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> The weird exterior many electric cars have is to lower the drag coefficient to increase range. In Europe vehicle footprint is a big deal and for a box truck,

> The weird exterior many electric cars have is to lower the drag coefficient to increase range. In Europe vehicle footprint is a big deal and for a box truck, minimizing vehicle footprint (and maximizing capacity) is likely more important than reducing drag. Particularly when you are looking at vehicles which will likely spend most of their time pushing 16+ tons and accelerating and decelerating to speeds around 30 MPH all day long. > you need serious charging infrastructure if you are going to be charging a Semi every 250 - 300 km. These trucks aren't designed for long haul/ cross country trips. There won't be charging every 250 km, they will go out, do their job, come home and park on a charger.

Gibbon1 6y ago
About 15 years ago I rebuilt an old golf cart. What I learned was in the late 90's better motor controls lead to a resurgence of electric golf carts especially for fleets. In most use cases electric is better logistically. The electric ones just run and run and they don't require handling gasoline and oil. It's really quick for an employee to plug the golf carts in at night. Pain in the ass to run around with gas cans. Not to mention having to store fuel on site. Reason conversion to electric happened earlier for golf carts was electric golf carts only have about 4-5kwh worth of batteries. Interestingly historically lead acid batteries are about $100-150 per kwr. Which is close to where automotive grade lion batteries are now. So no surprise that delivery trucks are converting to electric. They have the exact some scenario going on.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  A friend of mine runs a business servicing fork-lifts and similar vehicles. Mostly old propane or diesel powered fork lifts. When people ask him for recommendations about replacing a dead machine, he recommends they go electric due to reliability. It's a bit counter to his self-interests because they do require a fraction of the maintenance. He also owns several electric golf-carts he's tunes up for speed and light 4WD.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    When the Prius came out I looked at the drive train and it seemed obvious that the transmission on those things should and appears to be very reliable. It's a planetary gear set and two electric motors. Fixed gears and electric motors life spans are between 25,000 and 50,000 hours. Vs less than 10,000 hours for a piston engine. Everything about cars is designed around that fact that the engine is shot after 200-250,000 miles. Would not surprise me if eventually the expected life of an EV will end up being 2 to 3 times longer.
stoddur 6y ago
If that’s the case, they’ll make a single 300 km trip or day. I doubt that the business case for that is strong. With autonomous Semis on the horizon, the potential reduction in costs with the scaling of hauling in km / day will drive costs down. 300 km a day won’t be competitive in that space. For a buyer of semis, the cost of running one is arguably the most important factor. Producers need to focus on $ / km and there range is quite important (as well as charging infrastructure)
- bayindirh 6y ago
  > If that’s the case, they’ll make a single 300 km trip or day. I doubt that the business case for that is strong. Europe is much denser when comapared to US. You can do a lot within 300KM in Europe. Volvo openly states that the trucks are "to be used for regional transport and urban construction operations in Europe". The trucks in question and the possible range is very well suited to this kind of operation. Also, there's another important factor: Noise. Some European countries are more sensitive to noise than others. The Netherlands and Sweden comes to my mind. These trucks will be a huge win on that front because a 44 tonne truck is not exactly silent, especially under load.
  - stoddur 6y ago
    I live in Norway and I can tell you, 300 km will not suffice. The thing is, when you have other trucks on the market with more range (e.g. Tesla-Semi), and likely, much better charging infrastructure, why would you go with Volvo? Volvo has a way to go if they want to compete in this market. Noise wont have any effect as it is not government regulated. A buyer of Semis wont think twice about noice if $ / km is lower.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > If that’s the case, they’ll make a single 300 km trip or day. I doubt that the business case for that is strong. You might have heard of UPS? FedEx? Amazon? Maybe you've had a contractor work on your home or business? All of these businesses operate on less than 180 miles round trips per day typically inside the US. In Europe distances tend to be even shorter. Semis are by nature long haul. It's rare to see semis pulling 40 foot trailers through urban areas even in the US. Semis are usually limited to long haul or short haul freight from industrial or agricultural areas. The Volvo trucks are designed to operate locally and it's a huge market. > For a buyer of semis, the cost of running one is arguably the most important factor. There is definitely a market for semis—particularly in the US—but it's a vastly different market than what this targets.
jabl 6y ago
Footprint is at least partially due to regulations. EU regulations are much stricter with dimensions, whereas in the US the limit is more the weight. Technical development might have some impact as well. I remember as a kid many trucks needing bigger engines (e.g. sand or concrete transport) had the cab-behind-engine layout, but nowadays those are more or less completely gone. Maybe turbochargers and intercoolers allowed a sufficiently powerful engine in the cab-above-engine layout?
- Gwypaas 6y ago
  American trucks are actually lighter than European. 36 tons compared to 40 or 44 tons for most of Europe. The entire Nordics allow 25m (83 ft) trucks up to 60 tons.

Gibbon1 6y ago

About 15 years ago I rebuilt an old golf cart. What I learned was in the late 90's better motor controls lead to a resurgence of electric golf carts especially for fleets. In most use cases electric is better logistically. The electric ones just run and run and they don't require handling gasoline and oil. It's really quick for an employee to plug the golf carts in at night. Pain in the ass to run around with gas cans. Not to mention having to store fuel on site. Reason conversion to electric happened earlier for golf carts was electric golf carts only have about 4-5kwh worth of batteries. Interestingly historically lead acid batteries are about $100-150 per kwr. Which is close to where automotive grade lion batteries are now. So no surprise that delivery trucks are converting to electric. They have the exact some scenario going on.

ogre_codes 6y ago
A friend of mine runs a business servicing fork-lifts and similar vehicles. Mostly old propane or diesel powered fork lifts. When people ask him for recommendations about replacing a dead machine, he recommends they go electric due to reliability. It's a bit counter to his self-interests because they do require a fraction of the maintenance. He also owns several electric golf-carts he's tunes up for speed and light 4WD.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  When the Prius came out I looked at the drive train and it seemed obvious that the transmission on those things should and appears to be very reliable. It's a planetary gear set and two electric motors. Fixed gears and electric motors life spans are between 25,000 and 50,000 hours. Vs less than 10,000 hours for a piston engine. Everything about cars is designed around that fact that the engine is shot after 200-250,000 miles. Would not surprise me if eventually the expected life of an EV will end up being 2 to 3 times longer.

stoddur 6y ago

If that’s the case, they’ll make a single 300 km trip or day. I doubt that the business case for that is strong. With autonomous Semis on the horizon, the potential reduction in costs with the scaling of hauling in km / day will drive costs down. 300 km a day won’t be competitive in that space. For a buyer of semis, the cost of running one is arguably the most important factor. Producers need to focus on $ / km and there range is quite important (as well as charging infrastructure)

bayindirh 6y ago
> If that’s the case, they’ll make a single 300 km trip or day. I doubt that the business case for that is strong. Europe is much denser when comapared to US. You can do a lot within 300KM in Europe. Volvo openly states that the trucks are "to be used for regional transport and urban construction operations in Europe". The trucks in question and the possible range is very well suited to this kind of operation. Also, there's another important factor: Noise. Some European countries are more sensitive to noise than others. The Netherlands and Sweden comes to my mind. These trucks will be a huge win on that front because a 44 tonne truck is not exactly silent, especially under load.
- stoddur 6y ago
  I live in Norway and I can tell you, 300 km will not suffice. The thing is, when you have other trucks on the market with more range (e.g. Tesla-Semi), and likely, much better charging infrastructure, why would you go with Volvo? Volvo has a way to go if they want to compete in this market. Noise wont have any effect as it is not government regulated. A buyer of Semis wont think twice about noice if $ / km is lower.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> If that’s the case, they’ll make a single 300 km trip or day. I doubt that the business case for that is strong. You might have heard of UPS? FedEx? Amazon? Maybe you've had a contractor work on your home or business? All of these businesses operate on less than 180 miles round trips per day typically inside the US. In Europe distances tend to be even shorter. Semis are by nature long haul. It's rare to see semis pulling 40 foot trailers through urban areas even in the US. Semis are usually limited to long haul or short haul freight from industrial or agricultural areas. The Volvo trucks are designed to operate locally and it's a huge market. > For a buyer of semis, the cost of running one is arguably the most important factor. There is definitely a market for semis—particularly in the US—but it's a vastly different market than what this targets.

jabl 6y ago

Footprint is at least partially due to regulations. EU regulations are much stricter with dimensions, whereas in the US the limit is more the weight. Technical development might have some impact as well. I remember as a kid many trucks needing bigger engines (e.g. sand or concrete transport) had the cab-behind-engine layout, but nowadays those are more or less completely gone. Maybe turbochargers and intercoolers allowed a sufficiently powerful engine in the cab-above-engine layout?

Gwypaas 6y ago
American trucks are actually lighter than European. 36 tons compared to 40 or 44 tons for most of Europe. The entire Nordics allow 25m (83 ft) trucks up to 60 tons.