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The rise of platonic co-parenting
- tharne 6y agoIf there's one phenomenon that marks the modern era more than any other, it's the replacement of the relational with the transactional.
- spaetzleesser 6y agoYou could argue that in the past a lot of relationships were also transactional. In many circles marriage was more about securing inheritance. Marriage out of love is a relatively new concept.
- salmonfamine 6y agoThat was really only true for a narrow segment of the population that had access to wealth though.
- empthought 6y agoA small inheritance/dowry is still an inheritance/dowry. Also the transaction of a woman providing a man with children, in exchange for economic and physical security, is as old as civilization.
- R0b0t1 6y agoMarriage was a transaction for stability and security for the lower class as well.
- Daishiman 6y agoPoor young women literally had no alternative to marriage beyond a few ill-paying professions.
- username90 6y agoMarriage was mostly a contract where the man say he is responsible for the kids born by the woman and the woman say she wont have kids with other men.
- fcantournet 6y agoNo, it was actually true of a very large segment of population at least in the 18th to early 20th centuries in europe / NA : small farmers a.k.a 70-90% of the population
- Inthenameofmine 6y agoFor most people in most societies it always was. It just used to be surplus value extraction from the wife for the husband and clan, and later the capitalist employing the husband. With the increase in bargaining power of women in society extraction of surplus value bacame more two-way and the capitalist class was able to extract surplus value directly from the women instead of roundabout through the men. Hence both partners need to work to have the same living standard as before with just one partner working.
- TimTheTinker 6y agoProbably a regression from Judeo-Christian values, where personal relationships and the character required to live relationally within a community are valued far above transactional or contractual relationships.
- paulryanrogers 6y agoIndeed, let's go back to stoning, slavery, and forcing women to drink dusty water to assuage their husband's jealousy.
- TimTheTinker 6y agoThose specific commands you name were given to people who were from a far worse background, and were a huge step up from what they had become accustomed to in their 400 years as slaves in ancient Egypt. As Jesus says about the Mosaic divorce law, "Moses gave you this law because your hearts were hard. But it was not always this way from the beginning." If you want to criticize Judeo-Christian values, I suggest you start from a modern Jewish or Christian understanding of the values or scriptures in question.
- paulryanrogers 6y agoPolygamy modern enough for you? Look you can cherry pick all you want. But I've wasted a few decades trying to work through the inconsistencies and woo. Give me some scientific evidence instead of appealing to authority and nostalgia.
- TimTheTinker 6y agoYou were criticizing certain scriptural passages with what seemed to be an obvious lack of understanding of how those passages are understood by modern Jews and Christians. The comment about polygamy is along the same lines -- where it occurs in scriptural narrative, it is not condoned, merely reported truthfully. Modern Jews and Christians don't understand scripture (in whole or in part) to be condoning the practice at all > Give me some scientific evidence instead of appealing to authority and nostalgia. I have appealed to neither authority nor nostalgia, unless you want to call talking about scripture an appeal to authority. The veracity of scripture is a basic assumption in Jewish and Christian belief, and I'll leave it at that. This thread isn't a good place to debate that topic.
- astura 6y agoModern? Um, arranged marriages, child marriages, and forced marriages are far from modern yet they are inherently transactional and were extremely common in the past. Hardly modern. We even consider it "tradition" to have a woman's father walk her down the isle during a wedding ceremony to "give her away" - representing a transfer of property from father to husband.
- agumonkey 6y agoI'd like to read about the past 'forced' marriages.. I think we're being led to a mostly financial contract whereas I presume the human context of the past made these things way more emotional than it appears to be.
- watwut 6y agoForced marriage is the one that is forced by someone and you don't want it. There is no reason to put that word into quotes. The fact that someone is getting financial advantage from that does not make it not forced if one of partners does not want it.
- agumonkey 6y agoIt's naive to me. Even today you're 'forced' to an extent. You don't marry someone that won't integrate. I think back in the days kids immaturity was just too dangerous to let them marry whoever at the risk of destroying the family. I've seen that even today, when people are free there are long term costs. 1000 years ago it seems obvious that this was a matter of life and death and picking who will your kids marry was both logical and emotional optimum.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- TimTheTinker 6y ago> "give her away" - representing a transfer of property from father to husband. I doubt you're a father of a daughter you love dearly, or I think you'd see it differently. Have you ever heard a dad half-joking about how reluctant he felt to let his daughter go out on her first date? (Or jokes fathers sometimes tell about cleaning guns when first meeting her new boyfriend, etc.) There is a "letting go" involved, and especially so when she gets married: someone else will be the first man in her life now. "Giving her away" in the wedding ceremony symbolizes that "letting go" that the dad does--hopefully willingly, joyfully, and knowing the man she's marrying will love her dearly.
- klipt 6y agoI think marriage for practical reasons is a very ancient phenomenon. Of course most people prefer to find someone who is both a good practical partner and attractive to them romantically, but if you can't do both probably better to have the practical connection without the romance than the opposite.
- einpoklum 6y agoI would qualify that and say: Relations are becoming more shallow and more transactional. Co-parenting with someone is still a long-term relationship, albeit every person in that relationship (including the child) is less close to every other person in it.
- naruvimama 6y agoI would not be too worried. We had internet dating take over. As a guy on dating sites it is apparent that love is already transactional and has always been. Height, baldness, race, nationality seem to be the primary checkboxes for most women, shockingly even your education, work or usefulness to society rank pretty low.
- redvenom 6y agoMan, this is messed up. I mean, if it works, it works...but I wonder if this is a symptom that traditional relationships are becoming harder because of our changing lifestyle. Or maybe they were always hard, but now it's just easier to see how hard because of the internet. I don't know, but it just doesn't feel right to me.
- k__ 6y agoWhen I look at all the messed up families I met in my life, co-parenting seems like a good alternative.
- netfl0 6y agoThis article presents a false dichotomy. There is nothing preventing these two people from hating each other and having some divorce-like custody hearing. It may even be more likely, there is no data on this new “approach”.
- anonytrary 6y agoCommitment is quickly becoming a foreign term, but I don't think that applies to the people in the article. > “Except we could be totally honest about wanting to have a kid soon, without the goofiness and flirting of a first date. You’re looking to achieve a common goal.” Here's a crazy idea: IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW YOU MEET PEOPLE! If both are willing, then that's that! It sounds like they are ready to raise a family and commit because literally YOLO. There are plenty of people who are old and haven't found someone they organically vibe with. In my opinion, this isn't any different than an arranged marriage, so I feel like your fear/discomfort makes little sense here.
- enkid 6y agoI don't understand the use of the word Platonic in the title. The couple described doesn't seem to match either the ancient or the contemporary definition of Platonic love.
- visarga 6y agoYep, platonic is love without sex, this is parenting without spouse love.
- hutzlibu 6y agoIt is parenting without sex, though.
- evancox100 6y agoExcept the couple conceived naturally
- hutzlibu 6y agoYeah. After the women had to get drunk to bring herself to do it. And it was not parenting then. Parenting comes later. And this seems to be without sex by design. (even though I would assume it still happens with some "couples")
- panzagl 6y agoNah, that's regular parenting.
- andrewmcwatters 6y agolmao...
- AstralStorm 6y agoYes, there's nothing platonic in this, it's a standard arranged marriage. Unless there's no marriage involved but there better be some legal arrangement or things can go south really quick with becoming a single parent.
- nkingsy 6y agoThe article says the majority of them don’t live together. My parents had a terrible divorce, but I remember shuttling between two homes, two beds, two sets of clothes being the worst part.
- k__ 6y agoFor me the worst part was that my father didn't want me in his life.
- chordalkeyboard 6y agohe sounds like a real piece of shit and maybe you were better off without him around as much. although I'm aware that there are downsides to that.
- k__ 6y agoProbably. I mostly like who I am as a person, but some things got messed up along the way.
- chordalkeyboard 6y agoNobody is perfect. Lots of people don't like who they are, so you have that going for you.
- nkingsy 6y agoMy dad sued my mom for less custody, but it was mostly about my autistic sister (so I told myself). He’s a legendary school teacher where I live, so it’s real fun when people come up to us and ask me what it was like having such an amazing dad.
- k__ 6y agoMy father always said he only wanted to take my sister with him, not me. He always tried to frame it as a time problem. "I can't take both kids, I don't have the time. If you want me to care more for the kids, give me the girl!" My mother wouldn't have it. She told him he should take us both or none of us. So he took none of us. While he didn't take much care of any of us, he showed up at my sisters doorstep once every few years and gifted her expensive stuff. I never understood him...
- hapless 6y agoThe article describes “Platonic” co-parenting in which the parents have sex with each other repeatedly on an ongoing basis, conceive a child, bear it to term, and parent together. I don’t know what’s “platonic” here. Sounds like regular ass family formation to me. I must have missed the point.
- k__ 6y agoI think, the "regular ass family formation" would include the parents having sex even after the got all the children they want.
- AstralStorm 6y agoThe difference here is it works a lot more like an arranged marriage. (Except it's arranged by first parties.) It's not usually based on hormones and propinquity. The rise of it is probably caused by people living farther away and working overly long hours, so the standard random dating no longer works.
- watermelon59 6y agoI would love it if that became more of a thing - arranged marriages organized by first parties. Personally I don't need the flirting and dating and romance and all that stuff. What I need is someone who shares my values and is willing to enter into a marriage as a social contract. Being married has a ton of personal and social benefits, and having a spouse who brings in as much income as you works like an insurance policy of sorts in a number of life situations (e.g. long-term job loss). Obviously there needs to be chemistry if both parties are interested in a monogamic sexual relationship being part of their marriage. But if both parties are willing to dispense with all the dating rituals, that can be determined in seconds.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tartoran 6y agoDuring those ‘dating rituals’ people actually get to know eachother a bit before comitting to having/raising a child together. I find it a bit odd to not spend some time together before taking this decision.
- taneq 6y agoWow, just reading this made me feel awfully lonely.
- question000 6y agoI obviously don't want to cast dispersions on people who want to do this out of the goodness of their hearts but this just seems like a magnet for pedophiles. I know many people reading this are thinking I am crazy or paranoid, but as someone who knew a pedophile as a small child (he was a bus driver, and no I wasn't molested by him, but he did go on to rape another student) I can tell you they will find any job or volunteer duty that allows them to molest kids, even if it destroys their lives. They are constantly scanning any avenues to pursue their aims and are willing to totally alter their careers and lifestyle to fake their way into a position of authority around children. Just a warning to those out their who would think "he just like kids, I can trust this <teacher, priest, etc.>" don't, you still must supervise and listen to your child. I and other bus passengers warned our parents that this man was acting suspiciously and we were ignored.
- notRobot 6y agoSuch people will always find ways to get to kids. The solution is to create systems so that people who are attracted to children recognise that's wrong and can get psychological/psychiatric help to control their condition without being shamed to the extent that they cannot even confide in mental health practitioners.
- hoka-one-one 6y agoIs there a name for this argument? The "people will always find a way to do X no matter how difficult you make it" argument? I see it everywhere.
- k__ 6y agoSame goes for "but will someone think about the kids?!" No?
- question000 6y agoI don't really see how this comment makes sense, shaming a pedophile is going to make them more likely to seek treatment. While it's bad to demonize people with mental illness, these people don't typically think they have a problem, unlike depression or alcoholism the victim is someone else not the mentally ill, they typically won't care until they are shamed. I'm just saying this website should have a warning because I can 100% guarantee pedophiles are trawling it looking for access to children, like they would any other kid based online forum.
- notRobot 6y agoAs someone who is largely aromantic and asexual, I have many times considered adopting a child with a close friend, because although romantic/sexual relationships don't appeal to me much, I would still love to be a parent, and have a (somewhat) traditional nuclear family. It's definitely a possibility, let's see if it works out.
- k__ 6y agoTo me it's the other way around. I'm neither aromantic nor asexual and I like the idea of procreating. Creating partial copies of myself and such things sounds interesting. But I can't bear the idea of actually raising a child. That responsibility...
- tartoran 6y agoIt is a lot of responsibility indeed but it comes with benefits too. Parenting is an experience you can skip on, but you can’t know what you’re missing until you go through it. Lots of people change their perspective once they become parents and few regret it - it’s like reaching a new stage in development/life.
- k__ 6y agoYes, this is true. At least my sister is up and about to get at least four kids, so maybe I can get a partial taste, haha.
- marakeesh 6y agoThat's how it started for me. Then, my child came along and was already warmed up to that idea and everything else just happened naturally. Yes, this is an experience that I would not want to skip on having but if you asked me before whether I am ready to make this step I would probably give you the answer: "I'm not sure" and I completely understand people who hesitate starting family. I've also changed after becoming a parent.
- ck425 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ciconia 6y agoThis is sad, but divorce is even sadder. Both phenomena have many negative implications beyond the child's well-being, namely the economy. Consider the waste of each "family" having double the housing, double the cars, double everything... It's amazing to me that western democracies seem to facilitate single parenting and divorce, instead of discouraging it.
- tobylane 6y agoFrom your reasoning I understand why you’re against divorced/separated/never-married parents but not why you’re against single parents. Against might be an overstatement.
- watwut 6y ago> Consider the waste of each "family" having double the housing, double the cars, double everything... Because alternative is often quite a lot of suffering of one or both parties. Even beyond abusive/controlling/openly hostile relationships, you have people who completely checked out of marriage long before divorce. Their partners finally calling end to it are just putting paper on what was reality before. The thing about traditional marriages with low divorces is that abuse whether physical or verbal was a fact of life in many families. It also often meant alcoholic or gambling partner for years, it meant couples that looked down at each other. Nowdays alcohol was replaced by gaming all the time in some couples, which is milder, but still fully understandable.
- toyg 6y ago> Nowadays alcohol was replaced by gaming And porn.
- 627467 6y agoI think you're jumping to conclusions. I mean, it may be true that most co-parents still don't share many of the physical assets but considering how co-living has been increasing in the last decade it would only make sense for co-parents to arrange for something similar. I mean, even divorced parents tend to try to live close to each other. Why wouldn't amicably arranged co-parents not opt for the same if that means easier parenting and living costs?
- MC4058 6y agoThis is what I plan on doing because I'm gay. I want to have a family but the majority of gay men never have a long term partner and the ones that do hardly ever have children because the process is so difficult and expensive. Ideally, I'll be able to find a woman who is willing to co-parent with me without any expectation of romance or sexual attraction. It's nice to see that this kind of thing might be normalized some day.
- ck425 6y agoIs that changing? And I mean both the long term relationship and the expense having children part? The majority of my male friends are gay and while there are a lot of happily single men there's also a significant chunk who are in healthy long term relationships and a load who are actively looking. I know less about the children side but I know a few gay men who have adopted, single or as part of a couple, and they described the process as rigorous but not unduly so. I guess this depends where you live, I'm in Scotland, which is supposedly the least homophobic country in the world (an extremely depressing fact) so maybe it's easier for gay men to adopt here.
- gwbas1c 6y ago> majority of gay men never have a long term partner I always thought that was a stereotype?
- r00fus 6y agoI think the difficulty of adopting (financially, legally as same-sex couple) is more likely why you see fewer same-sex families.
- xutopia 6y agoA good friend of mine actually ended up going that route. The father lives in a foreign country though but they're friends and wish to collaborate in the process. Once Covid is behind us they'll resume trying.
- yodsanklai 6y agoI suspect that after a few years, a lot (if not most) of "regular" couples are de facto platonic and don't have romantic feelings. In a sense, these guys just skip the first step of sex, romance and infatuation.
- dhimes 6y agoIt'll be interesting if it works backwards— if they grow to have a romantic interest in each other.
- ryanmarsh 6y agoYou can grown to love someone the same as you can grow to hate them.
- derbOac 6y agoI think it almost is guaranteed to at least sometimes, if it's not already there from the beginning. I am deeply skeptical of claims of a platonic relationship in which the couple is having sex to conceive (per the article). It seems almost by definition not platonic at that point. It think the "platonic" schema is what binds the couple. A couple where the members are saying they don't want romance etc but are having sex and raising children over the long haul might just be expressing a mutual interest in a form of relational style, just like other couples that express a desire for a different relational style. If you have two people who don't want to admit they want a relationship, or want some basics but not the warm and fuzzies most people are looking for, you'd end up with something like this.
- norswap 6y agoThere's probably research on that.
- tokai 6y agoIt seems like you are wrong. "Contrary to what has been widely believed, long-term romantic love (with intensity, sexual interest, and engagement, but without the obsessive element common in new relationships), appears to be a real phenomenon that may be enhancing to individuals’ lives—positively associated with marital satisfaction, mental health, and overall well-being. [...] long-term marriage does not necessarily kill the romance in one's relationship" https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1037/a0014226 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1037/a0014226
- wahoojoq 6y agoAnother sign of neomarxist culture: destruction of the family unit, only its destruction is disguised in this case.
- smm2000 6y agoby
- bookmarkable 6y agoThis is a scene from Logan's Run.
- andrewmcwatters 6y ago"I noticed a lot of people were having kids and starting families later in life. Many would spend their 20’s and 30’s focused on advancing their careers, making money, and pursuing individual experiences and travel. As they got older, many people, particularly women approaching 40 who were still single, started to feel the pressures of biological clock and were growing frustrated by the short term casual relationships they were finding on the mainstream dating apps. They had limited options for finding a like-minded person who was ready to start a family. I wanted to build a platform for everyone who is ready to start a family and help educate them on all of the ways they can make that happen. We connect and educate people who are looking to start a family in any arrangement that works best for them, whether it be a romantic relationship, a platonic co-parent, or a known donor."[1] [1]: https://www.modamily.com/about-us https://www.modamily.com/about-us Sounds like a platform for spinsters.
- silexia 6y agoIsn't this similar in result to an arranged marriage in a lot of ways?
- watwut 6y agoI find it highly unlikely that someone who spend over 15 years in causual short relationships to suddenly be able to completely change approaching 40ties. Long term relationships are different then short term ones and changing habits is hard.
- twiclo 6y agoThis is disgusting
- benmller313 6y agoDon't be so judgemental, they seem happy and it doesn't effect you.
- cryptica 6y agoProblem: There are so many selfish psychopaths in our society that nobody can find a good, honest and reliable partner anymore. Solution: Help psychopaths to have children together. Outcome: Breeds more psychopaths so that there are even more of them. Next problem: Too many psychopathic murderers. Next solution: Co-parenting service for serial killers. Outcome: ... Humanity terrifies me.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- tolbish 6y agoThe solution to a lack of empathy, intimacy, and romance in our society is to normalize transactional child rearing? Get real.
- ryanmarsh 6y agoMarried men earn more. The economy is disincentivized to protect or encourage healthy marriage. There are a number of other factors that also serve to drive us towards later child birth, fewer marriages, and the outsourcing of everything the family would have done in the past. Rather dystopian.
- tremon 6y agoWhat makes you think there is no empathy or intimacy in a platonic relationship?
- tolbish 6y agoThe article leads with 'I wanted to meet a mate and have a baby without wasting time’. It also reads as if the people in the article optimized their lives for money and then realized in mid life that they neglected the core parts of forming deep personal romantic connections. It casts the forming of deep romantic bonds as "wasting time" and as something that can be purchased later on.
- permo-w 6y agoNot that I disagree with you, but did anyone say that that’s what this is?
- phkahler 6y ago>> Anderson already had a young son – she split from his father when he was one. She signed up to two websites in early 2019. She wanted the opportunities that having two parents in a child’s life could bring. Its known as cuckoldry. Why would a guy want to voluntarily raise another man's child and not even get sex with the mom as part of the deal? That takes it to a whole new level.
- true_religion 6y agoBecause you get to father the child? Would you see it as a similar arrangement, if a woman agreed to raise a child that wasn’t her own?
- phkahler 6y agoI understand raising children as a goal. I can also see raising one you didnt make as a thing. I dont see making such a commitment with a platonic other as much of a thing. A cynical way to see the woman in the article is that she went and had a good time with the wrong guy - whom she was attracted to - and now is literally looking for a "nice guy" to help raise her kid. The absurd part is that she doesn't even want to bring anything to the table in return and thinks that's perfectly normal.
- xiphias2 6y agoYou can look at this article as an advertisement. Single mothers and gay people will try to use the service. Heterosexual men...probably not so much. I already see enough single mothers on Tinder, I just unmatch when I find it out, as I'm looking for a girlfriend without children.
- phkahler 6y ago>> You can look at this article as an advertisement. Thanks, I somehow forgot about that aspect of the internet for a minute. Now the whole thing makes sense. Men=>AshleyMadison like Women=>ThisSite. Both are mostly selling a fantasy.
- r00fus 6y agoHow does this work? "the decision to have a child with someone you are not romantically involved with and, in most cases, choose not to live with" I can understand that a lot of divorced marriages end up in a similar state - this just sounds like getting to that state more quickly - what outcomes does that bring for the child/ren?
- julius_set 6y agoSo the kids grow up seeing their parents as just associates. Sounds healthy, what a great way to show your kids how intimacy, empathy, and a normal romantic relationship works.
- ivanfat 6y ago50% of marriages end in divorce and kids are living in separate homes already. The co-parents do show love for each other, the child, and any other relationship.
- apta 6y agoAnd the degeneracy of society continues.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ivanfat 6y agoHappy to answer any questions. I'm the founder of Modamily.