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Yes I get what you're saying. It is transient in the sense that all civilizations have an arc or cycle that involves greatness and then decadence. However, wha

Yes I get what you're saying. It is transient in the sense that all civilizations have an arc or cycle that involves greatness and then decadence. However, what I'm talking about is not a perfect set of selfless angels in the ruling class but rather a sense of virtue to counteract the natural tendency of wielding power in a self serving nature. I really see very little of that virtue at all right now. As a very crass but serious example of that, when I was growing up no one in a place of authority was trying to convince me that I (a male) was a girl whereas children growing up now are having to deal with that.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> However, what I'm talking about is not a perfect set of selfless angels in the ruling class but rather a sense of virtue to counteract the natural tendency of wielding power in a self serving nature Yeah, that's what I'm talking about too. I'm saying that human nature being what it is, having that not be almost totally dominated by the self-interest and exploitatiin when you have a separate and distinct ruling class is something that isn't ever going to be a stable thing, but only a momentary exception.
- googthrowaway42 6y ago
  I think I'm less pessimistic than you are but I get where you're coming from. According to Pareto (yes, that Pareto), there is a natural ebb and flow of this sort of national vs self interest that exists within the ruling class. In a healthy society there is more circulation in and out of the ruling class which allows those with more of a national interest to dominate when that is necessary. If there is too much self interest within the ruling class and not enough circulation it ends up "killing the host". I would definitely recommend the book "The Machiavellians" by James Burnham for a formal survey of these sort of ideas. Pareto is one of these Machiavellians and so his work is analyzed.
api 6y ago
> As a very crass but serious example of that, when I was growing up no one in a place of authority was trying to convince me that I (a male) was a girl whereas children growing up now are having to deal with that. I'd like to see some statistics on this. Is this a common thing or just something that went viral once on social media? I know people from all over the political spectrum and I have neither seen nor heard of anyone doing this. I feel like you're placing far too much weight on an anecdote, and dare I say it appears you're being triggered by it. Liberals fall into this trap too, like pushing to ban plastic drinking straws because a pic of a cute animal damaged by a drinking straw went viral on Facebook. In reality banning plastic straws won't accomplish anything as that's not where 99%+ of ocean plastic comes from. In reality parents forcing gender identities on children that are different from their biological identity is just not a thing beyond an exceedingly small fringe-of-the-fringe. (I agree that this could well be child abuse, though I'd like to know the details before passing judgement.) In any case, if this were happening to you today you would have the option of approaching a teacher or counselor and reporting that it was occurring and that you were not okay with it. It's likely that this would get you a visit from CPS, or some other kind of intervention, in most states. Once you were old enough there are options like emancipation available. Those aren't great options, but options exist. In the good old days you'd have no recourse. There was no CPS. There was no emancipation. Your parents could have dressed you in women's clothes against your will or just plain kicked the crap out of you and well, they're your parents so shut up and behave. A hundred years ago parents more or less owned their children. While I'm sure forced gender reassignment was rare, physical and sexual abuse were not. They are still far, far more common than weird things like what you mention.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> However, what I'm talking about is not a perfect set of selfless angels in the ruling class but rather a sense of virtue to counteract the natural tendency of wielding power in a self serving nature Yeah, that's what I'm talking about too. I'm saying that human nature being what it is, having that not be almost totally dominated by the self-interest and exploitatiin when you have a separate and distinct ruling class is something that isn't ever going to be a stable thing, but only a momentary exception.

googthrowaway42 6y ago
I think I'm less pessimistic than you are but I get where you're coming from. According to Pareto (yes, that Pareto), there is a natural ebb and flow of this sort of national vs self interest that exists within the ruling class. In a healthy society there is more circulation in and out of the ruling class which allows those with more of a national interest to dominate when that is necessary. If there is too much self interest within the ruling class and not enough circulation it ends up "killing the host". I would definitely recommend the book "The Machiavellians" by James Burnham for a formal survey of these sort of ideas. Pareto is one of these Machiavellians and so his work is analyzed.

api 6y ago

> As a very crass but serious example of that, when I was growing up no one in a place of authority was trying to convince me that I (a male) was a girl whereas children growing up now are having to deal with that. I'd like to see some statistics on this. Is this a common thing or just something that went viral once on social media? I know people from all over the political spectrum and I have neither seen nor heard of anyone doing this. I feel like you're placing far too much weight on an anecdote, and dare I say it appears you're being triggered by it. Liberals fall into this trap too, like pushing to ban plastic drinking straws because a pic of a cute animal damaged by a drinking straw went viral on Facebook. In reality banning plastic straws won't accomplish anything as that's not where 99%+ of ocean plastic comes from. In reality parents forcing gender identities on children that are different from their biological identity is just not a thing beyond an exceedingly small fringe-of-the-fringe. (I agree that this could well be child abuse, though I'd like to know the details before passing judgement.) In any case, if this were happening to you today you would have the option of approaching a teacher or counselor and reporting that it was occurring and that you were not okay with it. It's likely that this would get you a visit from CPS, or some other kind of intervention, in most states. Once you were old enough there are options like emancipation available. Those aren't great options, but options exist. In the good old days you'd have no recourse. There was no CPS. There was no emancipation. Your parents could have dressed you in women's clothes against your will or just plain kicked the crap out of you and well, they're your parents so shut up and behave. A hundred years ago parents more or less owned their children. While I'm sure forced gender reassignment was rare, physical and sexual abuse were not. They are still far, far more common than weird things like what you mention.