4 ms·

Do you have any examples of "'equality' propaganda"?

by u10 6y ago

dx87 6y ago
The "wage gap" is the one I see most often. It's presented in a way that makes it seem like women get paid significantly less than men, but in reality there's almost no gap when you account for the same position and experience level.
- caleb-allen 6y ago
  Why is there a gap in position and experience level?
  - ARandomerDude 6y ago
    Maternity is probably the greatest factor. I know several women who wanted to stay home after having a kid. Suppose they return to work in 5-10 years, they're less experienced than others of the same age, and have stale professional contacts.
    - Spivak 6y ago
      The problem is that you would expect that over billions of people maternity and paternity would average out but it doesn't because of societal pressure. Men who stay at home are "low status" and women who don't are bad mothers. The problem is the social dynamic that creates these "preferences."
      - ghostcluster 6y ago
        It is not the present social dynamic that creates these "preferences". This set of characteristics has evolved over millions of years, beginning before humans had even branched off the evolutionary tree. > In a study of 34 rhesus monkeys, for example, males strongly preferred toys with wheels over plush toys, whereas females found plush toys likable. It would be tough to argue that the monkeys’ parents bought them sex-typed toys or that simian society encourages its male offspring to play more with trucks. I'd urge anyone who's questioning this to read the overview of the science from Stanford's School of Medicine: https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-...
      - ARandomerDude 6y ago
        Actually, in the instances I'm aware of it was the reverse: family and society pressured the women to return to work but they didn't want to. If a mother wants to stay home, why not just respect her preference without questioning her "real" motives?
        Spivak 6y ago
        I think you're confusing the preferences of a woman and the preferences of women. It should be perfectly normal for either mother or father to stay home with their kids if they want and that preference should be respected absolutely. But then you have to zoom out a little bit and ask why you see so few men become stay at home fathers or househusbands compared to women and is the explanation a problem? Why don't men feel like they can be homemakers or take on the primary caregiver role for their kids? Why do so many women take on those roles? If the answer is really always voluntary preference then maybe it's not an issue but that's unfortunately not the case and the pressure and judgement imparted by society for people to conform to their "roles" creates this dynamic and is bad for everyone.
      - globular-toast 6y ago
        Instead of societal pressure try billions of years of evolution and the fact that women physically carry the child for 9 months before their body is utterly changed by giving birth. Societal pressures... For crying out loud. Sometimes things are as obvious as they seem.
- Miner49er 6y ago
  Women do get paid significantly less than men though. The statistic doesn't lie. We've decided to pay less for the jobs that women typically take. And they are less likely to get the same positions as men and are also therefore denied the same experience.
  - go13 6y ago
    - not women, but mothers get significantly less payed on average than the rest of people, in fact, young women are paid more than young men. - women on average prefer to work with people and men - with things. Working with things scales well (like IT), working with people - doesnt scale well (nurse, teacher, doctor).
    - Spivak 6y ago
      You're missing the forest fort the trees. * Mothers are paid significantly less on average but fathers aren't and there are deep cultural dynamics that perpetuate this. There isn't a fundamental reason this should be the case. * Women (and men obviously too but we're talking about women) are conditioned constantly from birth to have those preferences and have to deal with pressure from everyone in their lives to not deviate from what's expected from them. (Same with men too -- try being a manly man who wants to bake wedding cakes or go into fashion.) And then when women try to be mold breakers and go into "masculine fields" they're pushed away and become lower status.
      - go13 6y ago
        i'm not interested to argue about the first point. Re the 2nd - I can come up with an argument supporting my theory that it is not only a social construct as you imply, but I will invite you first to prove your theory that this is ONLY a social conditioning of a woman that makes her make these choices, and there is no biology involved into that (Or very little). To shade a shadow on your theory (as i assume this is a social construct theory) i recall some info that female orangutans were more interested in dolls and males - in more male toys similar to humans. Also, in Scandinavian countries that ran out their way to make their societies egalitarian, even more women were choosing "traditional female" jobs than what the "social constructionists" were trying to achieve by their "gender equality" agenda. But i will not argue about all of this as it is all well known and documented and people just need to make a 3h research on the internet.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  In fact, in instances where this has been examined, men have been underpaid: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-... Note that this study was done only after women complained about being paid less.
- u10 6y ago
  It's rather specious reasoning at it's surface, as adding additional controls that reduces variance in the model doesn't discount that there is discrimination within the labour market. That is to say, the discrimination happens elsewhere in the chain, possibly at at the education level (women pushed out of higher income degree streams), the on the job mentor discrimination (women are less likely to be 'picked' to be mentored), or due to the lack of a comprehensive childcare support system pushes women to lower income jobs or do not have the ability to rise in those jobs. There are no simple answers as "hey, when we control for x, y, z the wage gap disappears", as these are almost inscrutably complex systems.
raxxorrax 6y ago
I wouldn't call it propaganda and I think the perception of the prevalence of gender discussion is just because these topics are clicked, which ensures the topic is further expanded. The discussions are interesting though because they are an elegant mix of the most alluring and repelling opinions. But to the topic, this "propaganda" often feels misdirected in its ambition to lessen gender differences as in penalties on job markets and other forms of discrepancies while continuing to separate men and women as if they were complete distinct creatures. The strategy seems strangely analogous to rubbing that mosquito bite in hope it will stop itching.
- u10 6y ago
  Different groups have different issues that must be addressed. There are few 'one size fits all' solutions. People do want to be treated as peers and equals, but unfortunately there are intrinsic issues that inhibit that. For example, a person with a black sounding name will, on average, will face more difficulty in getting a job compared to a person with a white sounding name, all else equal. It is not particularly productive to say 'if we treated everyone the same they wouldn't have this issue'.

Do you have any examples of "'equality' propaganda"?

by u10 6y ago

Do you have any examples of "'equality' propaganda"?

dx87 6y ago

The "wage gap" is the one I see most often. It's presented in a way that makes it seem like women get paid significantly less than men, but in reality there's almost no gap when you account for the same position and experience level.

caleb-allen 6y ago
Why is there a gap in position and experience level?
- ARandomerDude 6y ago
  Maternity is probably the greatest factor. I know several women who wanted to stay home after having a kid. Suppose they return to work in 5-10 years, they're less experienced than others of the same age, and have stale professional contacts.
  - Spivak 6y ago
    The problem is that you would expect that over billions of people maternity and paternity would average out but it doesn't because of societal pressure. Men who stay at home are "low status" and women who don't are bad mothers. The problem is the social dynamic that creates these "preferences."
    - ghostcluster 6y ago
      It is not the present social dynamic that creates these "preferences". This set of characteristics has evolved over millions of years, beginning before humans had even branched off the evolutionary tree. > In a study of 34 rhesus monkeys, for example, males strongly preferred toys with wheels over plush toys, whereas females found plush toys likable. It would be tough to argue that the monkeys’ parents bought them sex-typed toys or that simian society encourages its male offspring to play more with trucks. I'd urge anyone who's questioning this to read the overview of the science from Stanford's School of Medicine: https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-...
    - ARandomerDude 6y ago
      Actually, in the instances I'm aware of it was the reverse: family and society pressured the women to return to work but they didn't want to. If a mother wants to stay home, why not just respect her preference without questioning her "real" motives?
      - Spivak 6y ago
        I think you're confusing the preferences of a woman and the preferences of women. It should be perfectly normal for either mother or father to stay home with their kids if they want and that preference should be respected absolutely. But then you have to zoom out a little bit and ask why you see so few men become stay at home fathers or househusbands compared to women and is the explanation a problem? Why don't men feel like they can be homemakers or take on the primary caregiver role for their kids? Why do so many women take on those roles? If the answer is really always voluntary preference then maybe it's not an issue but that's unfortunately not the case and the pressure and judgement imparted by society for people to conform to their "roles" creates this dynamic and is bad for everyone.
    - globular-toast 6y ago
      Instead of societal pressure try billions of years of evolution and the fact that women physically carry the child for 9 months before their body is utterly changed by giving birth. Societal pressures... For crying out loud. Sometimes things are as obvious as they seem.
Miner49er 6y ago
Women do get paid significantly less than men though. The statistic doesn't lie. We've decided to pay less for the jobs that women typically take. And they are less likely to get the same positions as men and are also therefore denied the same experience.
- go13 6y ago
  - not women, but mothers get significantly less payed on average than the rest of people, in fact, young women are paid more than young men. - women on average prefer to work with people and men - with things. Working with things scales well (like IT), working with people - doesnt scale well (nurse, teacher, doctor).
  - Spivak 6y ago
    You're missing the forest fort the trees. * Mothers are paid significantly less on average but fathers aren't and there are deep cultural dynamics that perpetuate this. There isn't a fundamental reason this should be the case. * Women (and men obviously too but we're talking about women) are conditioned constantly from birth to have those preferences and have to deal with pressure from everyone in their lives to not deviate from what's expected from them. (Same with men too -- try being a manly man who wants to bake wedding cakes or go into fashion.) And then when women try to be mold breakers and go into "masculine fields" they're pushed away and become lower status.
    - go13 6y ago
      i'm not interested to argue about the first point. Re the 2nd - I can come up with an argument supporting my theory that it is not only a social construct as you imply, but I will invite you first to prove your theory that this is ONLY a social conditioning of a woman that makes her make these choices, and there is no biology involved into that (Or very little). To shade a shadow on your theory (as i assume this is a social construct theory) i recall some info that female orangutans were more interested in dolls and males - in more male toys similar to humans. Also, in Scandinavian countries that ran out their way to make their societies egalitarian, even more women were choosing "traditional female" jobs than what the "social constructionists" were trying to achieve by their "gender equality" agenda. But i will not argue about all of this as it is all well known and documented and people just need to make a 3h research on the internet.
globular-toast 6y ago
In fact, in instances where this has been examined, men have been underpaid: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-... Note that this study was done only after women complained about being paid less.
u10 6y ago
It's rather specious reasoning at it's surface, as adding additional controls that reduces variance in the model doesn't discount that there is discrimination within the labour market. That is to say, the discrimination happens elsewhere in the chain, possibly at at the education level (women pushed out of higher income degree streams), the on the job mentor discrimination (women are less likely to be 'picked' to be mentored), or due to the lack of a comprehensive childcare support system pushes women to lower income jobs or do not have the ability to rise in those jobs. There are no simple answers as "hey, when we control for x, y, z the wage gap disappears", as these are almost inscrutably complex systems.

raxxorrax 6y ago

I wouldn't call it propaganda and I think the perception of the prevalence of gender discussion is just because these topics are clicked, which ensures the topic is further expanded. The discussions are interesting though because they are an elegant mix of the most alluring and repelling opinions. But to the topic, this "propaganda" often feels misdirected in its ambition to lessen gender differences as in penalties on job markets and other forms of discrepancies while continuing to separate men and women as if they were complete distinct creatures. The strategy seems strangely analogous to rubbing that mosquito bite in hope it will stop itching.

u10 6y ago
Different groups have different issues that must be addressed. There are few 'one size fits all' solutions. People do want to be treated as peers and equals, but unfortunately there are intrinsic issues that inhibit that. For example, a person with a black sounding name will, on average, will face more difficulty in getting a job compared to a person with a white sounding name, all else equal. It is not particularly productive to say 'if we treated everyone the same they wouldn't have this issue'.