6 ms·

Are people not fed up with the "equality" propaganda produced by those who neither properly studied math at school, nor understand the fundamentals of statistic

• earthtobishop 6y ago
  Yup!
• u10 6y ago
  Do you have any examples of "'equality' propaganda"?
  • dx87 6y ago
    The "wage gap" is the one I see most often. It's presented in a way that makes it seem like women get paid significantly less than men, but in reality there's almost no gap when you account for the same position and experience level.
    • caleb-allen 6y ago
      Why is there a gap in position and experience level?
      • ARandomerDude 6y ago
        Maternity is probably the greatest factor. I know several women who wanted to stay home after having a kid. Suppose they return to work in 5-10 years, they're less experienced than others of the same age, and have stale professional contacts.
        • Spivak 6y ago
          The problem is that you would expect that over billions of people maternity and paternity would average out but it doesn't because of societal pressure. Men who stay at home are "low status" and women who don't are bad mothers. The problem is the social dynamic that creates these "preferences."
          • ghostcluster 6y ago
            It is not the present social dynamic that creates these "preferences". This set of characteristics has evolved over millions of years, beginning before humans had even branched off the evolutionary tree. > In a study of 34 rhesus monkeys, for example, males strongly preferred toys with wheels over plush toys, whereas females found plush toys likable. It would be tough to argue that the monkeys’ parents bought them sex-typed toys or that simian society encourages its male offspring to play more with trucks. I'd urge anyone who's questioning this to read the overview of the science from Stanford's School of Medicine: https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-...
          • ARandomerDude 6y ago
            Actually, in the instances I'm aware of it was the reverse: family and society pressured the women to return to work but they didn't want to. If a mother wants to stay home, why not just respect her preference without questioning her "real" motives?
            • Spivak 6y ago
              I think you're confusing the preferences of a woman and the preferences of women. It should be perfectly normal for either mother or father to stay home with their kids if they want and that preference should be respected absolutely. But then you have to zoom out a little bit and ask why you see so few men become stay at home fathers or househusbands compared to women and is the explanation a problem? Why don't men feel like they can be homemakers or take on the primary caregiver role for their kids? Why do so many women take on those roles? If the answer is really always voluntary preference then maybe it's not an issue but that's unfortunately not the case and the pressure and judgement imparted by society for people to conform to their "roles" creates this dynamic and is bad for everyone.
          • globular-toast 6y ago
            Instead of societal pressure try billions of years of evolution and the fact that women physically carry the child for 9 months before their body is utterly changed by giving birth. Societal pressures... For crying out loud. Sometimes things are as obvious as they seem.
    • Miner49er 6y ago
      Women do get paid significantly less than men though. The statistic doesn't lie. We've decided to pay less for the jobs that women typically take. And they are less likely to get the same positions as men and are also therefore denied the same experience.
      • go13 6y ago
        - not women, but mothers get significantly less payed on average than the rest of people, in fact, young women are paid more than young men. - women on average prefer to work with people and men - with things. Working with things scales well (like IT), working with people - doesnt scale well (nurse, teacher, doctor).
        • Spivak 6y ago
          You're missing the forest fort the trees. * Mothers are paid significantly less on average but fathers aren't and there are deep cultural dynamics that perpetuate this. There isn't a fundamental reason this should be the case. * Women (and men obviously too but we're talking about women) are conditioned constantly from birth to have those preferences and have to deal with pressure from everyone in their lives to not deviate from what's expected from them. (Same with men too -- try being a manly man who wants to bake wedding cakes or go into fashion.) And then when women try to be mold breakers and go into "masculine fields" they're pushed away and become lower status.
          • go13 6y ago
            i'm not interested to argue about the first point. Re the 2nd - I can come up with an argument supporting my theory that it is not only a social construct as you imply, but I will invite you first to prove your theory that this is ONLY a social conditioning of a woman that makes her make these choices, and there is no biology involved into that (Or very little). To shade a shadow on your theory (as i assume this is a social construct theory) i recall some info that female orangutans were more interested in dolls and males - in more male toys similar to humans. Also, in Scandinavian countries that ran out their way to make their societies egalitarian, even more women were choosing "traditional female" jobs than what the "social constructionists" were trying to achieve by their "gender equality" agenda. But i will not argue about all of this as it is all well known and documented and people just need to make a 3h research on the internet.
    • globular-toast 6y ago
      In fact, in instances where this has been examined, men have been underpaid: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-... Note that this study was done only after women complained about being paid less.
    • u10 6y ago
      It's rather specious reasoning at it's surface, as adding additional controls that reduces variance in the model doesn't discount that there is discrimination within the labour market. That is to say, the discrimination happens elsewhere in the chain, possibly at at the education level (women pushed out of higher income degree streams), the on the job mentor discrimination (women are less likely to be 'picked' to be mentored), or due to the lack of a comprehensive childcare support system pushes women to lower income jobs or do not have the ability to rise in those jobs. There are no simple answers as "hey, when we control for x, y, z the wage gap disappears", as these are almost inscrutably complex systems.
  • raxxorrax 6y ago
    I wouldn't call it propaganda and I think the perception of the prevalence of gender discussion is just because these topics are clicked, which ensures the topic is further expanded. The discussions are interesting though because they are an elegant mix of the most alluring and repelling opinions. But to the topic, this "propaganda" often feels misdirected in its ambition to lessen gender differences as in penalties on job markets and other forms of discrepancies while continuing to separate men and women as if they were complete distinct creatures. The strategy seems strangely analogous to rubbing that mosquito bite in hope it will stop itching.
    • u10 6y ago
      Different groups have different issues that must be addressed. There are few 'one size fits all' solutions. People do want to be treated as peers and equals, but unfortunately there are intrinsic issues that inhibit that. For example, a person with a black sounding name will, on average, will face more difficulty in getting a job compared to a person with a white sounding name, all else equal. It is not particularly productive to say 'if we treated everyone the same they wouldn't have this issue'.
• MyHypatia 6y ago
  There is plenty of work by those who have properly studied math and correctly apply statistics and repeatedly find that unequal hiring and compensation practices reward things other than merit.
  • RIMR 6y ago
    This guy says "math and statistics" the same way Ben Shapiro says "logic and reason". Or when transphobes talk about "biology". He doesn't understand what he's talking about, but he's convinced that those are magical words that automatically reinforce his existing beliefs.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  • cvbcvbcvbcvbc 6y ago
    Not really. There is a huge replication crisis. Even the famous "anonymous orchestra auditions" have been debunked afaik.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
• RIMR 6y ago
  Not at all. What I am tired of is white men who insist that equality is somehow unimportant, or that the existence of unfair biases is an acceptable part of the professional environment, and who feel the need to speak out and complain every time someone points out that the world is less forgiving to people who don't look like them.
  • gnarbarian 6y ago
    You sound like a bigot.
  • chance_state 6y ago
    Grrrrr, white men bad.
    • go13 6y ago
      As a white man, who came to Britain from Ukraine on visa, the poorest country in Europe, whose parents earn 300$/month total, whose grandma was starving during the 1933 famine, and whose nation had slavery by 1861, whose language was banned on multiple occasions, (and other things like my accent etc) where do I stand in my white male privilege in comparison others who were born in the UK and US?
      • gedy 6y ago
        Honestly in some groups your comments would be taken as evidence of "white fragility" and that you are not on "the right side of the issues".
        • go13 6y ago
          Probably they would be taken. Because people's moral stance is when it comes to me or my group - that's sexism or racism, but when it comes to others - that's "fragility" and sexism or other discrimination "can work in my favour only". In other words, hypocrisy
      • Raphmedia 6y ago
• onion2k 6y ago
  One of the authors is Sonia Kang, https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?user=AYjR5XIAAAAJ&hl=en https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?user=AYjR5XIAAAAJ&hl=..., who has a couple of thousand citations of her academic papers. If she was getting the math wrong or making fundamental statistical errors I don't think people would be quite so keen to build on her research. I think your ad hominem attack is a bit unjustified. You can disagree with the research without suggesting the author is incapable of making a cogent argument.
  • arkitaip 6y ago
    You are giving parent way too much credit if you think he even read the damn article. It's just the most useless gut reaction transformed into a drive by comment.
    • tachyonbeam 6y ago
      Nobody should draw any conclusions based on the headline or the summary linked here, but the actual research paper is behind a 30 dollar paywall...
  • seieste 6y ago
    In general citation count is not a useful metric to determine research quality (separate from whether it applies here) e.g. Brian Wansink's citation count is 33,969 and h-index is 85 [0]. Over a dozen of his papers were retracted after finding statistical anomalies: "These problems included conclusions not supported by the data presented, data and figures duplicated across papers, questionable data including impossible values, incorrect and inappropriate statistical analyses, and "p-hacking". As of 2020 Wansink has had 18 of his research papers retracted (one twice), seven others have received an expression of concern, and 15 others have been corrected. On September 20, 2018, Cornell determined that Wansink had committed scientific misconduct and removed him from research and teaching activities; he resigned effective June 30, 2019." [0] https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ME4wxCUAAAAJ&hl=en&oi=ao https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ME4wxCUAAAAJ&hl=en... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Wansink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Wansink
• bluntfang 6y ago
  I'm personally fed up with the "racism and sexism don't exist" propaganda.
  • carierx1 6y ago
    A society will naturally embrace those who are productive and naturally reject those who are destructive or parasitic. That is what you call racism.
• simonh 6y ago
  I don't think this is a fair criticism, and as it's phrased so generally I doubt it's based on any actual evaluation of the article to see whether it's making any errors with respect to correlation or causation. I do accept that the majority of the pay gap between men and women are attributable to factors within the control of employees. Choices about having children and taking career breaks, willingness to work long hours, unwillingness to take dangerous jobs. These are all reasons why in general a lot of women earn less than a lot of men. This article isn't making general claims though. It's evaluating specific indicators of bias in specific circumstances, and on the face of it seems to have a compelling case. It does seem wrong that women using assertive terms should suffer a lower likelihood of getting an interview or role than men that use the same language. The fact is that in some sectors for some roles there is good evidence of bias in selection. This is bad for applicants and bad for employers who are missing out on good candidates. The fact that some other industries may even have a pro-female bias doesn't excuse anything either. I can accept that and want to do something about it, while still being a Jordan Peterson fan and without being a neo-Marxist social justice warrior.