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Wow AMD is killing intel in the performance category. I wonder if Intel will have its core2duo chip coming up sometime soon. This is very similar to athlon64 pl

Wow AMD is killing intel in the performance category. I wonder if Intel will have its core2duo chip coming up sometime soon. This is very similar to athlon64 play a decade ago. However with TSMC AMD will have the manufacturing advantage.

api 6y ago
The process matters a whole lot. You can see this with 14nm vs 10nm Intel chips and their power characteristics. The Zen3 core is excellent but if they were forced to use 14nm it would be far less competitive in terms of core count, cache, power, and max clock rate.
Zenst 6y ago
Whlst the TSMC factor has done wonders for AMD now that TSMC overtook Intel. One advantage Intel has still is costs/control of their node and would be very interesting to see production costs compared as might be that Intel has more margin in production they can shave. Though they have stumbled keeping up with node progress and that has clearly been a cornerstone in the hurt they are getting in the market and AMD have capitalised upon that like champs. Will Intel bring out a new architecture that will rise above all this as they did with the Core2Duo (actually typing this upon one of those cores), well - they need to. But for me the shift on CPU's does seem to be large and faster cache access and latency. Say Intel released the same chips but added a very large SRAM layer - that for some applications would swing things for sure, not cheap but again - Intel controls and runs their own fabs, and whilst AMD could equally just do that, would the costs in them doing that with TSMC be just as comparable? There is money to be made in fabricating or TSMC would not be doing so well financially of all this. But that is a cost/income that Intel are tapped into with their own fabs. However it pans, competition has been good for the desktop x86 folks and so glad AMD back in the game and going strong.
- Covzire 6y ago
  Intel could also optimize their high end enthusiast dies by removing iGPUs, since virtually nobody uses or wants them.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Godel_unicode 6y ago
    And then they could call them kf, and release them last year! https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/190887/intel-core-i9-9900kf-processor-16m-cache-up-to-5-00-ghz.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/190887/...
    - kasabali 6y ago
      AFAIK it still has igpu, just non-functional and wasting space
      - Zenst 6y ago
        Not as clear-cut on wasting space. Maybe those chips had a defective GPU area and why disabled - would be good to get clarity upon that. The other aspect is that they will act as a heat spreader at the die level, so whilst not best use of space - given all the factors - not something could easily dismiss and better a waste of space than a waste of a chip who's only crime was to have a non-functioning GPU upon it.
        kasabali 6y ago
        That's not the point. iGPU takes most of the die space. Parents point is it'd be a better end product for enthusiasts had they opt to not put it there in the first place.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Intel's high-end desktop series, the Cascade Lake Xeon W, already lacks graphics.
- sroussey 6y ago
  One AMD advantage is that it’s manufacturing basically a single part, not the large options of Intel. One part binned and combined into chiplet designs. 8 core to 64 core, its all the same part (1, 2, 4, or 8 of them). There is likely cost savings to this strategy as well. I imagine they will do that on the GPU side as well at some point.
  - selectodude 6y ago
    AMD's yields are going to be better too since it's not a monolithic core.
  - doikor 6y ago
    Also gives them a lot of flexibility with binning which should give them excellent yields. The ones that don't have full 8 (well enough) working cores just use them for 5600X (6 core) or 5900X (12 cores) if there is 6 or 7 good cores. The fully working chiplets you can bin for 5800X or 5950X (or for threadripper/Epyc for the very best ones)
    - maximilianburke 6y ago
      Additionally the I/O die on the Ryzen chiplets also gets reused as the X570 chipset, also I believe based on binning.
      - bcrl 6y ago
        Bonus: AMD satisfies their contract with Global Foundries by including one I/O die manufactured by GF with every CPU sold.
    - fomine3 6y ago
      Intel also uses chip with defected cores for lower core SKUs.
      - doikor 6y ago
        Yes but Intel can't take 2 (or 4 or 8 or whatever number you want) of defective parts and sell it as a high end part. AMD can make a 5900X or a Threadripper/Epyc out of 6 core chiplets "defective". As Intel chips are one big monolithic designs they can't make a 6 core consumer desktop CPU out of a broken 24 or 28 core Xenon chip.
- kllrnohj 6y ago
  > Say Intel released the same chips but added a very large SRAM layer - that for some applications would swing things for sure, not cheap but again Which they did for Broadwell but then immediately abandoned it. Anandtech recently did a retrospective on it: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16195/a-broadwell-retrospective-review-in-2020-is-edram-still-worth-it https://www.anandtech.com/show/16195/a-broadwell-retrospecti... (although at the time of writing this Anandtech's site is dead so pop that into your cached lookup of choice)
  - mastax 6y ago
    That's talking about eDRAM which has different trade-offs due to increased latency vs L3.
  - bcrl 6y ago
    Intel did perform internal studies on the effect of 3d stacking on CPU layouts. For things like caches the reduction in delay caused by adding another layer is significant. AMD had to increase latency of the L3 cache in Zen 3 by 7 cycles as a trade-off for the increased size. If they were able to stack SRAM with another layer of transistors placed vertically, that latency penalty could be reduced.
- sroussey 6y ago
  Zen4 might bring on-chiplet SRAM cache using a cheaper node
  - andy_ppp 6y ago
    Is that just a rumour or are ITK?
  - wmf 6y ago
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Zen2/3 already have 32MB L3 SRAM on each chiplet. And we know TSMC 5nm is more expensive than 7nm.
    - sroussey 6y ago
      I mean on the IO die, not the processor one (or maybe a new one). 256MB L4 Infinity Cache for all the CPUs in the package. It doesn’t need to be on 5nm or 7nm. It can be on 14nm. But still on package. (I should have said on package, not on-chiplet, too late to edit)
      - temac 6y ago
        Can you really do an enormous SRAM on a bigger node without it occupying a huge surface? Would 14nm be cheap enough for that to be interesting? If so, why not also use it for other big structures?
        rbanffy 6y ago
        IBM does that on mainframes with DRAM as L4. A cluster of four sockets has almost a gigabyte of memory in a separate chip with analogous function as AMD's IO die (and that attaches to the memory modules). Of course, these are enormous and ridiculously expensive dies.
        bcrl 6y ago
        But eDRAM uses less power than SRAM. A large SRAM on an older process would have a substantial power penalty.
tibbydudeza 6y ago
Intel does not have a Pentium M design as a backup plan like the last time when the P4 mobile and later desktop efforts reached a dead end.
- jagger27 6y ago
  That we know of, anyway. Jim Keller only just left a few months ago so who knows what’s in the architectural pipeline for the next decade.
  - tibbydudeza 6y ago
    You talking about his Intel stint which was cut short for "personal" reasons ???. Afaik he is not a chip architect anymore - more of organizing engineering teams to perform to their best ability and asking the right questions. The AMD guy who designed Zen architecture was also responsible for the ill-fated Bulldozer design.
    - wtallis 6y ago
      > You talking about his Intel stint which was cut short for "personal" reasons ???. Those scare quotes are kinda rude, and whatever you're trying to insinuate with them is wrong.
      - tibbydudeza 6y ago
        Rude ???. Clearly a lame PR explanation considering his high profile stature at Intel (he is going to save us) and the suddenness of it all. https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/311664-intels-jim-keller-leaves-the-company-for-personal-reasons https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/311664-intels-jim-keller... I see they used single quotes .. my bad.
        muro 6y ago
        Family, health, there is lots that can happen in life, where work is no longer a priority. Just because it's a common euphemism for something more, doesn't mean it has the be so in this case. Given his great track record, something bad probably happened in his life.
zanny 6y ago
Intel's out is to actually bring their 7nm node to market. Until then they are a sinking ship and they are certainly well aware of that. 10nm was / is a disaster failure and even if could somehow fenagle it into a usable state by next year will be trounced by tsmc 5nm zen 4. They need to cut their losses and leapfrog or they will stay technologically irrelevant going forward.
proverbialbunny 6y ago
When AMD 64 came out it killed the P3 and P4 because of its IO enhancements. By moving the northbridge into the CPU no longer did desktop cpus feel sluggish and no longer would they lock up in IO based tasks. It was a large jump in the desktop space. (Before AMD64 copying a file on your hard drive would run your cpu at 100%. You couldn't multi task and read the news while burning a CD, and so on.) Intel responded later with the Core 2 Duo, which not only met AMD on its playing field but beat it. For anyone who is wondering how Intel did this, here is an in depth article on the topic: https://www.anandtech.com/print/10525/ten-year-anniversary-of-core-2-duo-and-conroe-moores-law-is-dead-long-live-moores-law https://www.anandtech.com/print/10525/ten-year-anniversary-o...
- monocasa 6y ago
  The northbridge absolutely would not cause your CPU to lock up on I/O based tasks, and contained an arbiter to balance CPU and I/O initiated memory requests. The CD burner issues were because they required hard real time control to not screw the disc up.
  - kasabali 6y ago
    To add that Core 2 (which was given as an example in the parent post) was still using the traditional north bridge design.
    - proverbialbunny 6y ago
      The AMD 64 did not, which is what gave it its large speed boost. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1098/6 https://www.anandtech.com/show/1098/6

api 6y ago

The process matters a whole lot. You can see this with 14nm vs 10nm Intel chips and their power characteristics. The Zen3 core is excellent but if they were forced to use 14nm it would be far less competitive in terms of core count, cache, power, and max clock rate.

Zenst 6y ago

Whlst the TSMC factor has done wonders for AMD now that TSMC overtook Intel. One advantage Intel has still is costs/control of their node and would be very interesting to see production costs compared as might be that Intel has more margin in production they can shave. Though they have stumbled keeping up with node progress and that has clearly been a cornerstone in the hurt they are getting in the market and AMD have capitalised upon that like champs. Will Intel bring out a new architecture that will rise above all this as they did with the Core2Duo (actually typing this upon one of those cores), well - they need to. But for me the shift on CPU's does seem to be large and faster cache access and latency. Say Intel released the same chips but added a very large SRAM layer - that for some applications would swing things for sure, not cheap but again - Intel controls and runs their own fabs, and whilst AMD could equally just do that, would the costs in them doing that with TSMC be just as comparable? There is money to be made in fabricating or TSMC would not be doing so well financially of all this. But that is a cost/income that Intel are tapped into with their own fabs. However it pans, competition has been good for the desktop x86 folks and so glad AMD back in the game and going strong.

Covzire 6y ago
Intel could also optimize their high end enthusiast dies by removing iGPUs, since virtually nobody uses or wants them.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Godel_unicode 6y ago
  And then they could call them kf, and release them last year! https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/190887/intel-core-i9-9900kf-processor-16m-cache-up-to-5-00-ghz.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/190887/...
  - kasabali 6y ago
    AFAIK it still has igpu, just non-functional and wasting space
    - Zenst 6y ago
      Not as clear-cut on wasting space. Maybe those chips had a defective GPU area and why disabled - would be good to get clarity upon that. The other aspect is that they will act as a heat spreader at the die level, so whilst not best use of space - given all the factors - not something could easily dismiss and better a waste of space than a waste of a chip who's only crime was to have a non-functioning GPU upon it.
      - kasabali 6y ago
        That's not the point. iGPU takes most of the die space. Parents point is it'd be a better end product for enthusiasts had they opt to not put it there in the first place.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  Intel's high-end desktop series, the Cascade Lake Xeon W, already lacks graphics.
sroussey 6y ago
One AMD advantage is that it’s manufacturing basically a single part, not the large options of Intel. One part binned and combined into chiplet designs. 8 core to 64 core, its all the same part (1, 2, 4, or 8 of them). There is likely cost savings to this strategy as well. I imagine they will do that on the GPU side as well at some point.
- selectodude 6y ago
  AMD's yields are going to be better too since it's not a monolithic core.
- doikor 6y ago
  Also gives them a lot of flexibility with binning which should give them excellent yields. The ones that don't have full 8 (well enough) working cores just use them for 5600X (6 core) or 5900X (12 cores) if there is 6 or 7 good cores. The fully working chiplets you can bin for 5800X or 5950X (or for threadripper/Epyc for the very best ones)
  - maximilianburke 6y ago
    Additionally the I/O die on the Ryzen chiplets also gets reused as the X570 chipset, also I believe based on binning.
    - bcrl 6y ago
      Bonus: AMD satisfies their contract with Global Foundries by including one I/O die manufactured by GF with every CPU sold.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    Intel also uses chip with defected cores for lower core SKUs.
    - doikor 6y ago
      Yes but Intel can't take 2 (or 4 or 8 or whatever number you want) of defective parts and sell it as a high end part. AMD can make a 5900X or a Threadripper/Epyc out of 6 core chiplets "defective". As Intel chips are one big monolithic designs they can't make a 6 core consumer desktop CPU out of a broken 24 or 28 core Xenon chip.
kllrnohj 6y ago
> Say Intel released the same chips but added a very large SRAM layer - that for some applications would swing things for sure, not cheap but again Which they did for Broadwell but then immediately abandoned it. Anandtech recently did a retrospective on it: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16195/a-broadwell-retrospective-review-in-2020-is-edram-still-worth-it https://www.anandtech.com/show/16195/a-broadwell-retrospecti... (although at the time of writing this Anandtech's site is dead so pop that into your cached lookup of choice)
- mastax 6y ago
  That's talking about eDRAM which has different trade-offs due to increased latency vs L3.
- bcrl 6y ago
  Intel did perform internal studies on the effect of 3d stacking on CPU layouts. For things like caches the reduction in delay caused by adding another layer is significant. AMD had to increase latency of the L3 cache in Zen 3 by 7 cycles as a trade-off for the increased size. If they were able to stack SRAM with another layer of transistors placed vertically, that latency penalty could be reduced.
sroussey 6y ago
Zen4 might bring on-chiplet SRAM cache using a cheaper node
- andy_ppp 6y ago
  Is that just a rumour or are ITK?
- wmf 6y ago
  I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Zen2/3 already have 32MB L3 SRAM on each chiplet. And we know TSMC 5nm is more expensive than 7nm.
  - sroussey 6y ago
    I mean on the IO die, not the processor one (or maybe a new one). 256MB L4 Infinity Cache for all the CPUs in the package. It doesn’t need to be on 5nm or 7nm. It can be on 14nm. But still on package. (I should have said on package, not on-chiplet, too late to edit)
    - temac 6y ago
      Can you really do an enormous SRAM on a bigger node without it occupying a huge surface? Would 14nm be cheap enough for that to be interesting? If so, why not also use it for other big structures?
      - rbanffy 6y ago
        IBM does that on mainframes with DRAM as L4. A cluster of four sockets has almost a gigabyte of memory in a separate chip with analogous function as AMD's IO die (and that attaches to the memory modules). Of course, these are enormous and ridiculously expensive dies.
        bcrl 6y ago
        But eDRAM uses less power than SRAM. A large SRAM on an older process would have a substantial power penalty.

tibbydudeza 6y ago

Intel does not have a Pentium M design as a backup plan like the last time when the P4 mobile and later desktop efforts reached a dead end.

jagger27 6y ago
That we know of, anyway. Jim Keller only just left a few months ago so who knows what’s in the architectural pipeline for the next decade.
- tibbydudeza 6y ago
  You talking about his Intel stint which was cut short for "personal" reasons ???. Afaik he is not a chip architect anymore - more of organizing engineering teams to perform to their best ability and asking the right questions. The AMD guy who designed Zen architecture was also responsible for the ill-fated Bulldozer design.
  - wtallis 6y ago
    > You talking about his Intel stint which was cut short for "personal" reasons ???. Those scare quotes are kinda rude, and whatever you're trying to insinuate with them is wrong.
    - tibbydudeza 6y ago
      Rude ???. Clearly a lame PR explanation considering his high profile stature at Intel (he is going to save us) and the suddenness of it all. https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/311664-intels-jim-keller-leaves-the-company-for-personal-reasons https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/311664-intels-jim-keller... I see they used single quotes .. my bad.
      - muro 6y ago
        Family, health, there is lots that can happen in life, where work is no longer a priority. Just because it's a common euphemism for something more, doesn't mean it has the be so in this case. Given his great track record, something bad probably happened in his life.

zanny 6y ago

Intel's out is to actually bring their 7nm node to market. Until then they are a sinking ship and they are certainly well aware of that. 10nm was / is a disaster failure and even if could somehow fenagle it into a usable state by next year will be trounced by tsmc 5nm zen 4. They need to cut their losses and leapfrog or they will stay technologically irrelevant going forward.

proverbialbunny 6y ago

When AMD 64 came out it killed the P3 and P4 because of its IO enhancements. By moving the northbridge into the CPU no longer did desktop cpus feel sluggish and no longer would they lock up in IO based tasks. It was a large jump in the desktop space. (Before AMD64 copying a file on your hard drive would run your cpu at 100%. You couldn't multi task and read the news while burning a CD, and so on.) Intel responded later with the Core 2 Duo, which not only met AMD on its playing field but beat it. For anyone who is wondering how Intel did this, here is an in depth article on the topic: https://www.anandtech.com/print/10525/ten-year-anniversary-of-core-2-duo-and-conroe-moores-law-is-dead-long-live-moores-law https://www.anandtech.com/print/10525/ten-year-anniversary-o...

monocasa 6y ago
The northbridge absolutely would not cause your CPU to lock up on I/O based tasks, and contained an arbiter to balance CPU and I/O initiated memory requests. The CD burner issues were because they required hard real time control to not screw the disc up.
- kasabali 6y ago
  To add that Core 2 (which was given as an example in the parent post) was still using the traditional north bridge design.
  - proverbialbunny 6y ago
    The AMD 64 did not, which is what gave it its large speed boost. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1098/6 https://www.anandtech.com/show/1098/6