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A couple of years back, it was announced that the trailer for one of the new Star Wars movies would debut during halftime of Monday Night Football. There's alwa

A couple of years back, it was announced that the trailer for one of the new Star Wars movies would debut during halftime of Monday Night Football. There's always a rush to post stuff like links to new movie trailers "first" on Reddit, so as to get the most fake internet points. I guessed that the trailer would probably get added to the Star Wars YouTube page at around the same time it aired on TV, so I wrote a script to scrape the YouTube page every few seconds, and if a new video was added, submit the link to one of the big subreddits. Sure enough, my hunch was correct, and my submission of the trailer on YouTube wound up being the first. The upvotes and comments poured in, skyrocketing the post briefly to the #1 link on Reddit's front page. This felt pretty cool and resulted in several thousand post karma. I didn't use the program after that, having satisfied my curiosity as to whether or not it would actually work. But it did make me think about just how easy it is to farm karma on Reddit, and how useless it is as a proxy for "trust" or "reputation" or anything other than what it is - fake internet points.

gadders 6y ago
I'm sure you could do similar with certain blogs and posting to HN. EG PG's blog, anything written by Patio11 etc.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  HN is small enough that timing matters even more than on Reddit. So a script would have to take that into consideration. HN also works against duplicate posts, so a post at midnight US eastern time wouldn't see much activity, and then reposts later in the morning would only add to its upvotes rather than getting new (better timed) listings.
  - gadders 6y ago
    But if you were polling, say, PG's blog and posted it here within minutes of it being published you'd accrue all the benefits of the dupes, no?
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      Yes, but limited. It'd depend on whether the mods reupped the post the next morning so it could have a chance of hitting the front page or if a dupe managed to get through (which does happen). Either because the system permits it, or because the submitter added a #nonce to the end. If the mods reupped it, then it'd work out really well for the original submitter. If karma mattered, I suppose it'd be worth trying a few times to see how it worked out.
      - gadders 6y ago
        Yeah, I'm not going to bother with it just for imaginary internet points, but I bet if you wanted to take it further you could analyse the top sites that hit the front page and poll all of them.
ASalazarMX 6y ago
> But it did make me think about just how easy it is to farm karma on Reddit, and how useless it is as a proxy for "trust" or "reputation" or anything other than what it is - fake internet points. More than fake internet points, it's a distilled popularity contest, and we know popular people isn't necessarily trustworthy. Reddit calling it karma gives it more credit than it deserves.
- IggleSniggle 6y ago
  Reddit calling it karma is a throwback to its early days when "upvote posts that meaningfully contribute real value to the discussion, even if you disagree with the content" was a closely held ideal of the reddit community. Sort of closer to how Stack Overflow upvotes are currently intended.
  - FalconSensei 6y ago
    > even if you disagree with the content yeah, the intention was good, but that's not how it works, unfortunately.
    - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      I get unreasonably annoyed at seeing posts get downvoted just because they don’t fit the mainstream opinion, especially if the author clearly put in a lot of effort to articulate their views. Bonus points if there are zero replies too. Anyone who downvotes like that is just lazy, close minded and cowardly. It’s sad that it happens so often.
      - fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
        Yeah, I tend to upvote in this situation, even when I disagree.
      - Shared404 6y ago
        > Bonus points if there are zero replies too. This frustrates me to no end. If someone can type out a long comment explaining their position, the least you can do is reply with why you disagree, in addition/instead of hitting the downvote.
libraryatnight 6y ago
Reddit etc are basically games.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Thank you! I said this on Reddit just a few days ago and got downvoted for it. Specifically, I said that karma was an element of gamification. Of course, they did not like that. :P
adtac 6y ago
I only trust posts on Reddit from usernames that are > 5y old and have less than 3000 karma (unfortunately, this means I wouldn't trust my own account(s) lol). Similar to how 4 star and 2 star reviews on Amazon are infinitely more informational to understand the real pros and cons.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> it did make me think about just how easy it is to farm karma on Reddit I think you put in far more effort in writing that script, than the average karma-farmer puts in. Far easier to just repost photos without attribution.
handmodel 6y ago
Very cool - but in a lot of ways I think that if you believed in the system of Karma then it worked? You posted a high quality post (being first) and assume if you wrote the script you also took time to write an accurate title. While it is arbitrary and noise you beat out those you posted 30 seconds ahead of - the same hours a bunch of people posted home videos, self-promotion, or old clips and didn't get any karma. It is imperfect but the karma system had some desired effect.
grawprog 6y ago
>But it did make me think about just how easy it is to farm karma on Reddit, and how useless it is as a proxy for "trust" or "reputation" or anything other than what it is - fake internet points. I have to say, do people really take karma, upvotes, credit, fake internet points etc. As a measure of trustworthiness? I know reddit pushes this idea but do people actually participating in communities with point systems see those with high karma points or whatever as trustworthy? Personally, i've always assumed people with high amounts of karma or stars are just people who've spent a significant amount of their lives on a site and participated a lot.
- devteambravo 6y ago
  You'd be surprised. Even if you're aware of it, you may start noticing a post you like made be a high-karma person. Confirmation bia sets in, and very soon, your subconscious is engaged. This stuff was build that way by design.
  - grawprog 6y ago
    I dunno, I usually go out of my way to avoid looking at people's scores on places like that. Even my own if I can help it. HN is hard, it's right in the corner there, but I really don't tend to look at anyone else's scores. Same with reddit or other sites I use with those systems. Don't get me wrong, I get the little dopamine rush and enjoy getting points and stuff, but I look at the whole thing the same way as a high score board on a video game or something.
    - thisisnico 6y ago
      I've never looked at anyone's points. It's pointless. Pun intended. It's not a descriptor of anything of value. Essentially I take information on reddit as it is, and use my own critical thinking skills to judge the opinion or value the opinion has to me. Sometimes there is great information, sometimes it's just people trolling. Everything is taken with a grain of salt.
      - 6y ago
jrockway 6y ago
I am not sure this is such a bad thing. You did good work for the community -- they wanted the link to the trailer as quickly as possible and you engineered a solution to give them that. They said "thank you" in return. I understand the "anyone could have done that" or "they could have just waited 3 seconds longer" arguments... but you actually did it, and did it 3 seconds faster than anyone else, so they got a better "product" and you got some internet points. Not a bad deal, in my mind. It's almost a little heartwarming.
sporkologist 6y ago
Are HN karma points fake too? I hope not
- MisterTea 6y ago
  You can trade them in for used pairs of paul grahams underwear.
- criddell 6y ago
  > I hope not Why?
  - sporkologist 6y ago
    I appreciate karma points as a measure of how much my thoughts resonate with others, or don't... They are real enough for me.
- SuperGent 6y ago
  I think that they are a measure of how much you participate in the community here. I've been a member for 6 years, but as I usually lurk, my karma is low. I don't use karma as a measure of other posters but I can see why the management locks certain features for those with higher points.
raxxorrax 6y ago
It "works" as long as it isn't taken too seriously by everyone. I also believe that you can become addicted by karma and some people seem to completely compromise their character in the hunt for more points.
jeromegv 6y ago
Yep. Early on during the famous Rob Ford drug controversy (in Toronto), I realized that any time an article on him would drop with new details on his shady dealings, this would easily gather thousands of upvotes on reddit as the most controversial thing of the day. Soon enough, I started just posting on reddit every time a new news drop would come. Journalists typically share their own articles on twitter as soon as they are online so it wasn't hard to be the first. Ended up with thousands of points in karma for something as easy as copy pasting the URL on reddit as soon as it was available. Never cared about posting articles on reddit before or after those events, but I figured this was an easy way to make my score way high and keep it that way for the next few years.
wdr1 6y ago
> fake internet points What are real internet points

gadders 6y ago

I'm sure you could do similar with certain blogs and posting to HN. EG PG's blog, anything written by Patio11 etc.

Jtsummers 6y ago
HN is small enough that timing matters even more than on Reddit. So a script would have to take that into consideration. HN also works against duplicate posts, so a post at midnight US eastern time wouldn't see much activity, and then reposts later in the morning would only add to its upvotes rather than getting new (better timed) listings.
- gadders 6y ago
  But if you were polling, say, PG's blog and posted it here within minutes of it being published you'd accrue all the benefits of the dupes, no?
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    Yes, but limited. It'd depend on whether the mods reupped the post the next morning so it could have a chance of hitting the front page or if a dupe managed to get through (which does happen). Either because the system permits it, or because the submitter added a #nonce to the end. If the mods reupped it, then it'd work out really well for the original submitter. If karma mattered, I suppose it'd be worth trying a few times to see how it worked out.
    - gadders 6y ago
      Yeah, I'm not going to bother with it just for imaginary internet points, but I bet if you wanted to take it further you could analyse the top sites that hit the front page and poll all of them.

ASalazarMX 6y ago

> But it did make me think about just how easy it is to farm karma on Reddit, and how useless it is as a proxy for "trust" or "reputation" or anything other than what it is - fake internet points. More than fake internet points, it's a distilled popularity contest, and we know popular people isn't necessarily trustworthy. Reddit calling it karma gives it more credit than it deserves.

IggleSniggle 6y ago
Reddit calling it karma is a throwback to its early days when "upvote posts that meaningfully contribute real value to the discussion, even if you disagree with the content" was a closely held ideal of the reddit community. Sort of closer to how Stack Overflow upvotes are currently intended.
- FalconSensei 6y ago
  > even if you disagree with the content yeah, the intention was good, but that's not how it works, unfortunately.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    I get unreasonably annoyed at seeing posts get downvoted just because they don’t fit the mainstream opinion, especially if the author clearly put in a lot of effort to articulate their views. Bonus points if there are zero replies too. Anyone who downvotes like that is just lazy, close minded and cowardly. It’s sad that it happens so often.
    - fiddlerwoaroof 6y ago
      Yeah, I tend to upvote in this situation, even when I disagree.
    - Shared404 6y ago
      > Bonus points if there are zero replies too. This frustrates me to no end. If someone can type out a long comment explaining their position, the least you can do is reply with why you disagree, in addition/instead of hitting the downvote.

libraryatnight 6y ago

Reddit etc are basically games.

pmiller2 6y ago
Thank you! I said this on Reddit just a few days ago and got downvoted for it. Specifically, I said that karma was an element of gamification. Of course, they did not like that. :P

adtac 6y ago

I only trust posts on Reddit from usernames that are > 5y old and have less than 3000 karma (unfortunately, this means I wouldn't trust my own account(s) lol). Similar to how 4 star and 2 star reviews on Amazon are infinitely more informational to understand the real pros and cons.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago

> it did make me think about just how easy it is to farm karma on Reddit I think you put in far more effort in writing that script, than the average karma-farmer puts in. Far easier to just repost photos without attribution.

handmodel 6y ago

Very cool - but in a lot of ways I think that if you believed in the system of Karma then it worked? You posted a high quality post (being first) and assume if you wrote the script you also took time to write an accurate title. While it is arbitrary and noise you beat out those you posted 30 seconds ahead of - the same hours a bunch of people posted home videos, self-promotion, or old clips and didn't get any karma. It is imperfect but the karma system had some desired effect.

grawprog 6y ago

>But it did make me think about just how easy it is to farm karma on Reddit, and how useless it is as a proxy for "trust" or "reputation" or anything other than what it is - fake internet points. I have to say, do people really take karma, upvotes, credit, fake internet points etc. As a measure of trustworthiness? I know reddit pushes this idea but do people actually participating in communities with point systems see those with high karma points or whatever as trustworthy? Personally, i've always assumed people with high amounts of karma or stars are just people who've spent a significant amount of their lives on a site and participated a lot.

devteambravo 6y ago
You'd be surprised. Even if you're aware of it, you may start noticing a post you like made be a high-karma person. Confirmation bia sets in, and very soon, your subconscious is engaged. This stuff was build that way by design.
- grawprog 6y ago
  I dunno, I usually go out of my way to avoid looking at people's scores on places like that. Even my own if I can help it. HN is hard, it's right in the corner there, but I really don't tend to look at anyone else's scores. Same with reddit or other sites I use with those systems. Don't get me wrong, I get the little dopamine rush and enjoy getting points and stuff, but I look at the whole thing the same way as a high score board on a video game or something.
  - thisisnico 6y ago
    I've never looked at anyone's points. It's pointless. Pun intended. It's not a descriptor of anything of value. Essentially I take information on reddit as it is, and use my own critical thinking skills to judge the opinion or value the opinion has to me. Sometimes there is great information, sometimes it's just people trolling. Everything is taken with a grain of salt.
    - 6y ago

jrockway 6y ago

I am not sure this is such a bad thing. You did good work for the community -- they wanted the link to the trailer as quickly as possible and you engineered a solution to give them that. They said "thank you" in return. I understand the "anyone could have done that" or "they could have just waited 3 seconds longer" arguments... but you actually did it, and did it 3 seconds faster than anyone else, so they got a better "product" and you got some internet points. Not a bad deal, in my mind. It's almost a little heartwarming.

sporkologist 6y ago

Are HN karma points fake too? I hope not

MisterTea 6y ago
You can trade them in for used pairs of paul grahams underwear.
criddell 6y ago
> I hope not Why?
- sporkologist 6y ago
  I appreciate karma points as a measure of how much my thoughts resonate with others, or don't... They are real enough for me.
SuperGent 6y ago
I think that they are a measure of how much you participate in the community here. I've been a member for 6 years, but as I usually lurk, my karma is low. I don't use karma as a measure of other posters but I can see why the management locks certain features for those with higher points.

raxxorrax 6y ago

It "works" as long as it isn't taken too seriously by everyone. I also believe that you can become addicted by karma and some people seem to completely compromise their character in the hunt for more points.

jeromegv 6y ago

Yep. Early on during the famous Rob Ford drug controversy (in Toronto), I realized that any time an article on him would drop with new details on his shady dealings, this would easily gather thousands of upvotes on reddit as the most controversial thing of the day. Soon enough, I started just posting on reddit every time a new news drop would come. Journalists typically share their own articles on twitter as soon as they are online so it wasn't hard to be the first. Ended up with thousands of points in karma for something as easy as copy pasting the URL on reddit as soon as it was available. Never cared about posting articles on reddit before or after those events, but I figured this was an easy way to make my score way high and keep it that way for the next few years.

wdr1 6y ago

> fake internet points What are real internet points