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I don't know how someone ever could think this is a good idea and also got so many governments to implement this. Whoever is behind it, he or she is a genius of

I don't know how someone ever could think this is a good idea and also got so many governments to implement this. Whoever is behind it, he or she is a genius of evil. Let's ditch this nonsense now.

laurent92 6y ago
It is natural that work is shifted towards the morning and people have time after work in the evening for personal matters. People do what is most important in the morning, because we can focus better. Therefore worktimes need to follow the sunrise, especially beyond 45° latitudes where the sunrise shifts by more than 3 hrs between winter and summer.
- kingaillas 6y ago
  But why the changing of clock settings? Could have just shown up earlier to follow the sunrise?
  - bostonpete 6y ago
    Work schedules are often tied to all sorts of other schedules that limit flexibility -- things like school schedules, stock market or customer hours, published hours for retail or government offices, etc. If there's a practical benefit to schedule adjustment (and there is at certain latitudes), it can often only be realized by many if society as a whole shifts.
    - ryandrake 6y ago
      Society managed to simultaneously shift their entire collection of clocks twice a year. Is it really that much more of a pain to instead just say "we're all simultaneously going to work and school an hour earlier for a few months"?
      - ghaff 6y ago
        And then why the hell bother? You've now replaced a coordinated government-implemented system with a complete patchwork system at the company, school, and individual level.
  - ky3 6y ago
    Because numbers have meanings? So that 9-to-5 stays 9-to-5 the whole year round instead of 8-to-4, 7-to-3, 6-to-2?
    - yen223 6y ago
      If numbers had any meaning it would be even harder to justify a system where 1 hour after 2am is 2am
  - dahart 6y ago
    Because for most jobs in most locales, everyone has to agree together when the workday starts. It’s not an individual choice, it’s a collective decision.
- grey-area 6y ago
  Well let's do that then where it makes sense, instead of a sudden arbitrary shift by an hour for all clocks, which is nowhere near enough for a 3 hour shift anyway.
- someguydave 6y ago
  I can see this as an argument for year-round DST. Now defend falling back one hour in the winter, when by your own admission a one hour shift will be insufficient to align with sunrise.
  - dahart 6y ago
    If you stay on DST through the winter, most places in the US will have a morning commute in the dark. The reason we switch is to keep the sunrise just slightly more even. The annual swing in sunrise time is just under 3 hours. With a DST switch, the swing becomes less than 2 hours, at the cost of switching twice.
    - sojournerc 6y ago
      It's still the same swing in sunlight time, just masked by changing the clocks. Some people will prefer sun in the morning, others in the afternoon. The answer is to allow flexibility of schedule to accommodate preferences, not switching clocks. It doesn't do anything other than mess with routines. Daylight is not saved, or extended.
      - dahart 6y ago
        > The answer is to allow flexibility of schedule That works for a lot of us in tech with online computer jobs, but simply is not realistic yet for most of the world’s laborers. > Daylight is not saved, or extended. This is a framing, it depends on your point of view. Certainly I’ll agree the term “daylight savings” was conceived as a positive spin on the idea. On the other hand, if you take it as a given that work hours are 9-5, and that most people will wake ~2 hours before work to get ready, then updating the clocks relative to the work day does, in fact, give you more daylight evening time in the summer.
        ghaff 6y ago
        Yes. I can assure that most retail and service industries, to pick just two examples, are going to be keeping the same hours year round.
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  > People do what is most important in the morning, because we can focus better. There's a huge [citation needed] to add here. Also, needs a citation for people still being able to focus better at the morning after their clock is switched.
user5994461 6y ago
This was done to save electricity. More direct sun, less light and heating. Historically in France the saving was equivalent to the whole consumption of the city of Paris over the day (maybe 10-20% of the whole country). It seems people don't care about energy anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- mchusma 6y ago
  This was a theory not really backed by evidence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time (Maybe a tiny electricity decrease and heating usage increase on average, depending on latitude - which would lead to more CO2 emissions overall, depending on the power source). I think the idea of "change time to save power" was a fine experiment, but it clearly failed to produce meaningful results so we can stop the experiment.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    It is backed by numbers. Currently in France 17% of electricity consumption goes to lightning, including 12% for public lightning. It's moving down with newer lamps using less energy and other sectors using more. You have to think that daylight saving time was introduced almost a hundred years ago (heavily variable per region) when a significant amount of the electricity was going to (public) lightning, using lights available at the time that were very energy hungry and very inefficient. There was a reason it was done. Seriously, it was not a failed experiment carried out by idiots, like some commenters seem to think. Usage evolved and might have made DST worthless or counterproductive, if anything removing DST might show the importance of adjusting time to match energy consumption.
- ChrisLomont 6y ago
  “ Our main finding is that -- contrary to the policy's intent -- DST increases residential electricity demand.” [1] When you trade lighting costs for heating costs DST may well be more expensive. [1] https://www.nber.org/papers/w14429 https://www.nber.org/papers/w14429
  - 6y ago
mynameishere 6y ago
Every time it happens I imagine Nigel Tufnel was worldwide emperor at some point and just said, "Well, it's one later, isn't it?" And everybody just said, "Huh". And here we are.
dahart 6y ago
> I don’t know how someone ever could think this is a good idea Why is that? Whether or not it’s still a good idea, lots of people have thought so in the past. You don’t see the fact that governments have implemented it as evidence that there has been consensus and something legitimate there you might have missed? I honestly don’t care if daylight saving is abolished, but when I was younger, I used to think like you do that daylight savings was nonsense and should be ditched. But since then I’ve looked at the sunrise charts and realized what happens in the summer without daylight savings, and I changed my mind, I like what happens. Without daylight savings, summer nights are short and summer mornings the sun comes up at 4am and I sleep through some of the usable sunlight. Daylight savings is an attempt to normalize sunrise time. What, exactly, is “evil” about that? Take a look at the annual sunrise times where you live and check out what happens with and without daylight savings https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/san-francisco https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/san-francisco
- Ensorceled 6y ago
  > What, exactly, is “evil” about that? People literally die because of the change. Every year, extra people die so you can enjoy more sunshine in summer evenings. You dismissed these deaths because you "like what happens".
  - dahart 6y ago
    I did not dismiss any deaths. What are you referring to, the morning commute? Daylight Savings time was invented before the mass morning commute via car even existed. If there are reasons to get rid of DST now for public safety, I’m for it. But if avoiding fatal car crashes is the goal... maybe getting rid of cars is the solution, rather than obsessing over the very marginal effects of DST? Do you drive a car?
  - DangitBobby 6y ago
    This is ridiculous. > People literally die because vending machines fall on top of them. Every year people die so you can enjoy more chips at lunch. You dismissed these deaths because you like what happens.
- 6y ago

I don't know how someone ever could think this is a good idea and also got so many governments to implement this. Whoever is behind it, he or she is a genius of evil. Let's ditch this nonsense now.

laurent92 6y ago

It is natural that work is shifted towards the morning and people have time after work in the evening for personal matters. People do what is most important in the morning, because we can focus better. Therefore worktimes need to follow the sunrise, especially beyond 45° latitudes where the sunrise shifts by more than 3 hrs between winter and summer.

kingaillas 6y ago
But why the changing of clock settings? Could have just shown up earlier to follow the sunrise?
- bostonpete 6y ago
  Work schedules are often tied to all sorts of other schedules that limit flexibility -- things like school schedules, stock market or customer hours, published hours for retail or government offices, etc. If there's a practical benefit to schedule adjustment (and there is at certain latitudes), it can often only be realized by many if society as a whole shifts.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    Society managed to simultaneously shift their entire collection of clocks twice a year. Is it really that much more of a pain to instead just say "we're all simultaneously going to work and school an hour earlier for a few months"?
    - ghaff 6y ago
      And then why the hell bother? You've now replaced a coordinated government-implemented system with a complete patchwork system at the company, school, and individual level.
- ky3 6y ago
  Because numbers have meanings? So that 9-to-5 stays 9-to-5 the whole year round instead of 8-to-4, 7-to-3, 6-to-2?
  - yen223 6y ago
    If numbers had any meaning it would be even harder to justify a system where 1 hour after 2am is 2am
- dahart 6y ago
  Because for most jobs in most locales, everyone has to agree together when the workday starts. It’s not an individual choice, it’s a collective decision.
grey-area 6y ago
Well let's do that then where it makes sense, instead of a sudden arbitrary shift by an hour for all clocks, which is nowhere near enough for a 3 hour shift anyway.
someguydave 6y ago
I can see this as an argument for year-round DST. Now defend falling back one hour in the winter, when by your own admission a one hour shift will be insufficient to align with sunrise.
- dahart 6y ago
  If you stay on DST through the winter, most places in the US will have a morning commute in the dark. The reason we switch is to keep the sunrise just slightly more even. The annual swing in sunrise time is just under 3 hours. With a DST switch, the swing becomes less than 2 hours, at the cost of switching twice.
  - sojournerc 6y ago
    It's still the same swing in sunlight time, just masked by changing the clocks. Some people will prefer sun in the morning, others in the afternoon. The answer is to allow flexibility of schedule to accommodate preferences, not switching clocks. It doesn't do anything other than mess with routines. Daylight is not saved, or extended.
    - dahart 6y ago
      > The answer is to allow flexibility of schedule That works for a lot of us in tech with online computer jobs, but simply is not realistic yet for most of the world’s laborers. > Daylight is not saved, or extended. This is a framing, it depends on your point of view. Certainly I’ll agree the term “daylight savings” was conceived as a positive spin on the idea. On the other hand, if you take it as a given that work hours are 9-5, and that most people will wake ~2 hours before work to get ready, then updating the clocks relative to the work day does, in fact, give you more daylight evening time in the summer.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Yes. I can assure that most retail and service industries, to pick just two examples, are going to be keeping the same hours year round.
marcosdumay 6y ago
> People do what is most important in the morning, because we can focus better. There's a huge [citation needed] to add here. Also, needs a citation for people still being able to focus better at the morning after their clock is switched.

user5994461 6y ago

This was done to save electricity. More direct sun, less light and heating. Historically in France the saving was equivalent to the whole consumption of the city of Paris over the day (maybe 10-20% of the whole country). It seems people don't care about energy anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

mchusma 6y ago
This was a theory not really backed by evidence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time (Maybe a tiny electricity decrease and heating usage increase on average, depending on latitude - which would lead to more CO2 emissions overall, depending on the power source). I think the idea of "change time to save power" was a fine experiment, but it clearly failed to produce meaningful results so we can stop the experiment.
- user5994461 6y ago
  It is backed by numbers. Currently in France 17% of electricity consumption goes to lightning, including 12% for public lightning. It's moving down with newer lamps using less energy and other sectors using more. You have to think that daylight saving time was introduced almost a hundred years ago (heavily variable per region) when a significant amount of the electricity was going to (public) lightning, using lights available at the time that were very energy hungry and very inefficient. There was a reason it was done. Seriously, it was not a failed experiment carried out by idiots, like some commenters seem to think. Usage evolved and might have made DST worthless or counterproductive, if anything removing DST might show the importance of adjusting time to match energy consumption.
ChrisLomont 6y ago
“ Our main finding is that -- contrary to the policy's intent -- DST increases residential electricity demand.” [1] When you trade lighting costs for heating costs DST may well be more expensive. [1] https://www.nber.org/papers/w14429 https://www.nber.org/papers/w14429
- 6y ago

mynameishere 6y ago

Every time it happens I imagine Nigel Tufnel was worldwide emperor at some point and just said, "Well, it's one later, isn't it?" And everybody just said, "Huh". And here we are.

dahart 6y ago

> I don’t know how someone ever could think this is a good idea Why is that? Whether or not it’s still a good idea, lots of people have thought so in the past. You don’t see the fact that governments have implemented it as evidence that there has been consensus and something legitimate there you might have missed? I honestly don’t care if daylight saving is abolished, but when I was younger, I used to think like you do that daylight savings was nonsense and should be ditched. But since then I’ve looked at the sunrise charts and realized what happens in the summer without daylight savings, and I changed my mind, I like what happens. Without daylight savings, summer nights are short and summer mornings the sun comes up at 4am and I sleep through some of the usable sunlight. Daylight savings is an attempt to normalize sunrise time. What, exactly, is “evil” about that? Take a look at the annual sunrise times where you live and check out what happens with and without daylight savings https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/san-francisco https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/san-francisco

Ensorceled 6y ago
> What, exactly, is “evil” about that? People literally die because of the change. Every year, extra people die so you can enjoy more sunshine in summer evenings. You dismissed these deaths because you "like what happens".
- dahart 6y ago
  I did not dismiss any deaths. What are you referring to, the morning commute? Daylight Savings time was invented before the mass morning commute via car even existed. If there are reasons to get rid of DST now for public safety, I’m for it. But if avoiding fatal car crashes is the goal... maybe getting rid of cars is the solution, rather than obsessing over the very marginal effects of DST? Do you drive a car?
- DangitBobby 6y ago
  This is ridiculous. > People literally die because vending machines fall on top of them. Every year people die so you can enjoy more chips at lunch. You dismissed these deaths because you like what happens.
6y ago