvm, so I'd gladly like to see half of it back.
    • markdown 6y ago
      > Take your American disposable income and cut it in half. All that disposable income but no vacation time to spend it.
      • NeutronStar 6y ago
        The worse is his "disposable income" includes having to pay for health insurance which is covered by our "high taxes". Even worse is he's still gonna have to pay for his healthcare as his insurance won't cover everything. They always forget that one.
      • conanbatt 6y ago
        You can take all the vacations you want if you have money
      • cpach 6y ago
        It used to be that tech employees in the US had very few vacation days compared to people in Europe. However, AFAICT now the FAANG companies seem to offer more vacation days and it seems to get closer to what is typical for Europe.
    • jjav 6y ago
      > Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? No brainer, absolutely worth it. Even making good money in Silicon Valley I'm perpetually afraid of medical bankruptcy if something were to happen. And the cost of education here takes another 15% off my salary for schools far lower quality than in Finland.
      • TheGrim-888 6y ago
        If you're afraid of an unexpected large financial burden, I have news for you, there's a product you can buy that limits the unexpected burden in return for small regular payments, it's called insurance! If you're afraid of your vehicle being unexpectedly totaled, you can insure it! Similarly, you can buy health insurance to insure you against the scenario you're so worried about. It's an unheard of idea, I know. And even better, the extra 30+% of your paycheck that you don't have to pay in tax, you can use that to pay for your health insurance.
      • ciarannolan 6y ago
        You're "making good money in Silicon Valley" and don't have health insurance? Are you freelancing and choosing not to purchase insurance?
        • bleepblorp 6y ago
          The overwhelming majority of Americans who experience medical bankruptcy have health insurance.
        • misterpigs 6y ago
          You're assuming that whatever you're stricken with leaves you in good enough health to continue working.
          • refurb 6y ago
            But that’s true in Canada as well. The medical expenses might not bankrupt you, but not being able to work will. https://bankruptcy-canada.com/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptcy/ https://bankruptcy-canada.com/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptc...
    • artursilva 6y ago
      I mean if you do the math on it, it's a lower upfront cost for everyone with insurance that you won't be bankrupted by chance, thus creating more stable more incremental wealth. So it depends, but as a general policy it's far more sensible to have stability than not. The question should be whether we could lower those costs (taxes) and still have the free education and free healthcare, and if so what are the compromises to be made in order to do that. Remember it's not a zero sum game, which means a nation can start to produce wealth or save on costs, bringing up efficiency and lowering the required taxes per person to deliver the same goods and service. The real problem is corruption, and inefficiencies.
    • briffle 6y ago
      I pay federal and state income tax, plus my employer pays payroll taxes, plus property tax. My state has no sales tax, but pretty high property tax. Plus, my employer and I pay about $1800 a month for healthcare, plus a few hundred a month in student loans. My disposable american income is probably much less..
    • fogihujy 6y ago
      > Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? For me? Yes. Without the shadow of a doubt. I'd stay out of Helsinki, though. Too many people! :D
    • hyeomans 6y ago
      Yes. Come and live in a banana republic and it will be worth it.
    • elviejo 6y ago
      Hell yes!! In other posts people are complaining about the homeless people living in SF... you know how you avoid homeless persons?? by having taxes paid healthcare (there is no free), taxes paid education, taxes paid home support.
      • ghufran_syed 6y ago
        living in a place too cold to survive on the street probably makes a difference too...
    • jrockway 6y ago
      I am not sure that this is much worse than the US. The government gets about 44% of what it costs to employ me (that is, I'm including taxes that the employer pays the government, but come before the negotiated salary, if that makes any sense). I then pay about 9% tax on everything I buy (8.875% technically). This doesn't include any healthcare, housing, food, or savings for my retirement. The cost of having a society is high. The big difference between Europe and the US is that there is some sort of safety net if you become unable to work. Here, you get a cardboard box under the highway and a stern lecture to try harder next time from a 104-year-old politician that's never had a real job in their life. It's good when it's good, but it can get bad fast.
    • usr1106 6y ago
      Having lived in several European countries I'd say Finland has probably one of the weaker health care systems. * every legal resident has access to basic health care in their own municipality. A visit costs around 30 euros, max 700 euros a year (Which is a lot compared to Germany, cheap compared to the US). Queues can be long, several weeks. Negotiation skills help, but as a foreigner you might get blocked completely as a trouble maker if you think to negotiate in English * nearly everybody with a full employment contract has basic health care coverage by their employer at a private provider. Normally you get an appointment the next day or so and you pay absolutely nothing. So most employed people just skip their "free" public health care, because it is worse. Yes, the employement health care is subsidized by tax money (although they are cutting back). This is not mandatory, so the details especially for mor expensive treatments and examinations vary a bit. When your employer stops paying you need to fall back to public service or pay yourself. * for kids around 50% have private insurance to avoid the queing at the public service * medicines are expensive compared to Germany, but cheap compared to market prices. Well, basically they are covered by the public health insurance, but the compensation is far from 100%, own contribution max 600 euros a year. * hospital care is 50 euros a day, max 700 a year. There can be some queues, but for acute cases there should be no problem. (Non-acute cases can be a pain.) In real serious cases the 1500 or so Euros you pay a year is of course cheap compared to complete bankruptcy or even remaining without good treatment. Being relatively healthy paying several 100 Euros a year is more than you would pay in many European countries with a public health insurance systems.
      • refurb 6y ago
        Thanks for sharing these details. It’s always interesting to read what the system is like on a day to day basis versus talking about “universal care” as if every system is identical.
      • deanclatworthy 6y ago
        This is very accurate and has been my experience too. Public has been great when acute (broken limbs) and frustratingly slow with chronic but dehabilitating conditions.
      • zooweemama 6y ago
    • ZeteticElench 6y ago
      You sound like you voted for Trump.
    • kaitai 6y ago
      Hey, when I was paying $14k/year for childcare... yep. Now I'm only paying like $8k/yr for childcare. If I had two-three kids, Finland would be an easy financial win. And just think about college there! My sib went there for grad school because of the finances & stayed. Thinking about following.
    • hestefisk 6y ago
      I’d take higher taxes and welfare state over Trump and American private health payer system any day.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • disabled 6y ago
      > Still worth it for 'free' education and 'free' healthcare? Yes. The taxes are worth it, for a stable society. This US 2020 election: An Associated Press analysis reveals that in 376 counties with the highest number of new cases per capita, the overwhelming majority — 93% of those counties — went for Trump, a rate above other less severely hit areas.: https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-coronavirus-updates-20201105-zmkrvcttqrerhnemp5xk7owo4m-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-coronavirus... 2016 US election (there are multiple studies on it but there was one from Boston University public health that was the most revealing): Study: Communities Most Affected By Opioid Epidemic Also Voted For Trump: https://www.npr.org/2016/12/17/505965420/study-communities-most-affected-by-opioid-epidemic-also-voted-for-trump https://www.npr.org/2016/12/17/505965420/study-communities-m... I am a dual US|Croatian (European Union) citizen. I happily pay Croatian taxes, just for the stability. I don’t have to worry about amassing a huge amount of savings for retirement as an EU citizen and I can work/live/retire in 30+ countries. (By the way, if you save for retirement, in the millions range, it may not pay for your cancer or rare disease treatment, even if covered by insurance, due to Medicare Part D catastrophic coverage level. I know this because my out-of-pocket responsibility for my blood product costs $50,000+/year under Medicare Part D, under catastrophic coverage level. 7% of the general population has some sort of a rare disease and obviously cancer is a common diagnosis) > Also a lot of cold and darkness. Well, I’m from Seattle and I have to say, you eventually get used to the dreariness, cold, and darkness.
    • ponker 6y ago
      I doubt the co-founder of Webflow gives a crap.
    • enahs-sf 6y ago
      Username checks out.
    • quickthrower2 6y ago
      I don't see this as a relocation opportunity. It sounds like a travel opportunity. I think digital nomads will go for this, then that's 90 days of those tax levels, which makes no difference as they are optimising for experience not income (otherwise they'd stay working onsite for a FAANG)
    • theshrike79 6y ago
      4-5 weeks paid vacation. No "sick days" to keep track of, if you're sick you still get paid. It's only dark half the year, the other half is all light all the time.
    • speedgoose 6y ago
      Yes, definitely. If you only think about you and your family, in this system you can also be sure that your children will have access to free education and free health care, and your grandchildren too. It's also nice to live in a society where everyone has access to free education and free healthcare. The inequalities are not as big and it benefits you indirectly.
    • msh 6y ago
      Why do you put free in quotes? Weather its wort it is still a personal question, but my education was certainly free including my masters degree (I even got paid a stipend to study like everyone else).
    • params 6y ago
      That's funny, because when viewing those numbers from a Swedish perspective they're not that controversive or high. I would go so far and say that they're below medium, some of them reaching low. I would get to keep so much more of my salary in Finland, since my income tax is at around 40% here in Sweden. Add to that all the other kreeping taxes added over time. I love Sweden tho, no tax can change that ;)
    • jusssi 6y ago
      Your list has some inaccuracies and omissions. There are also quite significant 14% (e.g. groceries, restaurants) and 10% (some specific services) VAT categories. Most of employer payroll "tax" (~18%) and employee payroll "tax" (8.4%) is actually mandatory pension fund payments and counts toward your accumulated pension. Many people choose to pay the 1% church tax, even though it is entirely optional (most of those people participate in any church stuff only for weddings and funerals). We also pay ridiculously high taxes for cars and fuel, tobacco and alcohol. Additional things we get for our taxes: * 'free' defense against our eastern neighbor (we only have to pay with our blood, if they ever decide to try again) * 'free' mental health care and basic necessities for the crazies in the subway, so I don't have to be their therapist and they're slightly less likely to murder me for my pants * 'free' police force who are respected by the society, rarely need to resort to lethal force, and don't get to keep the money from traffic tickets and impounded property * 'free' elections, with no armed mobs demanding the vote to be changed to their desires * 'free' air conditioning, just open a window (also there's no need to pay for sunblock, you won't need it)
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • dharma1 6y ago
    I would echo this. If you want to experience the best parts of Nordic living (clean/functional everything, super close to nature, great free education, egalitarian attitudes) and are a tech entrepreneur or an investor, Helsinki offers all of the above plus very skilled engineers for reasonable salaries compared to the Bay Area, to build world class companies. People generally work hard but smart, tell you how it is to your face and are generally honest, kind and sincere. And welcome to Helsinki, I think Webflow will do great there! Love the platform.
  • 0xfaded 6y ago
    I moved from SF to the Nordics on a startup visa and feel obligated to temper expectations whenever I see these. - There are good schools and people, but don't expect the density of top people to be anything close to SF. Finding friends to talk shop with requires active engagement. - Every European country is trying to promote itself as startup friendly, and what you are seeing from a distance is being heavily curated by government funded marketing efforts. I recently declined to take part in an marketing video because I cannot in good faith suggest people leave SF/US unless it is for ideological reasons. Expect your company L's valuation to be 1/10th of what the would be back in the US. Expect to make up the private investment shortfall with hugely distracting public funding, both in terms of wasted time applying/reporting and tangental product development. Labour laws will require you to have a _at_least_ extra 3 months of runway on hand so that you can give the mandatory notice periods. -Nordic work culture gets really old really quickly if you're a high achiever type. - Nightlife is just one of those things America does bigger and better - Finally, and this is admittedly tongue in cheek, expect to be taxed to hell and back on all things fun unless it involves making babies. Anyone planning a move to Europe as an entrepreneur, please take time to talk to people and understand the downsides. It's still okay to move for ideological reasons or if europe offers a better environment than your home country. But understand a lot of what you are seeing is being promoted by marketing departments, not entrepreneurs.
    • dharma1 6y ago
      Where in the Nordics did you move to? > - There are good schools and people, but don't expect the density of top people to be anything close to SF. Finding friends to talk shop with requires active engagement. This is true in terms of density, but if you do put in a bit of effort, you can find lots of hardcore skilled people to talk shop with. Depends on your speciality but lots of good devs in Helsinki, across web/mobile dev, embedded, game dev, machine learning (check out papers coming out of Nvidia Helsinki office), audio and graphics dev (great demoscene legacy), also more exotic fields like quantum physics or SAR satellite tech.. In fact you can find experts in most fields to hang out with > - Every European country is trying to promote itself as startup friendly, and what you are seeing from a distance is being heavily curated by government funded marketing efforts. I recently declined to take part in an marketing video because I cannot in good faith suggest people leave SF/US unless it is for ideological reasons. Expect your company L's valuation to be 1/10th of what the would be back in the US. Expect to make up the private investment shortfall with hugely distracting public funding, both in terms of wasted time applying/reporting and tangental product development. Labour laws will require you to have a _at_least_ extra 3 months of runway on hand so that you can give the mandatory notice periods. There is some truth to this (though I would say early stage valuations are perhaps half, not 10%), but there is nothing fundamental stopping you from building a global company in the Nordics, there are many examples of this - Skype, Spotify, Supercell etc. Also I think there is more and more VC money available, also from US VCs, to Nordic companies - they are seeing the high quality of startups and attracted by the non-inflated valuations. If anything, I would say that as an employer, reasonable engineering salaries and somewhat less competition for talent is in your favour vs SF.
• aloknnikhil 6y ago
  I was watching a TED talk on the "Good Country Index" a couple of days ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X7fZoDs9KU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X7fZoDs9KU Funnily enough, Finland is #1 right now. https://www.goodcountry.org/index/results/ https://www.goodcountry.org/index/results/
• cambalache 6y ago
  Maybe I am being dumb (Finnish application officers, do not read this) but I dont understand what the offer is. A 90 days business visa? Forget it, I just read this: > The “90-Day Finn” program is funded by the Helsinki Business Hub and is specifically targeted at “technical professionals” on the west coast of the United States. Hub will fund the “90-day free transfer package to Helsinki” and invite children. This an attempt to "steal" SV engineers, I am not in that category, so back at the end of the line for me.
  • Rebelgecko 6y ago
    It also sounds like they're setting up housing and networking opportunities for the 90 days
    • cambalache 6y ago
      Networking is fine,but unless they will provide housing (they wont) I could manage to get housing by myself, not much value there.
      • wolfram74 6y ago
        "We will provide selected applicants with a free 90-day relocation package for the entire family. We’ll arrange your ||housing||, daycare, schooling, everything you need – the real deal, just like a Finn." It looks like quite the package.
        • shard 6y ago
          Right, they will arrange housing (find a place you can rent) but not provide housing (pay the rent on a place for you).
        • freehunter 6y ago
          In other links here it looks like they just give you housing for 90 days until you’ve bought your own house/apartment. Which, at the average cost of an apartment in Helsinki, would save you about $3000-$7000. It helps a bit, but not super significant if you’re used to SV housing prices. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Helsinki https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Helsinki
• elevenoh 6y ago
  This is neat. Some things I like about finland/helsinki: Happy down to earth citizens, socially liberal with far less echochamber/signalling/two-faced bs than california for instance, tons of Finnish sauna, & great air quality for a big city.
  • hervature 6y ago
    Helsinki is 600,000 people and 400/km^2. That's essentially the same as Oklahoma City. I know OKC has a basketball team and city is in the name, but most people wouldn't call OKC a big city and wouldn't be surprised by better air quality compared to places with millions of people.
    • Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      Helsinki itself is only 600,000 people, but Helsinki has fused into a single big city with the neighboring municipalities of Espoo and Vantaa (and a bunch of smaller ones), and the total population exceeds one million people.
      • hervature 6y ago
        The OKC metro is also 1.5 million people. The two are very comparable by population/size. It doesn't detract from the point that Helsinki isn't a large city. I'm giving regional context to Americans that if you don't consider OKC large, you shouldn't consider Helsinki large.
        • asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
          It's fair to bring this up, but it's also worth noting that a medium fish in a small pond has a different experience than a medium fish in a big pond. A third of all the people who live in Finland live in Helsinki.
    • BurningFrog 6y ago
      Helsinki is the capital city and cultural center of a nation. The best of the best in Finland live, work, and perform there. For cities, as so many other things, it's not all about size.
• danceparty 6y ago
  I'm confused if this is for people that are already employed (aren't there tax implications for working in another country?) or for startup founders, or startup employees?
  • owyn 6y ago
    No major tax implications, it's just for 90 days... It's more like a concierge service + air bnb "experiences" and stuff like that, plus services for your family (like day care). If you wanted to apply for a longer stay that's an option too. I think it's a neat idea though, and it sounds like fun!
  • pdx6 6y ago
    You won’t be taxed by the Finns since you need to be there 181 days to be considered a tax resident. For those staying for about a year, the US has a FEIE exemption that kicks in for the first 105k or so anyway. No exception for California taxes, however.
  • shard 6y ago
    I think there may be tax implications since the company you work for might need to pay taxes to the country you are working in. This is the reason HR is not allowing me to work in another country even though I am 100% WFH right now due to COVID and thus physical location should not matter.
• neom 6y ago
  This article has a lot more details about the program: https://eminetra.co.nz/in-finland-you-can-try-helsinkis-high-tech-scene-for-free-for-90-days/66403/ https://eminetra.co.nz/in-finland-you-can-try-helsinkis-high...
• aresant 6y ago
  “Participants can apply between 4.11.2020-10.12.2020.”
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • sokoloff 6y ago
    Confusingly to Americans, this is probably Nov 4th to Dec 10th, 2020.
  • EQVEYWDCHQ 6y ago
    This is in European format, so November 4th to December 10th.
    • markdown 6y ago
      It's less a "European" format and more a "most of the world" format.
  • dpeck 6y ago
    The only thing worse than mm-dd-yyyy is dd-mm-yyyy. Long live yyyy-mm-dd
    • humanlion87 6y ago
      I have to disagree here. Both dd-mm-yyyy and yyyy-mm-dd are much much better than the mm-dd-yyyy. Both are very intuitive compared to the completely unintuitive mm-dd format.
    • abraae 6y ago
      yyyy-mm-dd for the win indeed, if only for being naively sortable.
      • Sharlin 6y ago
        Yyyy-mm-dd is not used in real life because it puts the (in most contexts) least useful information first.
• nstj 6y ago
  > Experience four seasons: changes in weather and daylight are a feature and not a bug This looks like a wonderful offering. With phrases like the above it looks to be one of the first of its nature where government _gets_ the needs of remote tech workers.
  • howlgarnish 6y ago
    What they don't mention is the length of those seasons, which in Finland consist of winter, winter, winter and construction. Even in Helsinki snow can fall as early as September and as late as May.
    • volument 6y ago
      It used to be like that, but that's no longer happening. Last winter, there was no snow in Helsinki at all :(
      • stevekemp 6y ago
        Although there was snow and ice as late as May, just around the time I'd planted my carrot-seeds, potatoes, etc. Summer is short enough that there's basically only one growing season for food so that last minute cold-snap really ruined my planting plan!
    • repiret 6y ago
      That happens in Eastern Oregon too; and in most of the Great Basin.
    • zeckalpha 6y ago
      Here in Minnesota, I’ve seen snow every month except August. We had 10 inches two weeks ago. On the other hand, it was 87 degrees on my porch yesterday.
      • deleted 6y ago
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      • 6y ago
• suyash 6y ago
  What's the catch here?
  • cambalache 6y ago
    No catch, they only want to "capture" SV engineers. So if you work for Google in San Francisco and you convince your bosses you can work 3 months from Helsinki legally and hopefully for Finland form a company there or meet a Finn and bring them back to the US with you.
    • deleted 6y ago
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    • tarruda 6y ago
      > meet a Finn and bring them back to the US with you Can you elaborate on this part?
      • sulam 6y ago
        Perhaps trying to balance the “capture” of SV engineers? We wouldn’t want the world to fall over if the population balance got out of whack, right?
      • cambalache 6y ago
        Mr Johnny Boy, a Google engineer with 10 years of experience goes to Helsinki with this program, he loves the place but 3 months later he returns to San Francisco, 6 months later he quits Google and founds a start-up. He remembers about Linus, a young Finn who he met there and who is a OS wizard. He hires Linus as a his # 1 employee.2 years later the company is doing great so they open their European branch in... Helsinki.
  • dfrsol 6y ago
    You pay for everything including travel there, housing, etc.
    • 6y ago
• peter_l_downs 6y ago
  I just applied, thanks for posting this! I spent the summer of 2017 interning in Helsinki for Smartly (https://www.smartly.io/ https://www.smartly.io/) and had an amazing time. I've heard the winter is a little bit different, but I'm willing to try it out. For anyone else thinking about it -- don't be worried about the language barrier, everyone speaks English, and you can mostly pass as a native by mumbling, saying kiitos, and shrugging your shoulders.
  • tonymet 6y ago
    “A little different” in the way that a massage is a little different from a prostate exam
    • Sharlin 6y ago
      But which is which? A proper massage both takes longer and is more uncomfortable than a prostate exam.
  • mleonhard 6y ago
    How do Helsinki winters compare to Seattle winters?
    • ta988 6y ago
      Much colder and nights are also much longer it often come as a shock to people not used to it.
      • ecmascript 6y ago
        The good thing about that is that summer days are longer :)
        • ta988 6y ago
          Also it is a beautiful country, all those lakes, forests, northern lights, people that do not bother you with smalltalk...
• mensetmanusman 6y ago
  ‘ We’re not after your money but all about lasting relationships. ‘ Sounds legit
  • sudhirj 6y ago
    Might not be. The Nordic states seem rich enough already. Norway, for example, has a fund that makes all its citizens millionaires, so you do get richer if you join them. Can’t speak for Finland, but because it’s a welfare state you are going to get more than you give, at least until you start making serious money. I think they realise that immigration helps counter stagnation, especially if their population is aging and/or the birth rate is less than 2.
    • rendall 6y ago
      Not millionaires "In May 2018, it was worth about $195,000 per Norwegian citizen" ... and individuals don't have access to the money directly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Nor...
    • lxrbst 6y ago
      Norway is rich. They have oil. Their government is actually pretty decent with money also. Sweden is an older country and has been historically pretty wealthy also. Finland on the other hand... Well, we mostly have have trees and lakes. Our monetary policy consists of taking it up the behind from bigger countries, having sky high rates of taxes on everything, and finally, selling the few natural resources actually worth something to other foreign companies.
    • swebs 6y ago
      Norway is an extreme outlier due to their state controlled oil fund. You'd be better comparing them to Saudi Arabia than Finland. (Finland has no petroleum resources)
  • bulutsuzku 6y ago
    "We are after your fun, give us some feeling"
• jmspring 6y ago
  I was lucky enough to have a company funded stint in Helsinki some years ago. The tech culture is vibrant and interesting. Most everyone speaks English better than most in the US. It can also be a place where it's hard to make friends -- I still have a handful (former colleagues, etc) -- just cultural. I'll consider applying again as it would give me a fun way to expose my girlfriend and her kid (she already chats with a friend's son) to a country and city I enjoy. They are also interested in more exposure to Europe.
  • iamcreasy 6y ago
    Can you please elaborate more on why it is hard to make friends? Thanks!
    • Sharlin 6y ago
      Finns tend to be more on the introverted side of the spectrum and many of us prefer a few close friends over lots of casual acquaintances. Small talk is famously difficult to us, but the bright side of that is that we’re more comfortable just being quiet if there’s nothing to say. Honestly though many of us tend to try to be especially friendly to foreigners so as to avert the ”shy and reserved” stereotype. And for the most part Finnish friendliness is genuine, not faked or superficial.
      • jmspring 6y ago
        This exactly. That said, when you break through and alcohol is involved...there is still limited small talk ;)
    • eru 6y ago
      I would suspect Finns are less outgoing and more reserved?
      • bulutsuzku 6y ago
        Absolutely, if you love passion, fun, party, cool friends... Finland is not your country.
• trhway 6y ago
  Curiously - having trove of engineers around - Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Chech Republic, etc, not to mention the ones a bit farther like India and China, Finland still targets US West Coast. Some secret SV sauce I guess :)
  • pavlov 6y ago
    It’s fundamentally a networking program to make Finland better known in SV.
• rootbear 6y ago
  If I wasn’t so close to retirement, this would be tempting. I really liked Finland on my short visit a few years ago.
• throwaway13337 6y ago
  >We’re not after your money Paying very high income taxes and having a salary under half what you get in the states is at least buying the Finnish government one tesla a year. That said, it's almost worth it because Finland is a great place to live. It's just too bad you trade your own wealth stock pile for the possibility of getting in on that social welfare that may not pan out in the long run (most is not applicable to you as a foreigner in the prime of your life). As an American that worked in Denmark quite a while, I'll say it's a major trade off. Financially, I'm definitely poorer for having done so. But it was a terrific time in my life. I'd like to see some reduced taxes for foreigners not eligible for the services until they're proper and permanent.
  • ta988 6y ago
    But many things are less expensive, health, education...
    • dkdk8283 6y ago
      Which most people don’t need in their earning prime
      • cool_dude85 6y ago
        That's right, people don't need health care for themselves, or their kids, or their parents, in their earning prime. Neither do they need to pay educational expenses like private school or college. Wait a sec, actually, people famously need to pay for all those things in their earning prime! What was I thinking?
        • gautamcgoel 6y ago
          I think he was talking about a single person with no kids.
  • ta988 6y ago
    In U.S. as a foreigner you pay the same taxes as everybody and you also don't get all of the services. I don't believe taxes should be a-la-carte. They should just be more fair.
• dricornelius 6y ago
  None of the photos are taken in winter. Admiral Ackbar voice It's a trap!
  • fogihujy 6y ago
    For the record, Helsinki is a coastal city in the southern end of the country. It's about 10C there at the moment.
    • Sharlin 6y ago
      To be fair, a windy rainy winter in Helsinki can feel much harsher than a colder but calmer and snowier one farther north.
      • fogihujy 6y ago
        Definitely. I'd prefer a sunny day with -30C and no wind to a rainy and windy day with a temperature at 2C.
• jupiter90000 6y ago
  Did I miss something, is this an exception -- I thought they are not allowing Americans into Finland due to COVID-19?
• kpatrick 6y ago
  Hard to compete with Canada and the language is the same in most parts.
  • Jommi 6y ago
    It's less cold and snowy in Helsinki than most Canadian cities.
    • disconcision 6y ago
      Not sure this feels true morally, though perhaps it is technically depending on how you define and weight cities. Certainly the largest three cities in Canada (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal) are significantly warmer than Helsinki. Of the ten largest cities in Canada, only two (Calgary, Edmonton) are colder than Helsinki. It is true that you'll be contending with around 50-100% more snow, except for Vancouver or Victoria. But you'll also have much less daylight in the winter in Helsinki.
• projectileboy 6y ago
  Uh, did anyone else notice this offer expired on October 12?
  • PopeDotNinja 6y ago
    December, 10. It's DD-MM-YYYY formatting.
    • projectileboy 6y ago
      Hah hah, oh I’m a moron. Thank you for the clarification.
• VonGuard 6y ago
  Finland, Finland, Finland, the country where I'd quite like to be, eating breakfast or dinner, or snack lunch in the hall. Finland, Finland, Finland... Finland has it all.
• bulutsuzku 6y ago
  One girl told me: "Finland? What a trap!! They have a big country with everything set up, but cannot manage to reproduce humans...". I think she is somewhat right. In these "perfect" countries people is cold as ice, so you can expect to get bored to hell. There's a reason why Italians are fun, and nordics.... well, they aren't.
• deanclatworthy 6y ago
  Overall my experience in Helsinki has been hugely positive. I’ve been here now over a decade and have settled with work and family life. Work life balance is great, there’s a beautiful outdoors to enjoy all year, and the people are warm and kind, if not difficult to start with. All that said, there’s a lot of bullshit and hot air here in this thread: - public healthcare is great until you have something difficult to work with or non acute. Enjoy the months longs waiting times to see a dentist. - Yes, you can get by speaking English but your kid and partner might not. The tech industry employs foreigners here but there are countless people I know and hear of who end up here outside of the tech or sciences industry and cannot get work due to the language. Furthermore, don’t expect the same opportunities provided to Finnish speakers as you won’t get half the jobs at least. I work for an IT consultancy and only about 10-20% of client roles are available to me within the company. - Winter here is shit nowadays. It used to be cold and snowy. Now it’s just like slushy and miserable - Not all your services will be available in English. I have English banking for example but their department is slow and difficult to work with. Same with phoning utility services etc. - Yes the language is hard but the main problem is finding time to learn it. Trust me, you don’t want to spend your free time doing it or you’ll just work and study and not enjoy the lifestyle here. Don’t get me wrong. I love this place but look through the marketing and try and get some real experiences before you uproot your whole life. Happy to answer more questions here or privately (email through website in my profile).
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • trevyn 6y ago
    >I’ve been here now over a decade What is your level of Finnish now, and how did that progress over the time you've been there? Is English your first and only other language?
    • deanclatworthy 6y ago
      I cannot use it to communicate and I speak English & French (not for some years though). I can get by in restaurants and supermarkets but I stopped studying a year or two after moving here as I realised very quickly that I was spending my day's at work and my free time studying. If I had not done this, I would have definitely moved back home as I wouldn't have had time to appreciate the things I enjoy in life here. The government here doesn't do enough unless you're unemployed to get you to learn the language. The courses at university are hard to get into and in demand and there's not intensive courses shaped around the realistic work/life schedule of technology professionals. I don't know a single person who has learnt the language here to the point where they can use it professionally, who hasn't either a) studied intensively or b) been forced to learn it as part of being a student or c) had no choice (ended up outside of Helsinki in a place where English-language skills aren't as high).
• dhab 6y ago
  Why would you be the best choice to become a Finn for 90 days?
• kbos87 6y ago
  This might be (very) pedestrian, but the first question that comes to my mind - What is my work situation expected to be? Am I going there to work, or is the expectation that I’m independently wealthy, or joining up with a local employer?
• ensiferum 6y ago
  All fun & games until you realize: - The cost of living is on par with some of the most expensive cities while being a small town at the ass end of Siberia. - The incredibly aggressive Finnish income tax (and high tax on everything basically) means that no matter how much you earn at the end of the month you're basically broke - Helsinki features in the top 5 of world's coldest capital cities. In winter you can expect down to -30 and a whipping wind from the Baltic sea. Summers are only 2-3 months when it can be pleasant. On the plus side it's actually quite international. Some 20% of Helsinki residents are foreigners. So you can easily get by by not speaking Finnish. It's also very walkable and public transportation is adequate so no car needed (also that'd cost you an arm and a leg)
• newbateni 6y ago
  Why thry offer this without any cost?
• brailsafe 6y ago
  It seems a little unusual. I can't quite tell what the difference between this and just flying to the country and working remotely would be. According to the terms, you pay for accommodation and everything in the country, as well as your flight there and so on. Maybe it's just sort of an in for permanent residence?
• crehn 6y ago
  > #1 Happiest country in the world As a Finn, this is always funny to hear. I have no idea where they draw their conclusions from. :^)
  • howlgarnish 6y ago
    I think it means "has the least utterly miserable people" due to poverty etc. Incidentally, Finland's great rep for schools is similar: Finland doesn't do a great job with the best students, but it's quite good at supporting the weakest.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• multimedial 6y ago
  Happiest country in the world? According to my book, the Finns are rather known for their depressive outlook and 'reserved' mode of communication. Anything besides a hello is considered superficial chit-chat. This said, I'd rather prefer a sincere yet reserved Finn to an outgoing but superficial American.
• silasdavis 6y ago
  What happens after 90 days?
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• jillesvangurp 6y ago
  It's a nice cheeky smart thing to do by the Finns. I lived in Helsinki between 2005 and 2009. Overall, it's a great place to be and if you are tempted to give it a try, I'd say go for it. However, there are a few caveats: Four seasons is a joke. It's basically 50 shades of winter and autumn interrupted by about 3-4 months of weather worth enjoying outside. It can get warm and humid but typically not for very long. July and August are reliably nice mostly and you get basically ~20 hours of daylight around that time. June you can get lucky, anything else is an outlier. E.g. labor day celebrations (first of May) are a bit of a toss up on whether it will be nice enough or whether you still get snow. Mostly people just go outside anyway. But early spring kind of weather is the most generous thing you could say about the weather around that time: mostly not great but you get a few nice days once in a while. The weather is one thing; the darkness is another. The two combined make for a miserable season that pretty much lasts from September to April. On the tail end of that is where you can expect winter conditions but these days even that is not a guarantee in Helsinki. The last few winters have been very mild; which in Helsinki means it is dark, wet, and grey for 8 months. If there is any Snow, you'll hate it by April because it will have been melting and freezing up non stop since February. Most Finns don't wear their outdoor shoes indoors for this reason. Not everybody deals with darkness easily. I never had much issues with it but I definitely saw this affect others around me. Calling Finland the happiest place on earth deserves calling out its relatively high suicide rate (though a bit lower than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...). There are "happier" places in Europe with arguably a lot more economic baggage to justify higher suicide rates. It can be a happy place and it definitely was for me but not everyone is happy. Otherwise good to know is that if you are used to the byzantine bureaucracies of e.g. the US, Germany, etc. Finland is going to be a refreshing change. There's not a lot of it and what little there is is simple, efficient, and fair. Moving in and out of Finland were by far the easiest moves I've done (including domestic ones in the Netherlands, my home country). Basically, you enter the country, report to the police and then you are issued a person number and a Kela card which provides you access to things like healthcare and other things run by the government. That's pretty much it. Moving out amounted to a couple of phone calls to update my address. All, in English, of course, because nobody is expected to even be capable to learn enough Finnish and if anything Finns are super pragmatic when it comes to these things. I never had a need for Finnish interpreters to do anything. Even when officially it's not supported, you can always find English translations for e.g. tax forms and extensive documentation. I did my taxes using the Swedish forms (second official language, a bit easier to parse) and those translations without an accountant. In Germany where I currently live, I'm completely helpless without an accountant even though I can read German quite well. Quality of life is high. The VAT is high. The taxes actually aren't that high. If you are coming from e.g. California and add up all the little state, federal, council, and other taxes, it's ballpark going to be not very pretty (or so I'm told by friends who spent time there). Add healthcare to the mix and it gets brutal and that's before you take care of your pension (if at all). Finland sort of aggregates all of that and does not charge you separately for those things. If you do the math, it's not a bad deal for most people. You can get better deals elsewhere in Europe but a comparable lifestyle requires 5 figure salaries in the US because stuff just is universally expensive there.
• therusskiy 6y ago
  > The campaign is targeted for top talent in the US west coast, so primely the participants are chosen from the US. oh well...
• reynhaim 6y ago
  One thing I would like to address when it comes to higher taxes and lower pay than what you might get in the US is that to some degree, it's making the society a better place for the 90% who are not enjoying top salaries. Consider the situation of me and my wife, we got monetary aid for attending the free high quality universities. This had nothing to do with the wealth of our families, it's available for everyone. Just like all the education before that. We had our first child and bought a house in our 20s, easily done since one can get into work life without any debt. Oh, and we both had a year off work to spend with the said child. Expecting a second and planning to do the very same with her. We reside ~30 minutes from the city center that's accessible via affordable public transportation and even walking / cycling roads where cars are not allowed. The air is clean and these roads go through small forests and parks. When it comes to income, we're well off nowadays, probably in the 5% of top earning households (in our early 30s). But despite that, due to sensible city planning and good social policies, we have a lot of friends from different income brackets living next to us, having pretty similar quality of life as we do, who also bought their own apartments in their 20s and had kids. Our children go to the same kindergarten, will end up in the same schools, and they will do so with other kids from all walks of life. That's a real treasure in my opinion. Compared to the rest of the world, they are also quite safe in here. Some US cities look like warzones (statistically speaking) compared to our roughest neighbourhoods. I have an idea what the SV top earner life without kids looks like, it's pretty sweet I can admit that. Would I trade my life to have that? Never, if it means that my friends without jobs have to live on the street without healthcare. Life is just so much better when everyone has a decent standard of living.
  • taken_username 6y ago
    > we have a lot of friends from different income brackets living next to us, having pretty similar quality of life as we do, who also bought their own apartments in their 20s and had kids. This fact only is a reason to live in countries with proper social policies, and accept paying high taxes is not a bad thing
  • dougmwne 6y ago
    Life in the USA can be seriously depressing. There is a constant awareness of just how unequal everyone's opportunities were. There is a lot of visible poverty and crime. I have personally watched people eat bits of food out of the gutter in San Francisco. There's also a lot of animosity between the haves and the have-nots. Daily conversation with strangers can be a minefield. Does this person not have access to health care? Do they have hundreds of thousands in school or medical debt? Do they expect to ever be able to retire? Does their job even allow them any paid vacation? Is a comfortable and well-paid job hopelessly out of reach for them? Have they experienced racial discrimination in school or work? For many, many people, the psychic pain of all this inequality is too much and they retreat into bubbles of people very similar to themselves. Communities, schools, workplaces, and social networks can be shockingly segregated by race and class and people constantly get more unable to relate to the lives of others. A little extra money is worthless in comparison to all that. Please enjoy the egalitarian society that we will never know.
• timonoko 6y ago
  It might be advisable to think Finland as a small company, with its own language, laws and such sheiße. You would not invest your life, move the family and learn the language, if the company is run by evil clueless people. You should check the prospects of maintaining the reputed wellfare system. Then you might realize Finland is not part of Scandinavia or even Northern Europe much longer. It is becoming mediterranean, where life maybe less secure, but sun is always shining: https://photos.app.goo.gl/7iGWs3jawaMvq4H78 https://photos.app.goo.gl/7iGWs3jawaMvq4H78
• kioleanu 6y ago
  I'm reading some very interesting comments regarding learning the language. As an expat in a non-english speaking country myself, I have just one piece of advice: if you are considering moving to a foreign country and you don't speak the language, start learning it the moment you have taken the decision to move. Think of it like playing a game: no language = hard mode, no access to hidden quests, always stuck in the low tier. language = medium mode, access to all the maps, NPCs are friendlier. In my experience, based on how hard the language is, you will see great results after investing 500-600 hours into it.
• outime 6y ago
  I've been living in Finland for close to 10 years and I'm from Spain. Came to study an university degree and stayed after that. If you're pretty young and you work in FAANG then stay where you are and save money. When you get older and want to form a family then move here. Another option is if you're living in a poorer country and you want to pursue a degree (for EU people it's free) or have a decent tech job (stress is the lowest here, pay is good if you don't compare to FAANG). Spain is good to hang out and socialize but when it comes to work it's usually miserable so it was an easy decision for me since I can visit the country often while my daily life has been simplified a lot.
• aries1980 6y ago
  I'm wondering how families or even just couples cope with relocating for a short while. - What do you do with your belongings? Do you move them around? - Does someone takes care about your home while you are away? - What about pets? - What do you solve administrative tasks, e.g. you receive an official letter from govn't that you supposed to reply within a timeframe? How do you get to know the content of the letter? - What about your health insurance? Premiums that I encountered have a obscure logic on what is the procedure when you live at certain places for a longer period. - How do you handle taxes?
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• Cloudef 6y ago
  As a Finn that site does not convey typical finnish person at all. Finns don't brag, finns certainly aren't "happy". Then again Helsinki doesn't feel like Finland at all either.
• underlines 6y ago
  Finland and Helsinki seems great. But if you're willing to lower the #1's a bit, and go more to like #3's for most of these things, you can go to Zurich, Switzerland and easily get an USD 8K / month net salary for a marketing project manager job and USD 10-14K for a senior developer role. Not wanting to pitch countries against each other. All places have their advantages and disadvantages.
  • rihegher 6y ago
    Could you please elaborate on where to find 10-14K senior developer role opportunities in zurich? The ones I stumble upon are sensibly on a lower ballpark.
• finn_american 6y ago
  Lots about this already in other comment threads, but a first hand experience to share here. Let's cut to the chase: if you're in tech, and you're any good at what you do (you know who you are), you likely shouldn't waste your time on Helsinki or anywhere in Europe. Let's start with the money... In Helsinki as a software engineer you're looking at 3kEUR - 7kEUR monthly salary before tax. Only the flashiest software consulting firms will pay ultra senior people 6k (you'd better have 10+ years of experience to even broach the topic!). In Finland, if you make 6 kEUR a month you've "made it" and your colleagues will be openly jealous (yes, really). Stock options in Finland are a joke, you will receive perhaps a tenth of what you might anywhere in the US (if even), and they will be non-qualified options in American terms, there is no such thing as an ISO here. Taxes? Your all-in income tax will be 40-50% on that 6k income. Plus 24% VAT on anything you buy in a store. And as a completely medieval twist, food is exorbitantly expensive in Finland because the "reduced" VAT on that is 17% (by comparison in most civilized countries groceries are taxed at like... 1-2% if at all). If you want to convert what that means to SF terms, using the last year's USD/EUR FX rate and some cost of living stats from Numbeo, you'll find that you can multiply a Helsinki monthly salary in Euros by 12.5 and then again by 2.02 to arrive at a yearly USD salary in SF equivalent (there is a quirk about vacation money in Finland, hence the 12.5 instead of 12 months). So the Finnish tech pay scale scales to.... 75kUSD - 150kUSD if you were in SF, given FX and Cost of Living adjustments outlined above * In SF you're looking at 100kUSD - 250kUSD per year, and lower taxes across the board, realistically. In SF if you agree to a 120-150k salary, you're either quite early in your career or are one of the first employees at the company and receiving a handsome options grant. (and again, in Finland, you won't get nearly the same options, think missing-a-zero territory, really). Which brings us to our second point. Talent pool and work ethic. I've spent the last couple years hiring in tech extensively in Helsinki. I know the talent pool reasonably well. There are certainly some diamonds in the rough but on the whole it's very weak. Anyone who can get a job in the US has already done so and left, not just because of the massive economic incentive, but also because A-players want to work with other A-players. Smart motivated people want to work with other smart motivated people. The best want to learn from the best. It's as simple as that. Most of the people you'll work with in Finland are very nice, but more than a few are also keeping detailed records of their contractual 15 minute coffee breaks. It's a "punch in. do work. punch out." kinda place on the whole. There are obviously exceptions and I am exaggerating a bit to get the point across, but the overall vibe is that going the extra mile is rare and frowned upon (you wouldn't want to make everyone else look bad!). The same work ethic issues seem to apply to founders, who are often all too happy to put the brakes on their company to take a monthlong vacation in the summer. While that's great for work-life balance it's just not business smart if you're trying to get a startup off the ground. On the other hand, is it a nice place to live? Yes, yes it is. Stuff just works. You're not accosted by homeless people on your way in every day. You get the sense that perhaps those taxes are actually buying something useful and relevant.
• thomascovenant 6y ago
  I'm gonna dust off my old account here to say that sure, weather and language are a challenge but Finland is racist AF to POC. If you are a white guy from US/UK/WesternEU and stay in your own bubble, daily life is a peach even without knowing any Finnish.
• acd 6y ago
  If you have kids relocating to Scandinavia is a great choice for good work life balance. * Great public schools especially in Finland which as good rankings in Pisa. * Five weeks of Paid vacation every year * Paid parental leave. https://finland.fi/life-society/finland-remains-among-top-nations-in-pisa-education-survey/ https://finland.fi/life-society/finland-remains-among-top-na...
• deepstack 6y ago
  I stop reading after "Linkedin profile *" requirement. Anything that require that sounds like scam. Lindedin = Scam.
• momeunier 6y ago
  Yes and BTW, here are many job offers for developers in Helsinki in my company Smartly.io https://www.smartly.io/careers https://www.smartly.io/careers And if you want to join my team: https://www.smartly.io/open-positions/d373f2d2-edc9-4f0e-8912-7305f4447644?hsLang=en https://www.smartly.io/open-positions/d373f2d2-edc9-4f0e-891...
• simonebrunozzi 6y ago
  Smart marketing, bad timing. Asking to move in February 2021 might become problematic, as the covid spread in Europe is growing. If they picked April it would have been much better.
• ZekeTheLeek 6y ago
  How would this look for someone who is 40 years old with wife and 2 kids? I've now transitioned to tech leadership roles for the last 4 years after ~16 of being purely tech, but i'm afraid my relocation prospects have dwindled because of passing some arbitrary age barrier
  • 533474 6y ago
    I'd try if I were you. Now that you are in leadership positions, please, also do something about ageism in our industry :)
• renkku 6y ago
  Torille
• lbrito 6y ago
  There's a lot of people here commenting that significantly lower disposable income isn't really an issue because of social welfare. In general I agree with that claim, but talking specifically about pensions/retirement: how can you be so sure that 20, 30, 40 years down the road you'll get the same deal as retirees are getting today? The way I see it, most advanced democracies have some variation of an intergenerational pension system. These systems were planned in a post-war, high-growth context. A lot of countries are having some kind of trouble with pensions, resorting to increasing minimum retirement age (Portugal, UK, Russia come to mind -- I'm sure there are others) or otherwise trying to find alternative funding for increasingly expensive pensions. Again, I still think the trade is fair (less "personal" income in exchange for more social benefits, healthier and happier society), but I find the certainty people talk about pensions a bit odd.
• debbiebere 6y ago
  Does anybody know if Denmark or Sweden offer similar free 90-day relocation packages? Here's the one from Helsinki for comparison: https://www.helsinkibusinesshub.fi/90-day-finn/?fbclid=IwAR0MKHrN3fW_TSH__NEbrWEblMsq5JCzdEZ1NU_25T3B3sno45LhTj2M6RI https://www.helsinkibusinesshub.fi/90-day-finn/?fbclid=IwAR0... Thanks!
• debbiebere 6y ago
  Does anybody know if Denmark or Sweden have a similar free 90-day relocation package? Thanks!