6 ms·

One thing worth remembering - thousands of current "Bay area tech workers" grew up in other parts of the country, and moved to silicon valley primarily for job

by floor2 6y ago

One thing worth remembering - thousands of current "Bay area tech workers" grew up in other parts of the country, and moved to silicon valley primarily for job opportunities, but may not otherwise share in the religious, political or social views that dominate that space. So while in some cases there may be the conflict you're alluding to, for other people, they're just moving back home.

asdff 6y ago
That's precisely the math that people are weighing. Live in comparative squalor in the bay or nyc in your cramped apartment with no grass and no light and little opportunity for change as time goes by and your family potentially grows, or move back home and live like an absolute king in a legitimate mansion with yards on all sides with a three car garage, basketball hoop, and a pool in that rich rich neighborhood with better schools than SF. It's like giving yourself a massive raise.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Don't you see that this is the kind of framing that rubs people the wrong way? There's nothing wrong with having different preferences, but it's frustrating for Bay Area natives to constantly hear that it's a terrible place nobody could enjoy on its own terms.
  - Rebelgecko 6y ago
    Ironically, people in "flyover country" have been hearing the same sorts of disses for decades
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      Absolutely, and I won't pretend that's something I've never been guilty of. But it's a very toxic habit and we need to do our best to fight against it.
    - dismalpedigree 6y ago
      I used to cringe with the term “flyover country”. Now I embrace it. I even promote it. The less enticing I make my area seem to an outsider, the less likely they will try to move here and ruin it.
      - User23 6y ago
        There's nothing to do here, you're isolated, there's no culture, it's completely boring, and the people are so intolerant. Stay on the coasts!
        selimthegrim 6y ago
        And don’t come to Louisiana either, WWOZ is on the Internet for a reason! (just kidding, we need all of you we can get)
  - asdff 6y ago
    I mean sure, but eventually you come to a reckoning of what you truly get out of an area. Is it nice restaurants? Bars? Parks? You can have those elsewhere. Walkable neighborhoods with transit exist elsewhere too. Museums, art, plays, concerts, operas, orchestras, too. At some point you have to square with the fact that your 2 million dollar home in the bay area is an order of magnitude more expensive than a comparable home in a dozen more or less comparable places, given that you'd be working from home at the same rate anyway (in this hypothetical). And then you'd have plenty of money left over to fly back to the bay whenever you'd like.
    - mrgordon 6y ago
      Can you give some examples of places that meet those criteria (good transit, walkable, major cultural venues, varied dining scene) with $200k houses? I don’t think there are many places in America with good transit that are walkable so I think it’s going to be tough to find that for $200k. And if the solution is just to move somewhere so small you don’t need transit, then you lose out on the varied restaurants, cultural events, major airport, etc. The better places for transit like NYC, SF, Chicago, and Denver are all major cities so you won’t find dirt cheap houses near the transit.
      - asdff 6y ago
        Shaker Heights.
      - jamesliudotcc 6y ago
        Chicago: the Red, Blue, Green, Orange, and Pink lines all run through neighborhoods with $200k houses. The Blue Line connects to O'Hare, the Orange line connects to Midway. The bus system has a line in a grid every mile, sometimes more often, with some diagonals.
        mrgordon 6y ago
        Are the areas with the cheap houses walkable destinations in their own right or mainly residential communities with a subway stop that can get you to the action? Chicago was the example that most came to mind as something with cheaper houses and transit, but without knowing it very well my sense from talking to people is that there is a lot of cheap housing in Chicago but living in the urban core isn't necessarily cheap.
  - jjav 6y ago
    How is it terrible? While I'd love to move to a cheaper place (our work is all remote now), I can't think of anywhere better and I've been looking hard. Being near the ocean is a hard requirement. And weather that isn't terrible (bay area weather isn't actually very good, but it's also never terrible). Where else could one go? Florida could be nice but it is low land being taken over by rising oceans so not a great strategy. Washington state coast sounds promising but there is snow up there, so a hard no. Oregon coast is pretty inhospitable for water sports. Southern California isn't particularly cheaper. Southern east coast (north of Florida) could work, but way too much racism so as a minority that's a pass. SF Bay to Monterey Bay is a sweet spot in the USA that is hard to beat.
  - silicon2401 6y ago
    I would consider it a personal problem if a bay area native dislikes hearing that some people don't like the bay area. Is it unreasonable to expect adults to have the emotional maturity to handle such things?
- burlesona 6y ago
  Space in big cities comes at a premium, but tech workers living in SF have hardly been living in squalor. Most of SF is single family homes, and the vast Bay Area beyond even more so. Also, having done the spreadsheet many times myself, it’s almost never a raise to move to a low-cost area. The reason people make that move is that they’ve accumulated so much wealth in SF that they can basically retire so long as they move to a low cost area. Some people want to do that, and retire very young. Some people don’t, so they stay around until they’re wealthy enough to even afford nice properties in the bay area. The reason for this giant shift, however, is very simply that the vast majority of city life is either closed or greatly impeded at the moment. So the experience of city life has been significantly degraded, and thus many people are now shifting toward places that offer very little except for nice, cheap property, and thus make a good place to hole up and hide out the pandemic.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    I’m not so sure - housing is so expensive in the Bay Area it’s more than just moving to retire. I grew up in Buffalo where housing is quite inexpensive so it’s more dramatic for me, but a small house to raise a family is 2.3 million on the peninsula, super old, pretty small (1600sqft), and being a new buyer your property tax on that is 23k per year. That’s insane even if you get a million dollars in an exit or in google shares. People just want to be able to have a family and a place to live. My friends mostly left in their 30s to have kids (mostly Colorado, some Texas). Even SF is cheaper than the peninsula for a new construction apartment (which don’t really exist in Palo Alto through Cupertino). You can’t even really escape to Santa Cruz anymore - you’d have to go to Sacramento. At that point you might as well move across the country. Frustrating bit to me is how unnecessary this is - just people who bought first protected by prop13 keeping the supply down for others. There’s an irony in seeing people with a Black Lives Matter sign on the lawn, and pushing for No on 22, but when it comes to the most important way to actually help the most people (increasing housing supply) - they instead repeatedly argue against building new or high density housing. And they do this while pretending they’re in favor of housing at the same time. One of the Palo Alto city council members says there’s no housing crisis - you just need a good realtor (like her). See: https://twitter.com/lydia_kou https://twitter.com/lydia_kou Kitty on the planning commission in Cupertino says if they build housing single devs will turn their high school daughters into prostitutes. People complain about building everywhere, but the housing policy/cost is abnormally bad here.
microtherion 6y ago
> thousands of current "Bay area tech workers" grew up in other parts of the country, and [...] may not otherwise share in the religious, political or social views that dominate that space. I know a few, who grew up in rural Michigan, and Oregon, respectively. But from conversations with them, I get the impression that, while they carry some traces of their roots with them, they also have much that sets them apart from their background (putting a high value on formal education, cultural tolerance, etc). And ultimately, Bay Area values WERE formed by the people who moved there. Janis Joplin? Texas. Nancy Pelosi? Maryland. Donald Knuth? Wisconsin.
- drewmate 6y ago
  I think you're both right, and it just goes to show you that (in spite of what it might feel like sometimes) we've all actually got a lot more in common than we think. I'm a mountain-states native who went to the Bay for work and is (at least for now) back in the mountains. I got along fine with folks in California, but it still never quite felt like home (tough to do in a 1BR). Still, I'm sure I've brought a little of the Bay back with me! At the very least a new Subaru with California plates. :)
mattnewton 6y ago
I like to flatter myself that the Bay Area has changed me from my rural roots; surely there is some of that happening too?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by floor2 6y ago

asdff 6y ago

That's precisely the math that people are weighing. Live in comparative squalor in the bay or nyc in your cramped apartment with no grass and no light and little opportunity for change as time goes by and your family potentially grows, or move back home and live like an absolute king in a legitimate mansion with yards on all sides with a three car garage, basketball hoop, and a pool in that rich rich neighborhood with better schools than SF. It's like giving yourself a massive raise.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Don't you see that this is the kind of framing that rubs people the wrong way? There's nothing wrong with having different preferences, but it's frustrating for Bay Area natives to constantly hear that it's a terrible place nobody could enjoy on its own terms.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  Ironically, people in "flyover country" have been hearing the same sorts of disses for decades
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Absolutely, and I won't pretend that's something I've never been guilty of. But it's a very toxic habit and we need to do our best to fight against it.
  - dismalpedigree 6y ago
    I used to cringe with the term “flyover country”. Now I embrace it. I even promote it. The less enticing I make my area seem to an outsider, the less likely they will try to move here and ruin it.
    - User23 6y ago
      There's nothing to do here, you're isolated, there's no culture, it's completely boring, and the people are so intolerant. Stay on the coasts!
      - selimthegrim 6y ago
        And don’t come to Louisiana either, WWOZ is on the Internet for a reason! (just kidding, we need all of you we can get)
- asdff 6y ago
  I mean sure, but eventually you come to a reckoning of what you truly get out of an area. Is it nice restaurants? Bars? Parks? You can have those elsewhere. Walkable neighborhoods with transit exist elsewhere too. Museums, art, plays, concerts, operas, orchestras, too. At some point you have to square with the fact that your 2 million dollar home in the bay area is an order of magnitude more expensive than a comparable home in a dozen more or less comparable places, given that you'd be working from home at the same rate anyway (in this hypothetical). And then you'd have plenty of money left over to fly back to the bay whenever you'd like.
  - mrgordon 6y ago
    Can you give some examples of places that meet those criteria (good transit, walkable, major cultural venues, varied dining scene) with $200k houses? I don’t think there are many places in America with good transit that are walkable so I think it’s going to be tough to find that for $200k. And if the solution is just to move somewhere so small you don’t need transit, then you lose out on the varied restaurants, cultural events, major airport, etc. The better places for transit like NYC, SF, Chicago, and Denver are all major cities so you won’t find dirt cheap houses near the transit.
    - asdff 6y ago
      Shaker Heights.
    - jamesliudotcc 6y ago
      Chicago: the Red, Blue, Green, Orange, and Pink lines all run through neighborhoods with $200k houses. The Blue Line connects to O'Hare, the Orange line connects to Midway. The bus system has a line in a grid every mile, sometimes more often, with some diagonals.
      - mrgordon 6y ago
        Are the areas with the cheap houses walkable destinations in their own right or mainly residential communities with a subway stop that can get you to the action? Chicago was the example that most came to mind as something with cheaper houses and transit, but without knowing it very well my sense from talking to people is that there is a lot of cheap housing in Chicago but living in the urban core isn't necessarily cheap.
- jjav 6y ago
  How is it terrible? While I'd love to move to a cheaper place (our work is all remote now), I can't think of anywhere better and I've been looking hard. Being near the ocean is a hard requirement. And weather that isn't terrible (bay area weather isn't actually very good, but it's also never terrible). Where else could one go? Florida could be nice but it is low land being taken over by rising oceans so not a great strategy. Washington state coast sounds promising but there is snow up there, so a hard no. Oregon coast is pretty inhospitable for water sports. Southern California isn't particularly cheaper. Southern east coast (north of Florida) could work, but way too much racism so as a minority that's a pass. SF Bay to Monterey Bay is a sweet spot in the USA that is hard to beat.
- silicon2401 6y ago
  I would consider it a personal problem if a bay area native dislikes hearing that some people don't like the bay area. Is it unreasonable to expect adults to have the emotional maturity to handle such things?
burlesona 6y ago
Space in big cities comes at a premium, but tech workers living in SF have hardly been living in squalor. Most of SF is single family homes, and the vast Bay Area beyond even more so. Also, having done the spreadsheet many times myself, it’s almost never a raise to move to a low-cost area. The reason people make that move is that they’ve accumulated so much wealth in SF that they can basically retire so long as they move to a low cost area. Some people want to do that, and retire very young. Some people don’t, so they stay around until they’re wealthy enough to even afford nice properties in the bay area. The reason for this giant shift, however, is very simply that the vast majority of city life is either closed or greatly impeded at the moment. So the experience of city life has been significantly degraded, and thus many people are now shifting toward places that offer very little except for nice, cheap property, and thus make a good place to hole up and hide out the pandemic.
- fossuser 6y ago
  I’m not so sure - housing is so expensive in the Bay Area it’s more than just moving to retire. I grew up in Buffalo where housing is quite inexpensive so it’s more dramatic for me, but a small house to raise a family is 2.3 million on the peninsula, super old, pretty small (1600sqft), and being a new buyer your property tax on that is 23k per year. That’s insane even if you get a million dollars in an exit or in google shares. People just want to be able to have a family and a place to live. My friends mostly left in their 30s to have kids (mostly Colorado, some Texas). Even SF is cheaper than the peninsula for a new construction apartment (which don’t really exist in Palo Alto through Cupertino). You can’t even really escape to Santa Cruz anymore - you’d have to go to Sacramento. At that point you might as well move across the country. Frustrating bit to me is how unnecessary this is - just people who bought first protected by prop13 keeping the supply down for others. There’s an irony in seeing people with a Black Lives Matter sign on the lawn, and pushing for No on 22, but when it comes to the most important way to actually help the most people (increasing housing supply) - they instead repeatedly argue against building new or high density housing. And they do this while pretending they’re in favor of housing at the same time. One of the Palo Alto city council members says there’s no housing crisis - you just need a good realtor (like her). See: https://twitter.com/lydia_kou https://twitter.com/lydia_kou Kitty on the planning commission in Cupertino says if they build housing single devs will turn their high school daughters into prostitutes. People complain about building everywhere, but the housing policy/cost is abnormally bad here.

microtherion 6y ago

> thousands of current "Bay area tech workers" grew up in other parts of the country, and [...] may not otherwise share in the religious, political or social views that dominate that space. I know a few, who grew up in rural Michigan, and Oregon, respectively. But from conversations with them, I get the impression that, while they carry some traces of their roots with them, they also have much that sets them apart from their background (putting a high value on formal education, cultural tolerance, etc). And ultimately, Bay Area values WERE formed by the people who moved there. Janis Joplin? Texas. Nancy Pelosi? Maryland. Donald Knuth? Wisconsin.

drewmate 6y ago
I think you're both right, and it just goes to show you that (in spite of what it might feel like sometimes) we've all actually got a lot more in common than we think. I'm a mountain-states native who went to the Bay for work and is (at least for now) back in the mountains. I got along fine with folks in California, but it still never quite felt like home (tough to do in a 1BR). Still, I'm sure I've brought a little of the Bay back with me! At the very least a new Subaru with California plates. :)

mattnewton 6y ago

I like to flatter myself that the Bay Area has changed me from my rural roots; surely there is some of that happening too?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]