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That’s a hack, not a solution. You still can’t import just class A out of A, B, and C that are all defined in the same file. And even if you require_once file

That’s a hack, not a solution. You still can’t import just class A out of A, B, and C that are all defined in the same file. And even if you require_once file x.php, you don’t have any guarantees that that file won’t require/include file y.php that you also intend to include. PHP files are treated as files, not modules and that’s fundamentally broken.

megous 6y ago
I guess you like modules. Someone else may like string inclusion, because it allows for some other forms of splitting the code that modules would not allow and fulfills the primary purpose of a PHP script, which is templating. Neither is fundamentally broken. You're just focusing on one aspect (organizing code), while ignoring the other.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Ah and there it is. PHP is fundamentally a templating system with a programming language built-in. Imagine using Handlebars.js to write your business logic. I do think code organization is one of the primary jobs of a programming language/ecosystem. I want my tools to help me be better about that, not worse. Oh and given that most projects use a bunch of library code, I would very much prefer a system that has a consistent code organization pattern so I don’t have to guess how it all works. Take a look at the source code for something like WordPress or WooCommerce. These are mature projects. And yet it’s hard to shake the feeling that it’s all spaghetti inclusions. But also there are many other issues with PHP that I mentioned in a prior comment. Here, if you’d like for a better read on the subject than I can produce: https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    > I do think code organization is one of the primary jobs of a programming language/ecosystem. I want my tools to help me be better about that, not worse. Isn’t splitting up all your classes into separate files considered to be a good thing? Considering how huge we can make files in JS I’m sort of inclined to consider that a problem instead of a feature. I think any project that started around PHP 4/5 will look like Wordpress. Looking at more recent projects (after PSR’s became a thing) would be more representative.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      It is but when you use third party code, what guarantees do you have that it didn’t do something stupid like declare a variable like $TIMEOUT? Whether on purpose or by accident. And of course any class or function become global even if you run include/require inside the body of a function or a method.
      - megous 6y ago
        Include inside the body of an anonymous function if you care about toplevel $TIMEOUT=123 overriding some global variable. Anyway you don't have any guarantees in JS either, for example. Imported module can just redefine Date object prototype or any global via globalThis. If you don't trust the libraries to not make a mess, don't use them is the only real solution. And it will be completely silent as opposed to PHP failing loudly when you try to redefine constant or class or function.
        IgorPartola 6y ago
        Variables would stay inside the scope of your anonymous function. Functions and classes will become defined globally. Surprise!
Aeolun 6y ago
Ah, I don’t think so. It’s a different way of thinking about it, but it’s hardly broken. It’s only broken if you expect files to be modules and they’re not. It’s just as (if not more) confusing if you go from PHP to JS and expect modules to work like files.

megous 6y ago

I guess you like modules. Someone else may like string inclusion, because it allows for some other forms of splitting the code that modules would not allow and fulfills the primary purpose of a PHP script, which is templating. Neither is fundamentally broken. You're just focusing on one aspect (organizing code), while ignoring the other.

IgorPartola 6y ago
Ah and there it is. PHP is fundamentally a templating system with a programming language built-in. Imagine using Handlebars.js to write your business logic. I do think code organization is one of the primary jobs of a programming language/ecosystem. I want my tools to help me be better about that, not worse. Oh and given that most projects use a bunch of library code, I would very much prefer a system that has a consistent code organization pattern so I don’t have to guess how it all works. Take a look at the source code for something like WordPress or WooCommerce. These are mature projects. And yet it’s hard to shake the feeling that it’s all spaghetti inclusions. But also there are many other issues with PHP that I mentioned in a prior comment. Here, if you’d like for a better read on the subject than I can produce: https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
- Aeolun 6y ago
  > I do think code organization is one of the primary jobs of a programming language/ecosystem. I want my tools to help me be better about that, not worse. Isn’t splitting up all your classes into separate files considered to be a good thing? Considering how huge we can make files in JS I’m sort of inclined to consider that a problem instead of a feature. I think any project that started around PHP 4/5 will look like Wordpress. Looking at more recent projects (after PSR’s became a thing) would be more representative.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    It is but when you use third party code, what guarantees do you have that it didn’t do something stupid like declare a variable like $TIMEOUT? Whether on purpose or by accident. And of course any class or function become global even if you run include/require inside the body of a function or a method.
    - megous 6y ago
      Include inside the body of an anonymous function if you care about toplevel $TIMEOUT=123 overriding some global variable. Anyway you don't have any guarantees in JS either, for example. Imported module can just redefine Date object prototype or any global via globalThis. If you don't trust the libraries to not make a mess, don't use them is the only real solution. And it will be completely silent as opposed to PHP failing loudly when you try to redefine constant or class or function.
      - IgorPartola 6y ago
        Variables would stay inside the scope of your anonymous function. Functions and classes will become defined globally. Surprise!

Aeolun 6y ago

Ah, I don’t think so. It’s a different way of thinking about it, but it’s hardly broken. It’s only broken if you expect files to be modules and they’re not. It’s just as (if not more) confusing if you go from PHP to JS and expect modules to work like files.