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China's constitution actually guarantees freedom of speech, assembly, protest and religion. But those constitutional rights are not enforced, so they may as we

China's constitution actually guarantees freedom of speech, assembly, protest and religion. But those constitutional rights are not enforced, so they may as well not exist. There has been rule-of-law campaigners in China who push to give the Chinese people more of the rights enshrined in their constitution, but those campaigners tend to be jailed very quickly.

runawaybottle 6y ago
Lol, what? Dude their internet is still censored. What’s there to even discuss here. Call me when they figure out step 1, then we’ll talk. China has a critical characteristic of a third world country, which is the unspoken “true” law. On a spectrum, the west is certainly on there but more so as you get closer to power structures like Congress and corporations. But the trumpian shithole countries have ‘free elections’ like Russia, and now hilariously I just found out from you China has freedom of speech laws. I’m not sure why it sounds like I’m taking this out on you (because I don’t mean to). Why the hell is Stanford associated with this farce?
- twblalock 6y ago
  > But the trumpian shithole countries have ‘free elections’ like Russia, and now hilariously I just found out from you China has freedom of speech laws. The Soviet Union had freedom of speech in its constitution also. The point is that those rights exist only on paper, and so will the rights defined in this new personal information protection law.
  - medium_burrito 6y ago
    Quoth Idi, the greatest man that has ever been: “There is freedom of speech, but I cannot guarantee freedom after speech.”
- avmich 6y ago
  I generally agree, but why "true" law is a characteristic of a third world country? To me, current American woes are associated with breaking of that "true" law - that is, unspoken agreement in society to treat things certain way. When somebody starts adhering to the letter of the law, but completely against the spirit of the law, they may have situations like today in White House and Capitol.
pgt 6y ago
Those “laws” are honeypots for unsuspecting activists before they become influential and dangerous.
- shaggyfrog 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign
logicchains 6y ago
The constitution doesn't guarantee them. Most clauses in the constitution come with a "unless it goes against the interests of the party" clause.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> China's constitution actually guarantees freedom of speech, assembly, protest and religion. In a sense, but in a very different sense than the Western liberal democratic tradition views each of those freedoms. Take, for instance religion; Article 36 of the Constitution states: ---[art 36] Citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, social organization or individual shall coerce citizens to believe in or not to believe in any religion, nor shall they discriminate against citizens who believe in or do not believe in any religion. The state shall protect normal religious activities. No one shall use religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the state’s education system. Religious groups and religious affairs shall not be subject to control by foreign forces. ---[end] Speech, assembly, and protest/demonstration are trickier because the problem isn't evident from a single article in isolation. Article 35, on its face, seems to protect them: ---[art 35] Citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall enjoy freedom of speech, the press, assembly, association, procession and demonstration. ---[end] But then there's the catch (and this also applies to religion in top of the issues in Art. 36 itself): Articles 51-54 ---[start] Article 51 When exercising their freedoms and rights, citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall not undermine the interests of the state, society or collectives, or infringe upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens. Article 52 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall have the obligation to safeguard national unity and the solidarity of all the country’s ethnic groups. Article 53 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China must abide by the Constitution and the law, keep state secrets, protect public property, observe discipline in the workplace, observe public order, and respect social morality. Article 54 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall have the obligation to safeguard the security, honor and interests of the motherland; they must not behave in any way that endangers the motherland’s security, honor or interests. ---[end]
- someperson 6y ago
  It can still be summed up as "you have the right to freedom as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's right to freedom", which is the liberal democratic tradition. Admittedly the responsibilities to "observe discipline in the workplace", "respect social morality" and "safeguarding the honor of the motherland" wouldn't normally be part of a constitution in most places, but some of those kinds of ideas are part of the US 'Oath of Allegiance'. All that said, rights enshrined in China's constitution are not enforced, but arguably some of the responsibilities are enforced.
summerlight 6y ago
It's because CCP's constitution overrides the China's constitution when there's any conflict. So the freedom of speech, assembly, protest and religion basically means that "as long as it doesn't piss CCP off". Don't make any reasoning about China based on a western standard; In China, CCP comes first before anything else including the national body itself.

runawaybottle 6y ago

Lol, what? Dude their internet is still censored. What’s there to even discuss here. Call me when they figure out step 1, then we’ll talk. China has a critical characteristic of a third world country, which is the unspoken “true” law. On a spectrum, the west is certainly on there but more so as you get closer to power structures like Congress and corporations. But the trumpian shithole countries have ‘free elections’ like Russia, and now hilariously I just found out from you China has freedom of speech laws. I’m not sure why it sounds like I’m taking this out on you (because I don’t mean to). Why the hell is Stanford associated with this farce?

twblalock 6y ago
> But the trumpian shithole countries have ‘free elections’ like Russia, and now hilariously I just found out from you China has freedom of speech laws. The Soviet Union had freedom of speech in its constitution also. The point is that those rights exist only on paper, and so will the rights defined in this new personal information protection law.
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  Quoth Idi, the greatest man that has ever been: “There is freedom of speech, but I cannot guarantee freedom after speech.”
avmich 6y ago
I generally agree, but why "true" law is a characteristic of a third world country? To me, current American woes are associated with breaking of that "true" law - that is, unspoken agreement in society to treat things certain way. When somebody starts adhering to the letter of the law, but completely against the spirit of the law, they may have situations like today in White House and Capitol.

pgt 6y ago

Those “laws” are honeypots for unsuspecting activists before they become influential and dangerous.

shaggyfrog 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign

logicchains 6y ago

The constitution doesn't guarantee them. Most clauses in the constitution come with a "unless it goes against the interests of the party" clause.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> China's constitution actually guarantees freedom of speech, assembly, protest and religion. In a sense, but in a very different sense than the Western liberal democratic tradition views each of those freedoms. Take, for instance religion; Article 36 of the Constitution states: ---[art 36] Citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, social organization or individual shall coerce citizens to believe in or not to believe in any religion, nor shall they discriminate against citizens who believe in or do not believe in any religion. The state shall protect normal religious activities. No one shall use religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the state’s education system. Religious groups and religious affairs shall not be subject to control by foreign forces. ---[end] Speech, assembly, and protest/demonstration are trickier because the problem isn't evident from a single article in isolation. Article 35, on its face, seems to protect them: ---[art 35] Citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall enjoy freedom of speech, the press, assembly, association, procession and demonstration. ---[end] But then there's the catch (and this also applies to religion in top of the issues in Art. 36 itself): Articles 51-54 ---[start] Article 51 When exercising their freedoms and rights, citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall not undermine the interests of the state, society or collectives, or infringe upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens. Article 52 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall have the obligation to safeguard national unity and the solidarity of all the country’s ethnic groups. Article 53 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China must abide by the Constitution and the law, keep state secrets, protect public property, observe discipline in the workplace, observe public order, and respect social morality. Article 54 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall have the obligation to safeguard the security, honor and interests of the motherland; they must not behave in any way that endangers the motherland’s security, honor or interests. ---[end]

someperson 6y ago
It can still be summed up as "you have the right to freedom as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's right to freedom", which is the liberal democratic tradition. Admittedly the responsibilities to "observe discipline in the workplace", "respect social morality" and "safeguarding the honor of the motherland" wouldn't normally be part of a constitution in most places, but some of those kinds of ideas are part of the US 'Oath of Allegiance'. All that said, rights enshrined in China's constitution are not enforced, but arguably some of the responsibilities are enforced.

summerlight 6y ago

It's because CCP's constitution overrides the China's constitution when there's any conflict. So the freedom of speech, assembly, protest and religion basically means that "as long as it doesn't piss CCP off". Don't make any reasoning about China based on a western standard; In China, CCP comes first before anything else including the national body itself.