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New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression
- beepboopbeep 6y ago+ With (exceptionally) long term, positive effects when coupled with therapy before, during, and after strong psychedelic trips. Ultimately, the research results (and anecdotal evidence) for psilocybin are too great to ignore. The next question is - How does it get legalized (which we're seeing the stirrings of) and who gets access to it and how when it is?
- okareaman 6y agoJust passed in Oregon: Oregon Measure 109. Legalize Psilocybin Permits licensed service providers to administer psilocybin-producing mushroom and fungi products to individuals 21 years of age or older.
- beepboopbeep 6y agoHere's my issue with that: Who are the service providers of the treatment and what training have they taken to do so? There is some available through folks who did original research (eg: John Hopkins) and now do talk and demo circuits but otherwise it's all largely undefined. I'm paranoid of what this might lead to without strong community standards and ethics. A good first step, but lets hope it doesn't ruin it for others.
- okareaman 6y agoI believe they are taking two years to settle these questions
- st1x7 6y agoIt's undefined because it's just getting started. You can't make a substance legal and have all the necessary training and infrastructure available from day 1.
- mdifrgechd 6y agoSo previously they were illegal and you bought dried mushrooms from some guy in a pool hall (maybe I'm dating myself). Its hard to imagine that legalizing them is a step back. People automatically see legalization as an excuse for more bureaucracy and regulation - how about starting with the premise that the world didnt end while people bought it illegally, and ease in a minimal way to ensure safety and quality, which must be well understood for all the other foods and natural products already sold, instead of doing the regulatory power grab of "oh we need a whole new framework!"
- giantg2 6y agoI forget. This done undersupervision, right? They aren't allowed to prescribe and send them home if I remember correctly.
- heavyset_go 6y agoInitiative 81[1] passed in DC. Still not legal but it looks like the will is there. [1] https://decrimnaturedc.org/initiative-81/ https://decrimnaturedc.org/initiative-81/
- b34r 6y agoAs someone with major depression, it helps temporarily but doesn’t last.
- okareaman 6y agoNo individual therapy lasted to cure my major depression, including mushrooms. It was a combination of therapies.
- lrem 6y agoDoes it last long enough that you get a period of normal functioning?
- invisiblerobot 6y agoWorks for mine. I need to take a heroic dose (5 gr) and then it lasts about 3 months before I need to again.
- ajkjk 6y agoIsn't that what the parent post said? Works temporarily but doesn't last?
- gopalv 6y ago> Works temporarily but doesn't last? I'd have assumed it meant a tolerance would kick in after a few rounds. 1 reset day out of every 100 does sound achievable/possible even with clinical administration, but needing it every 3 days wouldn't be.
- jack_pp 6y agoConsidering there's no evidence it's toxic and you can do it every month because that's how long it takes for your tolerance to wear off, 3 months is a lot of time. Consider normal SSRIs where you feel like crap for a month, try N more (which could mean many more months) until you find one that suits you, then have side-effects, then try to get off them so that's another couple of months of misery. That's countless doses, money, time spent in misery vs one day of mushrooms every 3 months. Normal psych meds are to be avoided at all costs and only be used if absolutely necessary, after you have tried everything else; atleast in my opinion.
- scarmig 6y agoI'm curious if we have insights into whether psychedelics' mental health effects work by changing something by a direct chemical interaction, or if they work by just encouraging the patient to rewire their own brain while tripping. If e.g. you administered psychedelics on someone in an induced coma, would you see the same benefit?
- jychang 6y agoIIRC there were studies done to that effect with subjects in comas with various psychedelics, where there were no effects. Regard this with a large grain of salt though, I read that somewhere a long time ago and don't have a source rn.
- Gene_Parmesan 6y agoSounds like an informed consent nightmare. How could this even happen? This wasn't even close to my area of legal practice though so it's I guess possible for there to be some sort of workaround. Looks like a potentially interesting study here: https://jme.bmj.com/content/45/5/299 https://jme.bmj.com/content/45/5/299
- bccdee 6y agoI imagine next-of-kin have power of attorney when it comes to medical treatments done on comatose patients. That would probably include medical trials.
- smcleod 6y agoFor me, it made me lose my "ego" to a certain extent during the experiences, I was able to feel some (what I now know are very important) emotions I was struggling to feel or accept for many, many years after trying many different types of therapy and medicines. Once I was able to feel and confront those emotions and discover what had me so wound up, upset and sad - I was finally able to start the process of healing.
- PragmaticPulp 6y agoThis study wasn't just about psilocybin. The patients received 11 hours of professional therapy. The psilocybin was used as an adjunct. The theory is that psilocybin increases suggestibility and openness to new ideas, making the therapy easier to integrate. Note that increasing suggestibility isn't a universally positive trait, especially for people doing ad-hoc dosing alone without therapy. In fact, it's uncommon to hear "bad trip" stories where people end up in prolonged depressive or anxious episodes following a trip. There is no evidence here that taking psychedelics without therapy is positive for patients, so it's extremely unlikely that dosing someone who is sedated or in a coma would have any effect.
- cpncrunch 6y ago>New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression Nope, it doesn't. The study wasn't placebo controlled. The placebo effect will have a large effect in a study like this, so we have no idea what effect the psilocybin had.
- LegitShady 6y agoI wonder about posts with studies like these when just earlier there was one about how to read scientific papers.
- modeless 6y agoWhat kind of placebo could you use to stand in for a treatment that normally has immediate and obvious side effects like this one?
- hristov 6y agoYou can just use the standard sugar pill placebo. But of course make sure the placebo group get the same treatment of lying on a couch and listening to music with their eyes closed. I am sure the psychedelic effects of shrooms would increase the placebo effect greatly, so sugar pill placebo might not correctly show the placebo effect, but it is a start.
- ramraj07 6y agoHow about the combination of the drug and the experience is the treatment? In that case the placebo is telling someone with depression to sign up and stay at home. Which is still important.
- jolmg 6y ago> so sugar pill placebo might not correctly show the placebo effect The lack of good placebo options seems to be why they chose not to have a placebo. The paper mentions: > Although placebo and active treatment controlled designs are widely used in therapeutic trials, they too have limitations owing to the highly discriminable effects of psilocybin.
- bovermyer 6y agoI did not expect to see Tim Ferriss's name in an article like this. Interesting.
- LatteLazy 6y agoYeah. I only caught a few comments from him and then when I started go ogling it, he's actually pretty big both in funding this work and in fund raising and raising the profile of it. He had (has?) pretty bad depression so...
- me_smith 6y agoYea. Tim Ferriss has put a lot of effort (and money) into this type of research. He has brought on several guests on his podcast to discuss this subject. He has also talked about his past depression which, I believe, drives his passion towards this work.
- goldenkey 6y agoWe have to be careful to prescribe these psychotropic substances willy-nilly to the general population. Cannabis has always initially worked well for me, but 1-2 months into using it, it causes schizophrenic/manic episodes. I cannot touch it anymore because of the possible permanent damage it could do.
- howlgarnish 6y agoPsychedelics have been researched since the 1960s, despite formidable legal obstacles. I'm not sure how much more "careful" you want them to be.
- goldenkey 6y agoCannabis is pretty heavily lobbied. I've never seen any labels indicating it can cause manic episodes on any packages. I just don't want to see that happen with anything else. We should inform people of potential side effects.
- wavefunction 6y agoMaking medical claims positive or negative invites the presence of the FDA.
- a4444f 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children
- fakeacct112020 6y agoI believe many who have taken psilocybin for medical reasons would agree: they would never take it again. I did not find it not habit forming. (edited to make clear my opinion and not facts)
- charlieflowers 6y agoWhat do you mean? Can you elaborate?
- ckosidows 6y agoAs hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt like there was only one or two things holding me up. When I felt like nobody really understood what I was going through or I couldn't open up to others. From what I understand, tripping on psilocybin inhibits your DMN, which apparently is the part of your brain most responsible for your sense of self and makes you feel less like there is a barrier between you and the rest of the universe. If certain medicines help people cope with depression, I definitely don't want to detract from the progress those medicines have provided to those people. But does it go against prevailing wisdom to think the only cure to depression is other people? And that, if psilocybin gets people to connect more, it can be part of the cure. But that no drug, in and of itself, can "cure" depression? Just thinking out loud. Please go easy on me. I'm just curious and want to know more.
- notsureaboutpg 6y agoHuxley in Brave New World came closest to describing modern day depression. It's a lack of meaning. So many people these days believe the entire existence of the human race was an accident, so of course many people will feel their existence is meaningless and doesn't matter and of course that will depress them. Pumping them full of soma doesn't change that fact for these people.
- marketingPro 6y agoFix the source of the problem. I imagine this drug can uncover the problem and help the person solve it.
- smcleod 6y ago> I imagine this drug can uncover the problem and help the person solve it. Bang on the money there, speaking from experience with exactly this.
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- tyingq 6y ago"Two psilocybin sessions (session 1: 20 mg/70 kg; session 2: 30 mg/70 kg) were given (administered in opaque gelatin capsules with approximately 100 mL of water) in the context of supportive psychotherapy (approximately 11 hours)." Curious if that's enough for the patients to have a psychedelic experience.
- RiversHaveWings 6y agoThat should be a medium dose, I think.
- COGlory 6y agoIt its pure psilocybin, I'd imagine show. If it was mushrooms, that's not even a micro dose from what I understand.
- cwkoss 6y agoFrom wikipedia on Psilocybe cubensis: "The concentrations of psilocin and psilocybin, as determined by high-performance liquid chromatography, are in the range of 0.14–0.42% and 0.37–1.30% (dry weight) in the whole mushroom" My napkin math: 20mg is equivalent to roughly between 1.1g to 3.9g of dry weight (lots of variance in potency). This weight range is roughly equivalent to typical recreational dosages.
- momokoko 6y agoThese articles about illegal drugs being miracle cures is just as bad as the fringe diet posts. Fortunately the diet posts seem to have died down but these persist. How is this anything intellectual? It’s just conspiracy theory level pseudoscience like the fecal transplant stuff and the diet / vitamin stuff.
- LatteLazy 6y agoFull disclosure, I have severe clinical depression. Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically. I can appreciate wanting high standards, but that doesn't mean banning everything that doesn't fit the neat mold we use in other cases. Also, suicide is the leading cause of death for multiple age/sex demographic groups in most of the western world. Literally number 1 killer. Current anti depressants are about the least effective medicines used in the Western world. So there is a good public health arguement to accept that we're in an emergency and try things without necessarily having 10 years of statistically significant results and followup and debate.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago> Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically. There are no ethical barriers to including a control group. The idea that double-blind, placebo-controlled trials are impossible with psychoactive medication is a strawman argument, because obviously we can still have a control group. The control group doesn't even need to receive placebo. In a study like this one, they could have easily and ethically had one group receive therapy and a second group receive therapy plus mushrooms. Or the first group could have received therapy plus traditional SSRIs. The placebo response rate in antidepressant studies is extraordinarily high. There is no good reason to omit a control group in studies like these, other than perhaps if the researchers were too underfunded to make it work.
- LatteLazy 6y agoThe reason you cannot have a double blind study is that you can tell you've been given mushrooms. So, I expect, can the therapist and the researcher etc. The moment anyone knows it's no longer double blind. I'm happy to be corrected if there is some clever way around this. I have heard people suggest you give "control" group members so other psychoactive substance (MDMA was suggested). But that doesn't have the same effect as mushrooms. And also, it's ethically merky to give people other drugs they're not expecting/consenting to. Plus then you don't really have a control group, you have Mushrooms vs Other Drugs...
- jtxx 6y ago24 participants?? as much as I want to know the effects / benefits of psychedelics, that seems like way too few people to make such a general statement
- newbie789 6y agoThis is fascinating. I'm glad that they're allowing psychedelics for certain types of treatment, but I hope that the choices open up further than psilocybin. Back in my teenage years I took pretty much every psychedelic I could access, and trip-sat (like babysitting) for about two dozen of my friends over the course of a few years. I found in tripsitting that psilocybin was among the more difficult to manage psychedelics, especially for first-timers. I found that 2C-B/E, DOC and LSD were the best-tolerated substances among people that weren't "psychonaut veterans." This is purely anecdotal and in no way meant to imply that I know what the hell I'm talking about. I only bring it up as a thought that popped into my head relating to the use of psychedelic drugs in therapy. Also, no. I do not know where to get any of this stuff anymore. Haven't known for over a decade.
- PragmaticPulp 6y agoThe study used psilocybin as an adjunct to 11 hours of professional therapy. This study is not the same as taking psilocybin or other psychedelic drugs in an ad-hoc manner.
- aksss 6y agoThat's interesting. I think LSD (not micro, but full on) is probably the most "dangerous". I've seen people fall into full retard mode on LSD, never seen anything quite as severe from people taking shrooms. Personally, I've never had a bad trip on shrooms, definitely had one or two on acid. The nature of the trip is quite a bit different. I'd call LSD an "advanced" psychedelic, and shrooms way more beginner-friendly/benign. Writing none of this to disparage either, just interesting that you have a very different opinion/experience regarding their nature.
- outime 6y agoI read "How to change your mind" last year and I tried this. It worked very well. As many studies indicate, it temporarily disables/decreases DMN (among other effects) which is exactly what a depressed person would need: break the vicious self-destructive circle. Only then I could start making hard but necessary decisions and change my life completely. Depression is nowhere to be seen but that's because I actually changed things and didn't become complacent. I'd not recommend to do it without spending a good time doing research. The aforementioned book is a great resource.
- thotsBgone 6y agoNote that depression is a highly variable disorder, and not every depressed person is in any kind of "vicious self-destructive circle".
- pessimizer 6y agoReally sick of these "drugs feel good" stories. If we were still behaviorists, we wouldn't pretend this was news. This is declaring a full remission of depression after four weeks in half of the subjects. This is pretend science, I absolutely guarantee that an all expenses paid weeklong camping trip (or trip to Paris for those afraid of bugs, or trip to Japan for those sick of Paris) would do the same thing. Asking depressed people whether they're depressed in four weeks during which they've had two good, safe, legal drug sessions, and considering it meaningful, is moronic. edit: I've been reading lately about saying things directly. Of course drugs feel good, that's why people do them.
- tasty_freeze 6y ago> Of course drugs feel good, that's why people do them. Drugs can feel good, but that isn't universal and that isn't the goal of these drug-assisted therapies. Often psychedelics can be scary and anxiety producing. An introspective trip often isn't "fun" but can lead to personal insight -- the internet is littered with such testimonials. That is the hope of these therapies, not to give the person a joy ride for a few hours.
- Gene_Parmesan 6y agoIt's worth noting the study here involved long sessions of psychotherapy. This was not a study where they just gave them LSD and let them at it. The idea as I understand it is that the psilocybin makes it easier for one to integrate the work happening in therapy. Of course, it's a very small sample size (as seems to be true with many of these studies) and appears to have lacked a control, although maybe I missed it.
- fnord77 6y agoa mushroom trip isn't always fun. it's exhausting. But you usually feel good afterwards. So these substances aren't like coke or heroin where it's bliss and euphoria while on them (though that can happen, too)
- thotsBgone 6y agoI can absolutely guarantee that when I was severely depressed, an all expenses paid weeklong camping trip would have: - Not been enjoyable, as I was much less capable of feeling pleasure/joy - Been way to difficult for me to accomplish, given that getting out of bed and showering was often too difficult for me to accomplish - Would have had a negative effect on my depression
- PragmaticPulp 6y agoLink to actual study: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2772630 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/... Many people only read the headlines and assume that psilocybin is treating depression. The reality is that these studies psilocybin as an adjunct to 11 hours of traditional therapy. These studies aren't showing that psilocybin is a promising treatment for depression. They're showing that psilocybin-assisted therapy is a promising treatment for depression.
- thotsBgone 6y agoAs someone with experience with both therapy and psilocybin (while severely depressed), I would guess the psilocybin is the main ingredient in this concoction, and the therapy is just being added to make the study more palatable, the same way medical cannabis use had to precede recreational cannabis use.
- fakeacct112020 6y agoSurvivor bias alert; as someone who cured themself of clinical, multi-year depression with one, self-administered dose of Psilocybin in 2005... this is real. This can work. And I will never, ever take Psilocybin again.
- neonate 6y agoWould you be willing to share more about this? What was your experience? Why will you never take it again? How do you think it cured your depression?
- fakeacct112020 6y agoSome experiences are not fit for words, so I won’t attempt to share my experience. I do not recommend you take an unguided, illegal street dose of psilocybin. Guided, therapeutic delivery is surely more effective. Still, I believe the affects were profound, terrifying, enlightening and Most importantly lasting, 15 years in my case. I think the studies do a better job justifying the science of efficacy. Instead I will say those that struggle, first get your sleep, diet, work and community/relationships in order. Wellness is comprehensive and this tool is better viewed as a spirit guide than a magical cure.
- mancerayder 6y agoI wonder if there's a treatment modality for self-treatment. I find it increases circular thoughts/anxiety for a time, but may have a sort of cleansing effect on the serotonin receptors. That's a very subjective explanation. If your issue is negative thinking it doesn't necessarily help .. I guess without a guide.
- a4444f 6y agoPeople using throwaway accounts (maybe they have to) to comment, and then there is this 'depression' ICD, wonder if there is any connection.
- fakeacct112020 6y agoHN of course is a wonderful place. But there is a stigma on this everywhere. I would much rather seek the support of real world friends than face the judgement of internet denizens.
- a4444f 6y agoMy idea was, that even online, people can't seem to afford to speak their mind, so I guess in real world this could be even harder.
- mooneater 6y agoI want to know how republicans that take it feel.
- csours 6y agoIs there any way for me to actually try this in the USA?
- fnord77 6y agoit's currently decriminalized in Oakland and probably other cities. there are grow kits you can buy to ensure you're getting the real deal. shroomery.org probably can help you out I think the therapy portion of this is crucial. I've heard stories of "underground" psilocybin therapists, but finding them would take some sleuthing.
- pizzazzaro 6y agoSpend a vacation in the state of Oregon or the cities of Washington DC or Oakland, California.
- nagaa 6y agoI was quite depressed as a teenager and also took mushrooms many times. I actually think it made my depression worse over time. I mean alcohol will greatly and quickly relieve depression while you are drunk too. That is not solving anything though. The obvious problem with this kind of study is it is hard to see this being done by objective researchers who are not quite biased towards finding benefits of psychedelic use.
- every 6y agoI can offer only firsthand anecdotal experiences from the late 60's and early 70's. Most psycho-active recreational substances, while fun in the near term, left you afterwards feeling like you'd been run over by a truck and your dog had died. But never silly-cybin. Vastly amusing, visually stunning and afterwards you always felt like a million bucks. Definitely my personal favorite. YMMV...
- drummer 6y agoDepression is a logical and natural reaction to something fucked in a person's environment. The proper solution is to fix the environment, not to drug yourself into living in a dreamstate. Quite frankly, the world being the way it is today, you should be worried about yourself if you are not depressed. Again, ignoring reality is not the solution.
- Synaesthesia 6y agoHave you ever taken psilocybin/mushrooms? It's quite a remarkable experience. It makes you more sensitive in some respects, far from "drugging yourself into a dreamstate"
- austincheney 6y ago> A new study of 24 adults with major depression finds that two doses of the psychedelic substance psilocybin, given with supportive psychotherapy, produced rapid and large reductions in depressive symptoms. Notice that therapy is required. What are the odds people will look for the convenience of a pill while completely ignoring any required therapy and then blame everything else but themselves?
- mistermann 6y agoThis is in no way a proof or even claim that therapy is required, although your overall point is valid.
- boltefnovor 6y agoA study of 24 participants seems pretty flimsy.
- say_it_as_it_is 6y agoIs monitoring a patient wearing eye coverings and headphones essentially what psilocybin assisted therapy is? This doesn't seem like something one actually needs a therapist for..
- eggy 6y agoIs there any research on the adverse affects of quickly relieving depression medicinally, or the role of non-clinical depression in the psychology and function of a person? I ask because I realize the need and desire to relieve many people who suffer from clinical depression that totally derails their life or ability to function, but I always wonder at the possible function of some depression in the normal functioning of the psychology of a person. Does the effect of psilocybin wear off if used too often?