14 ms·

Ironically, a lot of the world has seen the USA do this to everyone else for a while too. Too a lesser degree to their anglophone friends of course but the rest

Ironically, a lot of the world has seen the USA do this to everyone else for a while too. Too a lesser degree to their anglophone friends of course but the rest of the world is alien and unlikable all the same (with just as little arguments as you see in the political divide). I suppose one could argue that the isolationism/tribalism has simply expanded inwards as 'the rest of the world' has already been put in the 'other people/cultures' box and only internal boxing up of each other remains.

the-dude 6y ago
I doubt the phenomenon has anything to do with the US in the ROW. Here in NL, a NATO member, it has been primarily the 'left' which has been painting groups with different opinions as 'nazis' 'fascists' etc. Vegans describing other people as murderers. I blame this culture for our last political murder [0] which already happened in 2002. This phenomenon is not new, I think it has to do with the dissolution of the USSR and with it, the ultimate defeat of the original ideals of the 'left'. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  The left (at least, the internet left) do this here in the UK too. Twitter seems to think all Tory voters are rich white men who want the poor to suffer. Now I don't know if I'm in a bubble, because when I leave the internet and talk to actual lefties in person we always find a common ground. Hell, I have a friend group containing both anarcho communists and globalist one-world government types.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    Have you seen the article posted here this week which claimed the main narrative on Twitter was only originating from about 6 people? For a long time now, the social media have been embraced by 'progressives'. I see them destroying themselves. Trump's 'surprise' election in 2016 fits in this : people don't voice their moderate opinion anymore, they vote however they want though.
    - throwaway3699 6y ago
      > Have you seen the article posted here this week which claimed the main narrative on Twitter was only originating from about 6 people? Do you have a link?
      - quicklime 6y ago
        I'm not sure which post they were referring to, but here's one that I saw (from HN) recently: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/10/15/differences-in-how-democrats-and-republicans-behave-on-twitter/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/10/15/differences-... "6 people" seems to be an exaggeration, but most tweets are generated by a minority of Twitter users. And Twitter users themselves tend to be more political than the general population. So what you see on Twitter is representative of the more hardcore partisans, not the mainstream. > > > The left (at least, the internet left) do this here in the UK too. Twitter seems to think all Tory voters are rich white men who want the poor to suffer. On a similar note, most conservatives that I talk to think that everyone on the left is a social justice warrior who wants white men to suffer. I suspect a big part of the problem is that our views of the other side are based on the most extreme people from that side. This is certainly the view that'll be formed if one tries to "get a balance of views from both sides on social media" (you can't get a balanced view if you're only seeing extremists from both sides).
        highmastdon 6y ago
        What strikes me is that it seems each side only thinks in the outcome of the others’ parties rethoric instead of the contents. Maybe that’s also what’s at core of the matter of this polarisation.
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    > all Tory voters are rich white men who want the poor to suffer. The recent vote on school meals certainly didn't help that image
    - throwaway3699 6y ago
      Agreed, but now we have some real criticism of the Tories, it's just noise to them because they're used to the constant hate. This is one of the issues with constant outrage.
- api 6y ago
  That is true but a one sided take, at least over here in the USA. Here the right and the left seem to escalate in tandem. The extreme far right now calls anyone they disagree with a literal Satanic baby eating pedophiles. This also identities the left entirely with Marxism-Leninism which is like identifying the right entirely with fascism.
- morsch 6y ago
  How would you know that it's primarily the left (whatever that is) doing that in NL. Your own observations are not a good source for this, obviously.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    If I just casually follow the mainstream media NL ( in addition to my own preferred sources ), why am I not a good source for this? What would be a good source for this?
    - morsch 6y ago
      Because your own observations are going to be influenced by your own politics. The media, too, has a political slant, regardless of whether it's mainstream or not. And before anyone chimes in with the meme that the media has a liberal slant: The largest newspaper in the Netherlands is a right wing tabloid -- same as in most if not all European countries. I'm not sure what a good source would be. Maybe there is none.
- vinay427 6y ago
  > Vegans describing other people as murderers. Well, this is literally true if you consider non-human lives. The danger I see is then not listening to and interacting with these non-vegans to develop a more nuanced perspective of the people on "the other side" who may not be very different after all. Stating a legitimate political or moral view alone is not (itself) what induces polarization, as I see it.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - the-dude 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder If you want redefine language, that is fine, but in real life I will not accept being called a murderer. 1984 was not a manual.
    - vinay427 6y ago
      > in real life I will not accept being called a murderer. What do you mean by not accepting it? You're welcome to disagree with the classification, of course. That's how we start a hearty discussion on values, morals, politics, etc. In real life, I would also hope that I use a more tactful strategy that doesn't immediately fall back on a term that will polarize my interlocutor.
      - the-dude 6y ago
        > What do you mean by not accepting it? I will make sure you will never call me a criminal of the worst kind ever again. In my experience, not very much is needed.
        throwaway_hey 6y ago
        I’m not sure that’s going to help bridge the gap. Further re-trenching is the exact type of thing this article is warning against, no?
- blablablerg 6y ago
  I am also from NL, and first of all, you are blaming a big and diverse group, the 'left', for unnuanced statements and regrettable actions of some individuals. Every group has its crazies. Doesn't mean the whole 'left' is like that. Second, they may be right. Which groups with 'different opinions' are you talking about? Geert Wilders has been convicted for libel against ethnic minorities. And Baudet has said that he wants Europe to be mostly white [1]. Third, now overgeneralizing myself, the 'right' does the same thing too: calling people on the left 'profiteers', crazy and lazy hippies who wanto to avoid any labor, etc. In fact, you are blaming the political left in your post right now for the murder of Pim Fortuyn, based on vague and unsubstantiated claims. You are doing the same thing you blame the left for. And lastly, the original ideals from the left are very much needed in this neoliberal climate where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The economic divide is growing. Even the VVD is moving towards the left, seeing that the capitalist race has gone too far. One example: the Netherlands has a very serious housing crisis right now caused by neoliberalism. From the credit crisis to selling and reducing out the social housing stock, investors only wanting to build high end apartments, etc. In the last debate about it, the VVD was advocating for a bigger role in housing, that ideal is tradionally associated with the left. So please, don't polarize, overgeneralize and blame the whole left for murder and name-calling. Using your line of reasoning again, it is not like the 'right' is in a good place right now with their corona denial and Qanon conspiracies. [1] https://www.ad.nl/politiek/baudet-verliest-zaak-tegen-buitenhof-mede-door-zijn-eerdere-uitspraken-over-blank-europa~aca39409/ https://www.ad.nl/politiek/baudet-verliest-zaak-tegen-buiten...
  - the-dude 6y ago
    I will only respond to one part of your rebuttal : do you think being called 'crazy or lazy' is in any way comparable to being called a fascist, nazi or murderer? I don't think so.
    - throwaway_hey 6y ago
      I agree. The President’s son, a prominent figure in the right, shouldn’t be comparing Democrats to Nazis. Surely that would upset you. =="You see the Nazi platform in the early 1930s and what was actually put out there ... and you look at it compared to like the DNC platform of today, and you're saying, man, those things are awfully similar, to a point where it's actually scary," Trump Jr. said.== https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/02/politics/donald-trump-jr-dinesh-dsouza/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/02/politics/donald-trump-jr-dine... Also, there was the time the President called people who cross the southern border as “rapists”. == They're sending people that have lots of problems...they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.== https://www.cbsnews.com/news/election-2016-donald-trump-defends-calling-mexican-immigrants-rapists/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/election-2016-donald-trump-defe...
- sleepysysadmin 6y ago
  >This phenomenon is not new, I think it has to do with the dissolution of the USSR and with it, the ultimate defeat of the original ideals of the 'left'. You hit the nail on the head. USSR's failure and realization that they only survived as long as they did because they stole everything from the G8 countries and had slave labour of gulags. Add in China's 'special economic zones' which is basically China implementing capitalism in a safe way. This implementation of capitalism has enabled them to greatly boost their economy. Unfortunately causing hyper globalization. Communism demise has lead to them been rebranded countless times now. Fundamentally the collapse of communism worldwide has created lots of frustration. Which is a feeling that's built in to the animal kingdom. The unfortunate reality of this frustration is that almost certainly will result in violence.

the-dude 6y ago

I doubt the phenomenon has anything to do with the US in the ROW. Here in NL, a NATO member, it has been primarily the 'left' which has been painting groups with different opinions as 'nazis' 'fascists' etc. Vegans describing other people as murderers. I blame this culture for our last political murder [0] which already happened in 2002. This phenomenon is not new, I think it has to do with the dissolution of the USSR and with it, the ultimate defeat of the original ideals of the 'left'. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn

throwaway3699 6y ago
The left (at least, the internet left) do this here in the UK too. Twitter seems to think all Tory voters are rich white men who want the poor to suffer. Now I don't know if I'm in a bubble, because when I leave the internet and talk to actual lefties in person we always find a common ground. Hell, I have a friend group containing both anarcho communists and globalist one-world government types.
- the-dude 6y ago
  Have you seen the article posted here this week which claimed the main narrative on Twitter was only originating from about 6 people? For a long time now, the social media have been embraced by 'progressives'. I see them destroying themselves. Trump's 'surprise' election in 2016 fits in this : people don't voice their moderate opinion anymore, they vote however they want though.
  - throwaway3699 6y ago
    > Have you seen the article posted here this week which claimed the main narrative on Twitter was only originating from about 6 people? Do you have a link?
    - quicklime 6y ago
      I'm not sure which post they were referring to, but here's one that I saw (from HN) recently: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/10/15/differences-in-how-democrats-and-republicans-behave-on-twitter/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/10/15/differences-... "6 people" seems to be an exaggeration, but most tweets are generated by a minority of Twitter users. And Twitter users themselves tend to be more political than the general population. So what you see on Twitter is representative of the more hardcore partisans, not the mainstream. > > > The left (at least, the internet left) do this here in the UK too. Twitter seems to think all Tory voters are rich white men who want the poor to suffer. On a similar note, most conservatives that I talk to think that everyone on the left is a social justice warrior who wants white men to suffer. I suspect a big part of the problem is that our views of the other side are based on the most extreme people from that side. This is certainly the view that'll be formed if one tries to "get a balance of views from both sides on social media" (you can't get a balanced view if you're only seeing extremists from both sides).
      - highmastdon 6y ago
        What strikes me is that it seems each side only thinks in the outcome of the others’ parties rethoric instead of the contents. Maybe that’s also what’s at core of the matter of this polarisation.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  > all Tory voters are rich white men who want the poor to suffer. The recent vote on school meals certainly didn't help that image
  - throwaway3699 6y ago
    Agreed, but now we have some real criticism of the Tories, it's just noise to them because they're used to the constant hate. This is one of the issues with constant outrage.
api 6y ago
That is true but a one sided take, at least over here in the USA. Here the right and the left seem to escalate in tandem. The extreme far right now calls anyone they disagree with a literal Satanic baby eating pedophiles. This also identities the left entirely with Marxism-Leninism which is like identifying the right entirely with fascism.
morsch 6y ago
How would you know that it's primarily the left (whatever that is) doing that in NL. Your own observations are not a good source for this, obviously.
- the-dude 6y ago
  If I just casually follow the mainstream media NL ( in addition to my own preferred sources ), why am I not a good source for this? What would be a good source for this?
  - morsch 6y ago
    Because your own observations are going to be influenced by your own politics. The media, too, has a political slant, regardless of whether it's mainstream or not. And before anyone chimes in with the meme that the media has a liberal slant: The largest newspaper in the Netherlands is a right wing tabloid -- same as in most if not all European countries. I'm not sure what a good source would be. Maybe there is none.
vinay427 6y ago
> Vegans describing other people as murderers. Well, this is literally true if you consider non-human lives. The danger I see is then not listening to and interacting with these non-vegans to develop a more nuanced perspective of the people on "the other side" who may not be very different after all. Stating a legitimate political or moral view alone is not (itself) what induces polarization, as I see it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- the-dude 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder If you want redefine language, that is fine, but in real life I will not accept being called a murderer. 1984 was not a manual.
  - vinay427 6y ago
    > in real life I will not accept being called a murderer. What do you mean by not accepting it? You're welcome to disagree with the classification, of course. That's how we start a hearty discussion on values, morals, politics, etc. In real life, I would also hope that I use a more tactful strategy that doesn't immediately fall back on a term that will polarize my interlocutor.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      > What do you mean by not accepting it? I will make sure you will never call me a criminal of the worst kind ever again. In my experience, not very much is needed.
      - throwaway_hey 6y ago
        I’m not sure that’s going to help bridge the gap. Further re-trenching is the exact type of thing this article is warning against, no?
blablablerg 6y ago
I am also from NL, and first of all, you are blaming a big and diverse group, the 'left', for unnuanced statements and regrettable actions of some individuals. Every group has its crazies. Doesn't mean the whole 'left' is like that. Second, they may be right. Which groups with 'different opinions' are you talking about? Geert Wilders has been convicted for libel against ethnic minorities. And Baudet has said that he wants Europe to be mostly white [1]. Third, now overgeneralizing myself, the 'right' does the same thing too: calling people on the left 'profiteers', crazy and lazy hippies who wanto to avoid any labor, etc. In fact, you are blaming the political left in your post right now for the murder of Pim Fortuyn, based on vague and unsubstantiated claims. You are doing the same thing you blame the left for. And lastly, the original ideals from the left are very much needed in this neoliberal climate where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The economic divide is growing. Even the VVD is moving towards the left, seeing that the capitalist race has gone too far. One example: the Netherlands has a very serious housing crisis right now caused by neoliberalism. From the credit crisis to selling and reducing out the social housing stock, investors only wanting to build high end apartments, etc. In the last debate about it, the VVD was advocating for a bigger role in housing, that ideal is tradionally associated with the left. So please, don't polarize, overgeneralize and blame the whole left for murder and name-calling. Using your line of reasoning again, it is not like the 'right' is in a good place right now with their corona denial and Qanon conspiracies. [1] https://www.ad.nl/politiek/baudet-verliest-zaak-tegen-buitenhof-mede-door-zijn-eerdere-uitspraken-over-blank-europa~aca39409/ https://www.ad.nl/politiek/baudet-verliest-zaak-tegen-buiten...
- the-dude 6y ago
  I will only respond to one part of your rebuttal : do you think being called 'crazy or lazy' is in any way comparable to being called a fascist, nazi or murderer? I don't think so.
  - throwaway_hey 6y ago
    I agree. The President’s son, a prominent figure in the right, shouldn’t be comparing Democrats to Nazis. Surely that would upset you. =="You see the Nazi platform in the early 1930s and what was actually put out there ... and you look at it compared to like the DNC platform of today, and you're saying, man, those things are awfully similar, to a point where it's actually scary," Trump Jr. said.== https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/02/politics/donald-trump-jr-dinesh-dsouza/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/02/politics/donald-trump-jr-dine... Also, there was the time the President called people who cross the southern border as “rapists”. == They're sending people that have lots of problems...they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.== https://www.cbsnews.com/news/election-2016-donald-trump-defends-calling-mexican-immigrants-rapists/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/election-2016-donald-trump-defe...
sleepysysadmin 6y ago
>This phenomenon is not new, I think it has to do with the dissolution of the USSR and with it, the ultimate defeat of the original ideals of the 'left'. You hit the nail on the head. USSR's failure and realization that they only survived as long as they did because they stole everything from the G8 countries and had slave labour of gulags. Add in China's 'special economic zones' which is basically China implementing capitalism in a safe way. This implementation of capitalism has enabled them to greatly boost their economy. Unfortunately causing hyper globalization. Communism demise has lead to them been rebranded countless times now. Fundamentally the collapse of communism worldwide has created lots of frustration. Which is a feeling that's built in to the animal kingdom. The unfortunate reality of this frustration is that almost certainly will result in violence.