11 ms·
Good. Putting people with addiction issues in jail was the wrong approach. Perhaps the addicted can seek help in other ways without the fear or risk of being
by JasonHarrison 6y ago
Good. Putting people with addiction issues in jail was the wrong approach.
Perhaps the addicted can seek help in other ways without the fear or risk of being incarcerated.
- redwoolf 6y agoI don't understand why this is being downvoted. Addiction is a disease and shouldn't be criminalized. Part of the reason the opioid epidemic is so bad is that people don't seek help or call emergency services for fear of criminal punishment.
- judge2020 6y agoWas it downvoted? It's currently top of HN, isn't greyed-out, and is only 2 minutes old.
- redwoolf 6y agoIt was when I commented.
- ashtonkem 6y agoOne of the sad realities of American politics is that jailing people, and jailing people under inhumaine circumstances remains very popular. For any given behavior that is socially undesirable it’s easy to find a large enough constituency that says “lock them up and throw away the key”, even if as a society we all agree that our criminal justice system is ineffective and out of control.
- InitialLastName 6y agoPart of the issue is that nobody ever got elected to local law-enforcement/judicial positions (sheriffs, state atty generals, judges) by saying "I'm definitely going to arrest fewer people in your town".
- ashtonkem 6y agoThis returns to my original point; people win elections promising to lock more people up because locking people up is very popular.
- SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago> under inhumane circumstances remains very popular. I recently read an article about the popularity of '/r/justiceserved' type forums (the original tagline of this subreddit was "Now with 40% more police brutality" but was changed as it became more popular). I can't for the life of me find the article, but it was a fairly ambivalent account of how this kind of forum taps into a deeply innate arousal from visceral punishment. Something that the author decides, sadly, appears to be in all of us. > lock them up and throw away the key The "empathy gap" rears its ugly head.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy_gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy_gap
- derivagral 6y agoI'm not familiar with the rest of Altemeyer's work but I found this book fascinating to read; it tries to go into where some of that might come from. https://theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-book/ https://theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-book/
- bertil 6y agoThe intent expressed is likely laudable, and the helpful approach overall preferred by the HN crowd -- however, the context, specifically associating drug consumption with addiction might not be popular among people who use psychoactive substances occasionally and no see themselves as addicts.
- draw_down 6y agoThis isn’t an actual problem though, addiction is. If some people who do acid sometimes get their feelings hurt over something people aren’t even really accusing them of, I’d say that’s acceptable collateral
- ekianjo 6y agoNot every person using drugs is addicted. Let's not make that kind of claim.
- apexalpha 6y agoYeah, this is a big problem. A few years back there was white heroin being sold as cocaine in Amsterdam. So the Amsterdam government put up signs and issued warnings to call an ambulance immediatly if someone became unwell after using 'cocaine'. Soon after it was discovered that a lot of American and British tourists were not doing this out of fear for getting arrested. The Amsterdam government had to add a specific part to the signs (in English) saying you wouldn't be arrested if you called for help. Creating a atmosphere of fear costs lives. Article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/02/you-will-not-be-arrested-for-using-drugs-what-a-sane-drug-policy-looks-like/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/02/you-w... Sign: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/CFDYWJM7HI3ORPVLSMVTGGPPT4.jpg&w=916 https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://... (Bottom part)
- murbard2 6y agoNot everyone who consumes drugs, "hard" or otherwise has an addiction issue or needs to seek help, though of course imprisonment is especially cruel when it targets those who do.
- sneak 6y ago[Edit: This comment was an erroneous reply when I misread the comment to which I was replying, and is now removed.]
- baldfat 6y agoPeople view LSD as a non-addiction drug because it only works bi-weekly is the argument. Drugs legal and illegal might be a ticket item BUT the health issues are still the same, even if they are "non-addictive."
- scoopdewoop 6y agoBaseless Anecdote: I once met a man that claimed he took acid more often than that in the 70s. He said he would get intravenous B vitamin supplements to trip more often. not really arguing anything, I just found his story fascinating.
- murbard2 6y agoWhich part?
- GordonS 6y agoYou're right, some people simply enjoy occasionally consuming drugs. It's not much different to people consuming alcohol really, the only real differences are alcohol is generally more socially accepted, and that alcohol is generally considered to be more harmful to society. If there was a guaranteed safe supply chain for recreational drugs that are currently illegal, things would be a lot safer too.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
- dheera 6y agoAt the same time I would have serious concerns about public safety for certain drugs. While I agree jail isn't the answer, I think house arrest or curfews would be a good middle ground for drug abusers to maintain public safety while they engage in rehabilitation programs at the same time.
- ashtonkem 6y agoThere have been attempts to categorize and measure the social harms caused by heavy users of various drugs, and the actual measurable impacts don’t really line up with what people worry about. The study I saw put alcohol at the top of the list, due to the social cost of drunken fights, spousal abuse, and DUIs. I’m sure there are some public safety issues that we should deal with for the various “hard” drugs decriminalized here, but I also find it fascinating how much social desirability affects which drugs we decide are a problem that require special treatment, since I’ve never seen anyone recommend house arrest or curfews for alcoholics.
- dheera 6y ago> alcohol at the top of the list So criminalize alcohol abuse as well. Not jail-criminalize it, that's too expensive for taxpayers. But I sure would love if the streets are clear of drunk, violent people fighting. Impose curfews and cameras in their homes.
- eloff 6y agoI agree something could be done about alcohol abuse. But your last sentence is madness. Unless you mean it sarcastically, which is the only way I can understand it.
- dheera 6y agoI don't understand why it is madness. Care to explain? I see violent people on the street. They are a danger to me. I want safe streets. House arrest costs taxpayers very little. If there was an angry bear on the streets threatening people it would probably be relocated, tagged, and confined to the forests as well. Not much different.
- umvi 6y ago> Good. Putting people with addiction issues in jail was the wrong approach. A big problem is that addictions are expensive and people are willing to commit crimes to feed addictions when they run out of money. Anecdata of 1, but one of my friends in high school got addicted to heroin, and he ended up in jail not because of possession of heroin, but because he started stealing so he could come up with the money to buy more... so in that sense decriminalization won't necessarily help, but I agree that possession of drugs for personal use should not necessarily result in jail time.
- BurningFrog 6y agoAddiction is only expensive because drugs are criminalized. The drugs themselves would be cheap if legalized.
- panzagl 6y agoThey'll be cheap if sale and distribution is legalized- this just amps up the demand side of the curve.
- tclancy 6y agoThat assumes an economic elasticity that I don't think drugs have.
- umvi 6y agolegalization and decriminalization are slightly different. Drugs will only be cheap if: - they are legal to commercially manufacture and distribute (not merely decriminalized) - they aren't taxed excessively Cigarettes, for example, are cheap to manufacture, but still expensive due to high taxes in a lot of places (up to $10+ per pack).
- jjk166 6y agoYeah, but who's giving handys under the bridge for a carton of cigarettes? If you are already committing crimes every day buying and possessing something, then committing crimes to feed the habit isn't a big jump. Conversely, if you haven't done anything illegal yet, most people will pay a hefty premium to avoid having to do anything illegal.
- giantg2 6y agoI agree that was not the right approach. I'm not sure this is the right approach either. Keeping it criminalized, but as a summary offense with the punishment being an educational presentation/course on rehab options might provide some better outcomes. There are some tangentially related things to consider here too, like drug convictions preventing addicts from buying weapons.
- NeutronStar 6y agoCan you explain what's wrong with Portugal's approach?
- giantg2 6y agoWhy is this downvoted?
- pstuart 6y agoIt's a health issue, not a criminal issue. Drug laws cause more crime -- by design.
- giantg2 6y agoHow would a summary offense with a punishment of education on rehab options create more crime? How is it necessarily a health issue? Not all drug users are addicts. Edit: And perhaps the most obvious support for it being a criminal issue is that the first time someone does the drug it would only be a criminal issue and could not be a health issue since they had no prior exposure to become addicted.
- nemothekid 6y ago>How is it necessarily a health issue? Not all drug users are addicts. 1. If you are a drug user, not even necessarily an addict (in which your need to consume the drug gets in the way of other life functions), then society is already accepting. Cocaine use, for example, is far less stigmatized in the US and UK. 2. If you step back from your biases and view addiction as a "sickness", then throwing addicts in prison makes as much sense as throwing someone in prison for a broken leg. Sure sometimes it might work, but it's clearly not the most optimal solution. Other countries that have taken this approach have far fewer recidivism rates - which is the metric that should be judged. Finally to answer your point "summary offense with a punishment of education on rehab options create more crime" is not at all what happens in the US today. Drug use & possession carries prision term, in which cutting cold turkey (or, likely more commonly sneaking drugs into prison) is the only option. After which, you are likely to lose your job and turn to more crime to make a living once released from prison. A more realistic counter to your point however is that the current American criminal justice system has little flexibility for nuance, and without major police reform, leaving this issue to police simply does not produce the intended results.
- trentnix 6y agoIncarceration is what triggered a family member to finally have success fighting their addiction. Loss of job and family wasn't rock bottom for them. Incarceration was. And they've since rebuilt their life and their family. Incarceration was the trigger that made that possible. I'm sympathetic to your point and to all who are subject to any drug or alcohol addiction. But I feel compelled to comment that incarceration is not always the inhumane dead-end that it's painted as. It's one of many tools that can be used to rehabilitate those in need.
- MrRiddle 6y agoHow do you rehabilitate a person if they’re unable to find a reasonable job afterwards?
- rm_-rf_slash 6y agoIf incarceration was a common rock bottom that addicts could build up from, I might agree with you, but knowing what we know about recidivism among addicts, it is likelier to be an aggregate negative even if a few people find a way to recover during their sentence.
- drewcoo 6y agoWhen we can't deal with issues openly, especially mental health issues, we often see the "tough" route promoted. That would be "rock bottom" in your anecdote. Consider how PTSD used to be treated back when it was "shell shock" and considered a personal moral failure. People were told there was nothing wrong. Many of those people "recovered," too. But was that the right way to treat people facing real problems?
- aaomidi 6y agoDid this person have a home to get back to? People to support them financially once he was out? The way incarceration impacts people is extremely different.
- carapace 6y agoThousands of people have had their lives ruined by being incarcerated for possession of cannabis. Hundreds of thousands maybe. Most of them weren't addicts, or committing other crimes, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time with a bag of weed in their pockets or whatever. It's good that your family member finally had success fighting their addiction, but at what price?
- frankfrankfrank 6y agoI agree with the general sentiment of that, however the nuanced reality is far more complex than that. For many people the only treatment that actually worked is precisely prison. The reality of the rehabilitation industry across the board is not exactly a shining example of success, while prison does seem to show significant advantages. The question we have to ask ourselves these is essentially this one; what is better, someone that goes to prison for 5 years and gets treatment and comes out with a higher likelihood of recovery, or someone that spends 5 years in and out of treatment and living in drug addiction misery of exploitation and abuse and with a notably lower likelihood of permanent recovery? Of the two examples the former is obviously better, even though a third, hybrid option that no one talks about is likely the best; a kind of reform complex/community akin to boot camp of the past broken people are broken down and rebuilt into new, functioning adults. For anyone who knows anything about the military, especially of the past, will know that in treatment of people, the bootcamp model is the very best option. It builds character, it shatters bad habits and compulsions, it builds support structures and deep bonds, it creates a pathway to hope, success, and achievement, it uses sticks and carrots to set people on a graduated path. It's literally everything that drug addicts need if one actually cares about them getting the devil off their back, and is not just interested in trying to feel good about themselves.
- tmaly 6y agoOn the flip side, I can see some potential bad outcomes for young children being exposed to this.
- sesteel 6y agoWhile you chose not to share what poor outcomes you are considering; your comment compels me to state the obvious: nearly all choices have trade offs.
- tmaly 6y agoI thought it was obvious. Young kids are easily influenced. If you create an environment where there are no restrictions on drug usage, kids get exposure to it.
- simonh 6y agoAgreed. I do not agree with decriminalising the trade in drugs, but criminalising their possession for personal use is a really important practical step in fighting the trade in hard drugs and reducing addiction rates for many reasons. It decouples the interests of drug traffickers from those of users making users more likely to cooperate with law enforcement, frees up social workers and medical professionals from the risk of criminal liability for associating with drug users in possession of or using drugs. It also makes it easier to address incidental associated health issue such as infections from dirty needles. Treating it as a health issue destigmatises it making it easier for users to talk about it and seek help. This is not theoretical, this is from actual findings from countries like Portugal the Netherlands and Norway where trading in hard drugs is still illegal but possession and use are treated as public health issues. This is a policy that works.
- dotandgtfo 6y agoFully agree with you, I just want to point out that Norway has a very strict stance against all drugs, so much so that you can lose your drivers license for having cannabis metabolites in your blood due too a lack of "soberness". It's mental.
- simonh 6y agoI think it's really important to dissociate supporting decriminalisation of possession and use from being "pro drugs". They are very much not the same thing.
- wayneftw 6y ago> I do not agree with decriminalising the trade in drugs. Why not? Do you support criminal cartels making lots of money off of them or do you think that the War on Drugs will actually get rid of that criminal element which profits from them at some point? I don't see a problem with anyone putting anything they want into their own body. Arrest them when they commit an actual victim-ful crime like stealing but not before that. To that end, I say sell them with regulation just like Alcohol. Keeping sales illegal means questionable sources, questionable quality and enormous profits for criminal gangs.