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Ah and there it is. PHP is fundamentally a templating system with a programming language built-in. Imagine using Handlebars.js to write your business logic. I

Ah and there it is. PHP is fundamentally a templating system with a programming language built-in. Imagine using Handlebars.js to write your business logic. I do think code organization is one of the primary jobs of a programming language/ecosystem. I want my tools to help me be better about that, not worse. Oh and given that most projects use a bunch of library code, I would very much prefer a system that has a consistent code organization pattern so I don’t have to guess how it all works. Take a look at the source code for something like WordPress or WooCommerce. These are mature projects. And yet it’s hard to shake the feeling that it’s all spaghetti inclusions. But also there are many other issues with PHP that I mentioned in a prior comment. Here, if you’d like for a better read on the subject than I can produce: https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/

Aeolun 6y ago
> I do think code organization is one of the primary jobs of a programming language/ecosystem. I want my tools to help me be better about that, not worse. Isn’t splitting up all your classes into separate files considered to be a good thing? Considering how huge we can make files in JS I’m sort of inclined to consider that a problem instead of a feature. I think any project that started around PHP 4/5 will look like Wordpress. Looking at more recent projects (after PSR’s became a thing) would be more representative.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  It is but when you use third party code, what guarantees do you have that it didn’t do something stupid like declare a variable like $TIMEOUT? Whether on purpose or by accident. And of course any class or function become global even if you run include/require inside the body of a function or a method.
  - megous 6y ago
    Include inside the body of an anonymous function if you care about toplevel $TIMEOUT=123 overriding some global variable. Anyway you don't have any guarantees in JS either, for example. Imported module can just redefine Date object prototype or any global via globalThis. If you don't trust the libraries to not make a mess, don't use them is the only real solution. And it will be completely silent as opposed to PHP failing loudly when you try to redefine constant or class or function.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      Variables would stay inside the scope of your anonymous function. Functions and classes will become defined globally. Surprise!

Aeolun 6y ago

> I do think code organization is one of the primary jobs of a programming language/ecosystem. I want my tools to help me be better about that, not worse. Isn’t splitting up all your classes into separate files considered to be a good thing? Considering how huge we can make files in JS I’m sort of inclined to consider that a problem instead of a feature. I think any project that started around PHP 4/5 will look like Wordpress. Looking at more recent projects (after PSR’s became a thing) would be more representative.

IgorPartola 6y ago
It is but when you use third party code, what guarantees do you have that it didn’t do something stupid like declare a variable like $TIMEOUT? Whether on purpose or by accident. And of course any class or function become global even if you run include/require inside the body of a function or a method.
- megous 6y ago
  Include inside the body of an anonymous function if you care about toplevel $TIMEOUT=123 overriding some global variable. Anyway you don't have any guarantees in JS either, for example. Imported module can just redefine Date object prototype or any global via globalThis. If you don't trust the libraries to not make a mess, don't use them is the only real solution. And it will be completely silent as opposed to PHP failing loudly when you try to redefine constant or class or function.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    Variables would stay inside the scope of your anonymous function. Functions and classes will become defined globally. Surprise!