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Cleaning up the US would probably mean outsourcing more carbon emissions to the rest of the world. Outsourcing is the primary way the developed world has "clean

by api 6y ago

Cleaning up the US would probably mean outsourcing more carbon emissions to the rest of the world. Outsourcing is the primary way the developed world has "cleaned up" so far. The only way we will substantially reduce CO2 emissions is to develop a source of energy that is carbon-free (or incredibly low carbon) and cheaper and easier to deploy than coal and gas. Reductions without that are politically impossible. There is no other way. If we don't succeed in doing so, we should plan for significant climate change as a certainty and begin planning our adaptive response.

einpoklum 6y ago
> Cleaning up the US would probably mean outsourcing more carbon emissions to the rest of the world. That's like saying that cleaning my house means moving the dirt to somebody else's house. > There is no other way. That is not true. The other ways are: 1. Reduction of energy use per person. 2. Control of population growth - at the very least, stabilizing the Earth's population and theoretically a reduction. 3. Using Energy sources which are low-carbon, but expensive and/or difficult to deploy. of course your way makes it a lot _easier_, but since reduction of greenhouse gasses is necessary regardless of the availability of a convenient energy solution, these are also relevant, and gradually are becoming necessary. By the way - (1.) is already progressing relatively well in lots and lots of countries.
- api 6y ago
  > That's like saying that cleaning my house means moving the dirt to somebody else's house. No, it's more like moving your cooking and garage wood shop work to someone else's house, taking the results home, and leaving the mess. The dirtiest parts of the production chain required to sustain our lifestyle have largely been offshored, not only because of cheaper labor but because less developed or more totalitarian countries will tolerate the pollution. Yes these things can be done cleaner, but that adds cost that people don't seem to be willing to pay. Americans want all of: (1) high paying good jobs, (2) clean air and water, and (3) cheap manufactured shit. Sorry, but it's worse than a trichotomy. If you pick 3 you have to pass on 1 and 2.
whizzter 6y ago
Nuclear, Solar, Wind and Wave energy are all there if we just were willing to do it (too bad about the Green lobby getting stuck up about Nuclear and the Coal/Oil lobby(+nimbyists) sabotaging everything else).

by api 6y ago

einpoklum 6y ago

> Cleaning up the US would probably mean outsourcing more carbon emissions to the rest of the world. That's like saying that cleaning my house means moving the dirt to somebody else's house. > There is no other way. That is not true. The other ways are: 1. Reduction of energy use per person. 2. Control of population growth - at the very least, stabilizing the Earth's population and theoretically a reduction. 3. Using Energy sources which are low-carbon, but expensive and/or difficult to deploy. of course your way makes it a lot _easier_, but since reduction of greenhouse gasses is necessary regardless of the availability of a convenient energy solution, these are also relevant, and gradually are becoming necessary. By the way - (1.) is already progressing relatively well in lots and lots of countries.

api 6y ago
> That's like saying that cleaning my house means moving the dirt to somebody else's house. No, it's more like moving your cooking and garage wood shop work to someone else's house, taking the results home, and leaving the mess. The dirtiest parts of the production chain required to sustain our lifestyle have largely been offshored, not only because of cheaper labor but because less developed or more totalitarian countries will tolerate the pollution. Yes these things can be done cleaner, but that adds cost that people don't seem to be willing to pay. Americans want all of: (1) high paying good jobs, (2) clean air and water, and (3) cheap manufactured shit. Sorry, but it's worse than a trichotomy. If you pick 3 you have to pass on 1 and 2.

whizzter 6y ago

Nuclear, Solar, Wind and Wave energy are all there if we just were willing to do it (too bad about the Green lobby getting stuck up about Nuclear and the Coal/Oil lobby(+nimbyists) sabotaging everything else).