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Much of American physical and civic infrastructure is like that of a 3rd world country. Most of the cases of extremely disrupted voting (such as 12 hour lines,

Much of American physical and civic infrastructure is like that of a 3rd world country. Most of the cases of extremely disrupted voting (such as 12 hour lines, mysteriously 'broken' voting machines in urban areas, or the 300,000 mail-in ballots that the postal system refused to deliver) are, however, intentional policies intended to reduce the turnout of Democratic voters. The US has a very long history of making it as hard as possible for non-conservatives to vote[0]; these irregularities are just the modern descendants of poll taxes and the Jim Crow laws. Politically, the US has much more in common with Central/South America, and contemporary Poland under Law and Justice, than it does with places like Spain or Germany. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_Unite...

9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
Both of the countries would laugh at the idea of voting without id, and getting id costs in Europe too and takes done time to get it done. I truly believe most of the Europeans would side with Republicans if they heard all the facts.
- Darmody 6y ago
  Yes. When I talked about this topic with some left leaning friends they were surprised that the requirement of an ID was taken as voter suppression in the US.
  - bleepblorp 6y ago
    The issue US left-leaning people have with voter ID laws is threefold: there's no documented problem with voter fraud that needs to be fixed through ID requirements, two, ID requirements are often imposed with the explicit intention of reducing voter turnout among the poor, and three, that there is allegedly a large swath of Americans who don't have valid identification and can't get it easily. Realize that in some states, the offices which produce identity documents for people who don't drive might only be open twelve days a year and are located in areas that are not accessible by public transit. For people at the bottom of the American income inequality pyramid, getting documentation might be something they can't afford, in terms of the time off work, taxi fares, and the costs of possible legal assistance. Seems to me the good faith solution is just to make sure everyone can get identification easily. However, the foundational issue is that voter ID requirements, combined with hard-to-get documentation, is a bad faith policy intended to keep poorer people from voting. Fix the 'bad faith' problem and everything else is trivial to put into place.
    - pc86 6y ago
      I'm against voter ID legislation but almost all these arguments are terrible. > there's no documented problem with voter fraud that needs to be fixed through ID requirements Maybe not, but that's not an argument against voter ID, it's an argument against one of the arguments for it. Slightly different. > ID requirements are often imposed with the explicit intention of reducing voter turnout among the poor Implicit, maybe, but do we have anyone on record saying they want voter ID to raise the median income of the average voter? Or that they don't want poor people to vote so we're going to make you bring in a driver's license? I buy that this is a side effect/consequence of voter ID, but not that it's explicit. > there is allegedly a large swath of Americans who don't have valid identification and can't get it easily Maybe, but like someone else said in many European jurisdictions you are required to show ID, it costs you money to get it, and you have a process to get it that takes time. > the offices which produce identity documents for people who don't drive might only be open twelve days a year and are located in areas that are not accessible by public transit I'm definitely calling BS on only being able to get a non-driver state ID one day every month, and most of the US is not accessible by public transit. We are not as densely populated as Europe and expecting a nationwide public transit network that reaches 100% (or even 50%, honestly) of our citizens is unrealistic. > For people at the bottom of the American income inequality pyramid, getting documentation might be something they can't afford This I actually agree with, and this[0; PDF] is actually a great breakdown of costs associated with getting an ID. It's absolutely a biased source the number are accurate and you can ignore the politicizing narrative. I agree that the good faith solution is making identification free for anyone who can actually prove their identity and needs the financial assistance. It's hard to argue against VID if anyone who can prove their identity gets an ID if they want it. [0] http://sharedprosperityphila.org/documents/Revised-ID-Waiver-Appendices-5.15.15.pdf http://sharedprosperityphila.org/documents/Revised-ID-Waiver...
      - quantified 6y ago
        If a state ID is required for voting, it should relatively free. Citizens should not be required to pay to vote.
bluecalm 6y ago
Well, elections in Poland go smoothly and there is little doubt they are fair. Votes are counted the same night (most of them) by the committees in all voting locations and sent upstream then. Even the opposition doesn't dispute the fairness of the election much. BTW, you need an ID to vote and you're responsible to update your official address or you won't be able to vote. The idea that you can do election without ID and with shady registration process sounds like someone trying to steal it to everyone here and I guess most of Europe. That we elect authoritarian national socialists and that division of power is a myth here due to our half-assed constitution is another matter. We are just pretty backwards as a society. PiS and their ideas are very popular here sadly.

9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago

Both of the countries would laugh at the idea of voting without id, and getting id costs in Europe too and takes done time to get it done. I truly believe most of the Europeans would side with Republicans if they heard all the facts.

Darmody 6y ago
Yes. When I talked about this topic with some left leaning friends they were surprised that the requirement of an ID was taken as voter suppression in the US.
- bleepblorp 6y ago
  The issue US left-leaning people have with voter ID laws is threefold: there's no documented problem with voter fraud that needs to be fixed through ID requirements, two, ID requirements are often imposed with the explicit intention of reducing voter turnout among the poor, and three, that there is allegedly a large swath of Americans who don't have valid identification and can't get it easily. Realize that in some states, the offices which produce identity documents for people who don't drive might only be open twelve days a year and are located in areas that are not accessible by public transit. For people at the bottom of the American income inequality pyramid, getting documentation might be something they can't afford, in terms of the time off work, taxi fares, and the costs of possible legal assistance. Seems to me the good faith solution is just to make sure everyone can get identification easily. However, the foundational issue is that voter ID requirements, combined with hard-to-get documentation, is a bad faith policy intended to keep poorer people from voting. Fix the 'bad faith' problem and everything else is trivial to put into place.
  - pc86 6y ago
    I'm against voter ID legislation but almost all these arguments are terrible. > there's no documented problem with voter fraud that needs to be fixed through ID requirements Maybe not, but that's not an argument against voter ID, it's an argument against one of the arguments for it. Slightly different. > ID requirements are often imposed with the explicit intention of reducing voter turnout among the poor Implicit, maybe, but do we have anyone on record saying they want voter ID to raise the median income of the average voter? Or that they don't want poor people to vote so we're going to make you bring in a driver's license? I buy that this is a side effect/consequence of voter ID, but not that it's explicit. > there is allegedly a large swath of Americans who don't have valid identification and can't get it easily Maybe, but like someone else said in many European jurisdictions you are required to show ID, it costs you money to get it, and you have a process to get it that takes time. > the offices which produce identity documents for people who don't drive might only be open twelve days a year and are located in areas that are not accessible by public transit I'm definitely calling BS on only being able to get a non-driver state ID one day every month, and most of the US is not accessible by public transit. We are not as densely populated as Europe and expecting a nationwide public transit network that reaches 100% (or even 50%, honestly) of our citizens is unrealistic. > For people at the bottom of the American income inequality pyramid, getting documentation might be something they can't afford This I actually agree with, and this[0; PDF] is actually a great breakdown of costs associated with getting an ID. It's absolutely a biased source the number are accurate and you can ignore the politicizing narrative. I agree that the good faith solution is making identification free for anyone who can actually prove their identity and needs the financial assistance. It's hard to argue against VID if anyone who can prove their identity gets an ID if they want it. [0] http://sharedprosperityphila.org/documents/Revised-ID-Waiver-Appendices-5.15.15.pdf http://sharedprosperityphila.org/documents/Revised-ID-Waiver...
    - quantified 6y ago
      If a state ID is required for voting, it should relatively free. Citizens should not be required to pay to vote.

bluecalm 6y ago

Well, elections in Poland go smoothly and there is little doubt they are fair. Votes are counted the same night (most of them) by the committees in all voting locations and sent upstream then. Even the opposition doesn't dispute the fairness of the election much. BTW, you need an ID to vote and you're responsible to update your official address or you won't be able to vote. The idea that you can do election without ID and with shady registration process sounds like someone trying to steal it to everyone here and I guess most of Europe. That we elect authoritarian national socialists and that division of power is a myth here due to our half-assed constitution is another matter. We are just pretty backwards as a society. PiS and their ideas are very popular here sadly.