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Kim Dotcom can be extradited to US but can also appeal
- 29athrowaway 6y agoOut of the loop here: Do US courts have jurisdiction over that guy?
- q3k 6y agoUS courts have jurisdiction over nearly anyone they want, due to the US's soft power projected on the rest of the world.
- spqr233 6y agoWell... yes. But obviously to some limit. I don't think the US could extradite someone over matters that don't involve the something in the country.
- freeone3000 6y agoWhere is copyright infringement located?
- pessimizer 6y agoIn every so-called "free trade" agreement.
- speeder 6y agoI am from Brazil... During cold war, any kind of suspected "socialism" seemly counted as "something to do with USA" because a bunch of people were thrown out of helicopters (literally) when they couldn't be extradited.
- 29athrowaway 6y agoSame for all Operation Condor countries. It is a trick to avoid prosecution. When no body is found, it is hard to prove the person is dead and therefore hard to prosecute the perpetrators of the murder.
- nemothekid 6y ago>But obviously to some limit The only actual limit is if you hide in Russia or China.
- bloak 6y agoI've read that France will not extradite a French citizen. So that's one other place to hide, if you're a French citizen. You won't escape justice that way, I think - if necessary they'll try you in France for a murder you committed in the US - but you'll escape US justice.
- btilly 6y agoI couldn't believe that so I read up on it. And indeed, https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/french-law-prohibits-extraditing-dsk-back-to-the-u-s https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/french-law-prohibits-ext... claims that French law says that France will not extradite its own citizens. And they have written that into every treaty they sign. For example http://www.mcnabbassociates.com/France%20International%20Extradition%20Treaty%20with%20the%20United%20States.pdf http://www.mcnabbassociates.com/France%20International%20Ext... is the treaty with the USA and it includes: Article 3(1) declares that neither State has an obligation to extradite its own nationals, but the executive authority of the United States shall have the discretion to do so. The nationality of the person sought shall be the nationality of the person at the time the offense was committed. Article 3(2) requires a State that refuses an extradition request solely on the basis of the nationality of the person sought to submit the case to its authorities for prosecution, if so requested by the Requesting State. It appears that you are entirely correct!
- toyg 6y agoHowever, France is also subject to the European Arrest Warrant, which means they are "precluded from refusing the surrender of their own nationals wanted for the purposes of prosecution, but they may condition the surrender of a requested person on his or her being returned to the issuing state to serve any sentence ultimately imposed". This is obviously only for other European countries, but I bet you could then extradite from such a country to extra-EU jurisdictions simply with political help. So let's say person X is wanted in the US. They get Country A to emit a warrant for them, A gets X from France, then extradites X to the US.
- raverbashing 6y agoI'd doubt he would be extradited if he was in his country of citizenship
- smnrchrds 6y agoCorrect me if I am wrong, but I think US claims jurisdiction over anything that involves a transaction in USD. And because of the way international payment systems are set up, there always is a USD transaction somewhere in the loop. If a Danish customer takes his Danish Krones to the bank and sends them to a supplier in Germany in the form on Euros, the transaction goes like DKK → USD → EUR, so US claims jurisdiction over it and enforces its domestic laws on it: https://www.icenews.is/2012/03/04/us-confiscates-policemans-cuban-cigar-cash/ https://www.icenews.is/2012/03/04/us-confiscates-policemans-... And it doesn't even have to be an international transaction. Even domestic ones sometime run afoul of this limitation, as this Canadian small business owner found out: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/square-canada-1.5303143 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/square-canada-1.53031...
- Fumtumi 6y agoSounds and read more like an very rare case where it is not even clear if this holds up in court.
- smnrchrds 6y agoNot really. This is how US is able to unilaterally impose sanctions on Iran. Since international transactions go through USD, they have effectively cut Iran from being able to transact with the rest of the world on a meaningful scale. European countries tried to build an alternative to circumvent the need for a USD layer, but it has not been successful. USD's unique position in the international stage allows US to impose its domestic policy on a large part of the world. From Washington Post: > The power of U.S. sanctions lies in the use of the U.S. dollar in most international transactions. A foreign company that sends its proceeds from trade with Iran through an international bank would likely face sanctions because part of it would be conducted in dollars. An international company with an American employee who has something to do with a transaction, no matter how inconsequential, could also run afoul of U.S. sanctions. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/iran-plans-to-use-other-currencies-to-get-around-us-sanctions/2018/09/29/230df8e4-d4a3-4429-94be-4dbb90ece08e_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/iran-...
- 6y ago
- disown 6y agoNot soft power. Military/political/financial power ( pax americana ). NZ is part of the vassal/ally network we have all around the world. The US has tons of soft power in china, russia, etc, but no real influence in either because we have no political/military dominion over them. At least not yet. Canada is a prime example. Canada has "soft power" in china but still their "citizens/spies" are arrested and they have to beg the US/EU to help free their "citizens/spies" in china. And for all the mocking of Trump that canada loves to do, when trump cracks the whip and tells them to arrest a chinese executive, they do it. It wasn't Trump's "soft power" that made canada jump, that's for sure. It isn't trump's "soft power" that make sweden, britain, etc side with him over china either. Neither pax americana, pax romana, pax mongolica, etc were built around soft power. Actually the dependence on "soft power" probably signaled the end of pax romana, pax mongolica, etc.
- javert 6y agoCan you make this specific? What exactly did the U.S. do/threaten to get Canada to arrest a Chinese executive? Obviously, it wasn't a threat of military invasion, but I'm open to some other possibility.
- binarymax 6y agoWell kinda. US and NZ have an extradition treaty. But that's for criminal and not civil law. The unfortunate thing is that copyright is treated as criminal rather than civil (in the US), so they have claimed jurisdiction.
- wdb 6y agoI always thought the US doesn't extradite its citizens? Why woud an other country extradite its citizens to the US when the US wouldn't its citizens?
- dau 6y agodue to an imbalance of power
- speedgoose 6y agoFrance is weaker than USA and doesn't extradite its citizens.
- toyg 6y agoI'd bet my ass that France does extradite tons of people, maybe just less for certain categories of highly-visible political crimes. They participate in INTERPOL and obviously obey the European Arrest Warrant since 2002. The era of France being a sanctuary for violent leftist activists is long gone.
- retrac 6y agoFrance does not extradite its own citizens. It's an unconditional constitutional right of French citizens not to be extradited from France. Of course, France today has provisions to prosecute someone in France for a crime committed elsewhere, which satisfies their European neighbours for the most part.
- 6y ago
- juskrey 6y agoIf US, or ANY other country court, claims damages to anything under their jurisdiction, they are free to pursue whatever and whoever they want for making justice. Another question whether they can lawfully extract someone from alien territory, hence the brawl.
- anonymfus 6y agoJurisdiction can not be over a guy or a gal, it's about where and which crime happened. Person's citizenship can play a role in a process of extradition as countries generally protect their own citizens from it, but in this case Kim Dotcom is not a citizen of New Zealand.
- dane-pgp 6y ago> Kim Dotcom is not a citizen of New Zealand. Which prompts the question of whether he has applied for citizenship. Apparently that is an option for people who have lived in the country for at least 5 years, but it is subject to "good character" requirements and possibly some degree of political consideration, so it may not be enough for him to solely rely on being deemed innocent until proven guilty.
- gnopgnip 6y agoExtraterritorial jurisdiction can apply based on citizenship
- athms 6y agoYes. Dotcom ran a business that had operations in the US. It makes no difference where somebody resides or if they have ever been to a country. If I live in France and hire a team of people to rob a bank in the US, I have committed crime in the US. You would think somebody with past convictions for insider trading, credit card fraud, hacking, and embezzlement would be a bit smarter about his next criminal enterprise. FYI -- Don't locate a data center in the US if plan on breaking US laws.
- colejohnson66 6y agoTPB’s servers are running in Sweden last I checked, but the US still claims jurisdiction over them
- athms 6y agoThe US has not asserted a claim over the machines in Sweden.
- justinzollars 6y agoNo.
- diogenesjunior 6y agoDoes anyone know what can US courts do about him though?
- Scarbutt 6y agoLock him up forever for Hollywood to set an example. If he is extradited, it's game over for him.
- thefounder 6y agoEven better: force him into suicide! It would not be the first one to get this treatment.
- djsumdog 6y agoFor copyright infringement? They don't typically "suicide" people for that. He's not Epstein.
- shadowgovt 6y agoI assume the parent is referring to Mr. Swartz, who, though technically prosecuted for computer fraud and abuse, was basically gone after for "stealing" digital copies of journal data. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz
- chrisseaton 6y agoPut him on a rendition flight and put him in a US prison. Is that not bad enough?
- Taniwha 6y agothat's going to be interesting - NZ is still largely closed to foreigners - would they chain him up at one end and unchain him at the other?
- acomjean 6y agoAt this point I feel that this is 15 years old and really not worth pursuing. It probably wasn't in the first case. Is Dotcom his real name?
- wnevets 6y ago> Is Dotcom his real name? IIRC, legally yes.
- leetcrew 6y agoit is his legal name, though I doubt it was his original surname at birth.
- moomin 6y agoI mean, it's not the one he was born with, but it's definitely the one he's known by. Whether he executed the relevant legal documents, I don't know, but I don't think it's important either. Fun fact, the person born Gordon Sumner's kids call him "Sting".
- mikeyouse 6y agoIt's his legal name and actually is on the indictments and other legal docs - https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/documents/megaupload-indictment.pdf https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/documents/meg...
- 6y ago
- swamy_g 6y agoOne thing to note is that Joe Biden was actually instrumental in calling the raid on his New Zealand home a few years ago. Wonder how things will shape up when/if he becomes the prez.
- mhh__ 6y agoI doubt he cares, let's be honest.
- thefounder 6y agoFor some reasons dmca/drm is never part of political campaigns. I wonder why
- reaperducer 6y agoBecause political campaigns tend to be about the economy and other things of more immediate impact.
- laumars 6y agoThey tend to be about popular topics. Sometimes that overlaps with the categories you’ve described and sometimes it doesn’t.
- chmod775 6y agoBecause neither rights holders nor politicians want people to think about DRM and copyright too much. If those laws/rights actually became campaign issues or were uniformly enforced, the whole thing would quickly collapse. Due to the scale on which people ignore these laws this would result in having to fine/punish/demand damages from at least a third of the (US, or anywhere really) population. Think about how long those laws would survive if you did that.
- mr_toad 6y agoBecause the RIAA donates to both parties?
- jchw 6y agoThe disproportionate response against Kim Dotcom is such a joke, and the joke is increasingly on us U.S. taxpayers I’d wager. I think separation of church and state was a good ideal, but now more than ever it feels like we need separation of corporation and state.
- lumberjack 6y agoLawyers saw that he was very rich so they predicted a decades long legal battle and made it happen. That's my guess.
- ChuckMcM 6y agoI sometimes wonder if US prosecution of these "crimes" is more about attempting to drain the defendant of money through legal fees rather than trying to get any sort of conviction.
- manquer 6y agoIt is also a show of force intended to deter others from trying .
- AniseAbyss 6y agoIts like the drug war- after the US went after Escobar and Noriega nothing changed. Someone will always step in to fill the void.
- _jal 6y agoThe way the US legal system works, a conviction is frequently only possible if a rich defendant is first drained of money. This has nothing to do with innocence or guilt.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- bmitc 6y agoThe unfortunate thing is they’re all coupled and non-separated: church, corporation, and state.
- jawilson 6y agoHe should argue that because of the prevalence of Covid-19 in the United States and the inability of the US to protect even the President of the United States from Covid-19, that extradition is a possible extra legal death sentence.
- Zenbit_UX 6y agoNow that would be an interesting argument, hard to argue against it too.
- djsumdog 6y agoIs he over 55? If not his chance of dying or even contracting COVID is incredibly small. It might be a valid argument to delay extradition until after the WHO declares an end to the pandemic, but not to prevent it entirely.
- kuschku 6y agoHis age isn't, his BMI is. He's definitely at risk.
- vmception 6y agoHe is morbidly obese.
- FireBeyond 6y ago> or even contracting COVID is incredibly small Citation needed to show that people under 55 are inherently more immune to COVID-19.
- mr_toad 6y agoGiven the state of the US prison system you could make a case of cruel and unusual punishment.
- dylan604 6y agoBecause of COVID or just the state of the prison system in general? Personally, I would say either case, but the system itself is not going to agree with it. There have been reports of some people allowed to stay in house arrest rather than reporting to jail.
- 3327 6y agoWhat waste of Time. Us corporations and state Should be separated just Like the church.
- onetimemanytime 6y agoYou can argue whether what he did is illegal /immoral or not, but the state is here to (among other things) protect property and the marketplace. If I break into Boeing and steal something shouldn't the government pursue me or should Boeing hire the Pinkertons?-
- maltelandwehr 6y agoKim also did stock market manipulation and „stole“ over a million dollars from investors who believed his lies.
- emteycz 6y agoKim didn't break into anything and didn't steal anything. He made it easy to share information, that's it [if we're talking about Megaupload only].
- maltelandwehr 6y agoI was not talking about Megaupload.
- emteycz 6y agoWhat are you talking about then? Is he being convicted for other crimes? I thought the extradition case is about Megaupload only.
- maltelandwehr 6y agoThe extradition is for Megaupload - as far as I know. My perception of him is based on all the crimes he committed. I was making a moral case - not a legal one.
- shean_massey 6y agoWow, that's a flashback of my college years! Good times, thank you Kim!
- busterarm 6y agoFor the nostalgia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Wvn-9BXVc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Wvn-9BXVc
- pantalaimon 6y agoeven more nostalgia https://youtu.be/S5ZBZV8hFb4 https://youtu.be/S5ZBZV8hFb4 (german)
- mrlala 6y agoBaffling anyone defending Kim Dotcom. The dude gets mega rich based on creating a platform with the sole purpose of storing/distributing pirated media. (his 2019 estimate net worth is $200 million) You can look at piracy in a billion different ways; but when you specifically create a platform to make money off piracy that crosses the line.
- maltelandwehr 6y agoIt is so weird that internationally he is only know for that. He did many things that are much much worse.
- microtherion 6y agoSo much this. Basically his entire life seems predicated on a firm conviction that he's entitled to the fruits of other people's labor: Fraud, stock manipulation, embezzlement, etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom Finally, he hit on the perfect crime, in that a large part of society seems to be willing to take the side of somebody making $200M off other people's music over the musicians wanting to make a living off their music, no matter what the law actually says. [Hail caesar, those about to be downvoted salute you]
- marcosdumay 6y agoThere is this thing about legal protections only being valid if they apply to the people the public won't like. Otherwise, they are useless. He did plenty of despicable things, and should pay for them (he is, isn't he?). At the same time, that extradition is wrong.
- mwfunk 6y agoSeriously. Some major rose-tinted glasses going on here. It's also hard to see anyone see this guy and how he presents himself and think, "wow, what a cool dude! I wish I could be more like him!" Like on a purely personal level, there are people in the tech world who think this is someone who has done well at life and they'd like being friends with him and spending time with him if only they could. This guy is and always has been the Icy Hot Stuntaz of the hacker world and it's super revealing when people seem to default to being on his side because they think he's like "one of us" or whatever. I have no problem with people arguing about the pros and cons of copyright law and where the lines should be drawn and who's responsible for what, but it's really hard to take anyone seriously who thinks Kim Dotcom of all people seems like a pretty cool guy. None of this has anything to do with who's right in this case or whether or not he should be extradited, it's just a really inexplicable undercurrent to any discussion about him.
- at-fates-hands 6y agoI had honestly forgotten about this since it's been ongoing for so long. Some of the more notorious details of the case: The lengthy legal saga also saw the initial search warrant was challenged in court, which led to the discovery of unlawful spying on Dotcom by the Government Communications Security Bureau in 2013. In 2017, police were also believed to have paid Dotcom a six-figure sum in a private settlement over alleged unreasonable force. In 2018, Dotcom also tried and failed to have former US President Barack Obama served with a subpoena to force him to give evidence in the High Court over a damages claim for Megaupload. I honestly thought after they found unlawful spying that would've been the end of the case. I guess I was a bit naive.
- rootsudo 6y agoDecade later and wow, this is just sad overall for the USA.
- slg 6y agoJust a reminder that you can simultaneously be against the current copyright system in the US while also thinking Kim Dotcom is a criminal that deserves punishment. Too many people in this thread or forcing this into a false dichotomy. Flaws in the current system don't fully excuse his misdeeds many of which are unrelated to copyright. Or to put it in another context, you can both be against the war on drugs while also thinking that El Chapo belongs in prison.
- ur-whale 6y agoYour post hints at other "crimes". Care to elaborate or post a link?
- slg 6y agoI couldn't find any documentation on the exact breakdown of the 12 of the 13 charges in this case that were approved for extradition, but here[1] is an article from 2017 that lists he is being charged with copyright infringement, money laundering, racketeering, and wire fraud.[2] It appears that the 1 that was thrown out was related to money laundering. That means there is still racketeering and wire fraud charges plus there could have been multiple money laundering charges in the original list. This also doesn't include any of the shady behavior in which there were accusations of but weren't included in the legal case. Such as the staff of MegaUpload regularly rummaging through the files of users. That likely isn't technically a crime, but it is something that should certainly be frowned on by the HN community. [2] - https://fr.reuters.com/article/us-newzealand-internet-dotcom-idUSKBN15Z07C https://fr.reuters.com/article/us-newzealand-internet-dotcom...
- fastball 6y agoI don't think El Chapo belongs in prison for drug-dealing though, I think he belongs in prison for murder, etc. Has Kim Dotcom committed other crimes besides copyright infringement ones that the US plans to charge him with?
- echlebek 6y agoSure, maybe he's a criminal and deserves punishment, but how about letting NZ decide that instead of the USA?
- ur-whale 6y agoTime for Kim to buy a metric ton of Bitcoin.
- gitweb 6y agoSame Kim Dotcom that pushed the Setch Rich conspiracy and falsely claimed to have proof that he was the leaker to WikiLeaks. I have a feeling there is more happening behind the scenes than just copyright infringement.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- saiadarsh99 6y agoNice
- mmaunder 6y agoLegal conflict is brutal. It takes an incredible emotional toll over time. Even when you're not thinking about it, you're thinking about it. I had forgotten about this, but the fact that it's been going on this long would have taken a tremendous toll on him and his family as it hangs over them. Whether or not you think he's guilty, it's worth considering the punishment that's already been dealt. As an aside: I've been involved in two major lawsuits (just corporate stuff) and you can always tell those that haven't been through the process by their willingness to sue. It's a massive distraction that has a huge opportunity cost. Avoid if you can and keep focusing on creating awesome.