4 ms·

> A couple of guesses here Let me guess, it's going to be the mindless propaganda that you've been brainwashed with via tradional and social media. Let's find

by disown 6y ago

> A couple of guesses here Let me guess, it's going to be the mindless propaganda that you've been brainwashed with via tradional and social media. Let's find out. > The Chinese government doesn't want such a huge financial entity owned by foreign owners (even though they have claimed they are allowing more foreign entries in financial sectors). Also, China is suffering from dollar shortage/flight (foreign manufacturing moving out, foreign retailers moving in), and this IPO could exacerbate it If china is facing "dollar shortage", then why would they ban foreign money? Wouldn't they want more dollars? Also, don't people like you claim that china owns us because they own so much of our debt? If so, how can they be experiencing dollar shortage if they own over $1 trillion of US bonds? Also they are not allowing more "foreign entries" in financial sector but they are allowing more foreign entries in retail? Finally, if you think an IPO is going to affect "dollar shortage" issue, then you haven't a clue what you are talking about. What about all the other major tech IPOs, like BABA, which had significant foreign investment. Not to mention all the foreign venture capitalists in china? Why isn't china kicking them out? Has china banned foreign investment/capital? > This is a big no no right now, especially since Xi's dictatorship is wobbly. I thought he was an "emperor" for life. Now his "dictatorship" is wobbly? Be consistent. What's next? You are going to call him a mafia boss? > check out recently delisted Chinese companies in US stock exchanges. Is it misreporting or is it the trade war? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-limits-idUSKBN1WC1VP https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-limits-id... If what you are saying is correct, why isn't the other company affiliated with Jack Ma ( BABA ) delisted? > (if you ask me, why would anyone invest in any mafia pyramid scheme with no guarantee you'll get your money out...) But you were just complaining that "even though they have claimed they are allowing more foreign entries in financial sectors". On the one hand, you are whining that the chinese aren't allowing more financial entries into their market. And then you claim that it's a mafia pyramid scheme that nobody should invest in. Shouldn't you be praising china for keeping "foreign entries" out of their "mafia pyramid scheme"? Once again, be consistent. Another student of peter navarro at the gordon chang's school of propaganda.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
Not too long ago, many people on HN were deliberating on how Ant is a national security threat because Jack Ma is a CCP member, implying that Ant is basically a state-controlled organization. I wonder what those people have to say now. Right now I am neither arguing whether it is or isn't a national security concern. I just want to highlight that people's general understanding of how things work in China is very poor, and that one should be careful with speculations like that. At the very least I think more people should recognize that the Chinese government and the CCP are not monoliths, and that the distance between "the boss of the company is a CCP member" and "the company is state-controlled" is larger than what many think.
- sidlls 6y ago
  It is and it isn’t. China is just special in the way that fraud and corruption commingle with business and government. It isn’t unique by any stretch, but it’s certainly...different. I’ll put it this way: I take an extremely skeptical view of basically anything originating out of China in matters of this sort. I wouldn’t be surprised if “Ant is basically a state run company” and “Ma/Ant aren’t necessarily entirely instruments of the Chinese government” are both true in different contexts. That’s just how screwed up it is.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    In China, support for the US, and western liberalism in general, is dropping. In 2020 it has reached a new low. One of the reasons for this is because mainland Chinese people feel that the western world doesn't judge them fairly, that the western world will never accept them. Your comment is a good representation of what they're thinking of. Your comment basically comes down to "China can do no good". It doesn't matter what China's concrete actions are — in the end, an interpretation for those actions will be found in order to fit the narrative that China is sinister. You are in your full right to do this. But such an attitude has implications for the other party. Why should Chinese people support western opinions, if they will never be accepted no matter what they do? Sometimes, China is willing to concede on a few issues in order to gain improved relations. But if improving relations is impossible, no matter how many concessions, then why should they concede anything? If one is treated like an enemy anyway, then one may as well become a real enemy, since there is no reputation to be gained. For example, I've been arguing for a while that one of the reasons why they went ahead with the Hong Kong National Security Law after a year, is because they realized that they can't gain a better relationship with the US by not introducing the security law, so may as well do it and gain more social stability. But many people can't comprehend this idea because they're too stuck on the "China bad" narrative. I am not arguing that China is all good — of course it isn't, China has lots of issues. But being skeptical of everything? In this context, excessive cynicism is dangerous. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I fear that some day all this leads to increased polarization, and a hot war.
osobear 6y ago
> I thought he was an "emperor" for life. Now his "dictatorship" is wobbly? Be consistent. What's next? You are going to call him a mafia boss? Xi did arrange himself a lifetime position. And yes, a dictatorship's stability can fluctuate.
- disown 6y ago
  > Xi did arrange himself a lifetime position. He did or the political party did. Also removing term limits isn't the same as giving oneself a lifetime position. Lots of countries don't have term limits. Like Germany for example. Nobody would claim merkel is a dictator. > And yes, a dictatorship's stability can fluctuate. Right. His dictatorship is so wobbly that he made himself emperor. Which is it? There is lot you can criticize china, unfortunately, the nonsense you see on social media really misses the target. Whatever happened to the pathetic "winnie the pooh" nonsense?
  - seemack 6y ago
    > Right. His dictatorship is so wobbly that he made himself emperor. Which is it? Are you are being deliberately obtuse? It's entirely reasonable that his strength and stability could change from "strong" enough to remove his term limits to "wobbly". Or it could have fluctuated towards even stronger. It doesn't matter, the point is that stability is not a constant so your objection doesn't really make sense.
coolgod 6y ago
Schrödinger's China: China is fake communist country, except when they try to regulate financial markets to better serve the masses.
- octoberfranklin 6y ago
  Sinohagen Interpretation.

by disown 6y ago

FooBarWidget 6y ago

Not too long ago, many people on HN were deliberating on how Ant is a national security threat because Jack Ma is a CCP member, implying that Ant is basically a state-controlled organization. I wonder what those people have to say now. Right now I am neither arguing whether it is or isn't a national security concern. I just want to highlight that people's general understanding of how things work in China is very poor, and that one should be careful with speculations like that. At the very least I think more people should recognize that the Chinese government and the CCP are not monoliths, and that the distance between "the boss of the company is a CCP member" and "the company is state-controlled" is larger than what many think.

sidlls 6y ago
It is and it isn’t. China is just special in the way that fraud and corruption commingle with business and government. It isn’t unique by any stretch, but it’s certainly...different. I’ll put it this way: I take an extremely skeptical view of basically anything originating out of China in matters of this sort. I wouldn’t be surprised if “Ant is basically a state run company” and “Ma/Ant aren’t necessarily entirely instruments of the Chinese government” are both true in different contexts. That’s just how screwed up it is.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  In China, support for the US, and western liberalism in general, is dropping. In 2020 it has reached a new low. One of the reasons for this is because mainland Chinese people feel that the western world doesn't judge them fairly, that the western world will never accept them. Your comment is a good representation of what they're thinking of. Your comment basically comes down to "China can do no good". It doesn't matter what China's concrete actions are — in the end, an interpretation for those actions will be found in order to fit the narrative that China is sinister. You are in your full right to do this. But such an attitude has implications for the other party. Why should Chinese people support western opinions, if they will never be accepted no matter what they do? Sometimes, China is willing to concede on a few issues in order to gain improved relations. But if improving relations is impossible, no matter how many concessions, then why should they concede anything? If one is treated like an enemy anyway, then one may as well become a real enemy, since there is no reputation to be gained. For example, I've been arguing for a while that one of the reasons why they went ahead with the Hong Kong National Security Law after a year, is because they realized that they can't gain a better relationship with the US by not introducing the security law, so may as well do it and gain more social stability. But many people can't comprehend this idea because they're too stuck on the "China bad" narrative. I am not arguing that China is all good — of course it isn't, China has lots of issues. But being skeptical of everything? In this context, excessive cynicism is dangerous. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I fear that some day all this leads to increased polarization, and a hot war.

osobear 6y ago

> I thought he was an "emperor" for life. Now his "dictatorship" is wobbly? Be consistent. What's next? You are going to call him a mafia boss? Xi did arrange himself a lifetime position. And yes, a dictatorship's stability can fluctuate.

disown 6y ago
> Xi did arrange himself a lifetime position. He did or the political party did. Also removing term limits isn't the same as giving oneself a lifetime position. Lots of countries don't have term limits. Like Germany for example. Nobody would claim merkel is a dictator. > And yes, a dictatorship's stability can fluctuate. Right. His dictatorship is so wobbly that he made himself emperor. Which is it? There is lot you can criticize china, unfortunately, the nonsense you see on social media really misses the target. Whatever happened to the pathetic "winnie the pooh" nonsense?
- seemack 6y ago
  > Right. His dictatorship is so wobbly that he made himself emperor. Which is it? Are you are being deliberately obtuse? It's entirely reasonable that his strength and stability could change from "strong" enough to remove his term limits to "wobbly". Or it could have fluctuated towards even stronger. It doesn't matter, the point is that stability is not a constant so your objection doesn't really make sense.

coolgod 6y ago

Schrödinger's China: China is fake communist country, except when they try to regulate financial markets to better serve the masses.

octoberfranklin 6y ago
Sinohagen Interpretation.