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It is often downvoted to talk about the "javascript crowd" on HN, but I've worked in software industry long enough to unequivocally and with certainty say that

It is often downvoted to talk about the "javascript crowd" on HN, but I've worked in software industry long enough to unequivocally and with certainty say that it totally lives up to the cliches. It never gets old to scold people that are not serious, disciplined and principled in their endeavors that affect the rest of the world. Javascript community absolutely deserves the avalanche of criticisms they face. It is the reason why the modern web sucks, and frankly - I wish folks at Postgres would develop a new web standards including browsers that are not governed by corporations and can be implemented in a couple of weeks. Not trivializing what goes into building browsers, but making the whole standard small enough so any one can build a browser during a sabbatical.

dfee 6y ago
That’s quite the perspective. It’s a big enough world where you don’t have to interact with every technology that exists, but this is one of the more prevalent ones - and you might find it useful to make peace with that community. Anyway, good luck out there.
noir_lord 6y ago
I'm seeing this in action now, the difference between the backend code and the frontend code is stark and the backend code isn't up to my standard either (and my standards aren't that high, I know I'm merely competent for many places). It just seems to be the nature of the web side of things, lots of sloppiness. The devs are smart enough, they just don't think and it shows. That or they use something but clearly don't understand the thing they are using. I replaced nearly 500 lines of code with ~60 by taking a bunch of massive conditonals re-ordering them then extracting them into methods and returning on the simple case. This isn't voodoo, you have to work harder and remember more to do it the wrong way. Also comments, they don't seem to understand you document why you did the thing, not what you did, what you did is in the code, I don't trust your comments to tell me what you did, I want to know why you did it. That and general documentation (cross link stuff, link at the top of the class to the documentation in the wiki, update the documentation when you get a ticket that changes the behaviour, write the high level flow in plain english a 10 year old could understand). rant over. I actually like my job, the people are lovely and the work is interesting its just frustrating when an ounce of thought saves a pound of cure.
- soneca 6y ago
  Should I assume from your comment that you never saw code worth improving other than those written by JavaScript developers?
  - noir_lord 6y ago
    No.
  - robertlagrant 6y ago
    Ah, pointless exclusion of the middle.
- edoceo 6y ago
  Hello fellow "merely competent" engineer. I recommend we both remove "merely" from our title. Inexperience grows from the bottom, I've gotten "better" by simply being too stubborn to get worse. Keep up the mediocre work!
  - donw 6y ago
    > Inexperience grows from the bottom, I've gotten "better" by simply being too stubborn to get worse. That is quite possibly one of the best quotes I have heard on how to approach discipline in engineering.
    - systemvoltage 6y ago
      I don't understand, can you please explain? > Inexperience grows from the bottom In what way? > I've gotten "better" by simply being too stubborn to get worse How does one get better by wanting to get worse? This makes no sense to me.
      - btschaegg 6y ago
        I read it as "refusing to get worse". Which implies that your environmnent is getting worse, making you better by comparison. I'm not sure I agree, but I can understand the sentiment.
soneca 6y ago
Please explain further what negative characteristics do you apply to the ”js crowd“ as a whole. As a developer who only develops in JavaScript, I feel personally attacked by your post, so I would appreciate if your attack could be more specific to the point of being constructive or at least informative.
erokar 6y ago
Typical bitter backend developer spew. Works with Java or C# and hasn't explored much more than OO and procedural. Threatened by anything new, creative or explorative. Stuck in his ways and prefers to do mundane, uncreative and repetetive tasks, like writing boilerplate to get stuff in and out of a database. Soon to be automated away by serverless.
- jschwartzi 6y ago
  Good luck running serverless code in a lightbulb.
  - outside1234 6y ago
    https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/iot-edge https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/iot-edge
    - jschwartzi 6y ago
      Last time I looked at Azure IoT Hub for anything I was baffled by the way their system used MQTT but didn't provide general-purpose MQTT access. Frankly they're not a great example of a company understanding how these devices are supposed to work.
- api 6y ago
  Ooh, permanent lock in to a single company’s bill by the second mainframe! How exciting!
  - tinkertamper 6y ago
    I see this criticism a lot for serverless but I don’t see it in reality. Serverless is still just running code, the only part that wouldn’t be portable is the entrypoint data structure which is amounts to practically nothing.
    - api 6y ago
postit 6y ago
I agree. We’ve also spent the last 10 years trying to make web app behave like desktop apps and they are still not matching.
dkarl 6y ago
It's a stereotype, and like a lot of stereotypes, it has a little bit of statistical truth, but I don't think it does justice for the excellent front-end engineers that do exist and whom I've worked with personally. That said, there is some truth in it. The thing about the back end is that there's no satisfaction in it other than the satisfaction of doing it well and earning the esteem of peers, so most back end developers are paying attention to the quality of the code they write. The front end has other attractions as well, and many front-end developers start out focused on those attractions, and learn by experience (if they learn at all) that writing high quality code is related to the cool stuff that got them into programming in the first place.
- jbverschoor 6y ago
  Sorry, but I can’t agree. Yes, they are capable of making great software, but it’s exactly what gp said... they don’t think. I’ve seen so much code which looks nice from the outside, abd is all structured. But if you start reading, I’m riddled wtfs and questions about why things weren’t done in a more simple concise and stable way.
  - watermelon59 6y ago
    That's my experience too. Recently had to deal with some Slack bot written in js at work, and my coworkers had to deal with me ranting about that crap for a whole afternoon. The way I put it was, this code was written in the most complicated way possible, for no apparent reason.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  I didn't mean us to be divisive. Backend engineers need good front-end partners to be successful. Front-end engineers depend on the backend folk to not fuck shit up, which happens time and again. I meant that the developer community, the folks that are at the helm of developing Javascript frameworks (gahhhh!) and other shenanigans, the entire browser based ecosystem just reeks of incompetence, lack of discipline and rigor. Frontend and Backend engineers should get together and build a better system that serves both well. That's what I meant by asking Postgres core devs to build front-end tools, something like Gemini [1]. [1] https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ https://gemini.circumlunar.space/

dfee 6y ago

That’s quite the perspective. It’s a big enough world where you don’t have to interact with every technology that exists, but this is one of the more prevalent ones - and you might find it useful to make peace with that community. Anyway, good luck out there.

noir_lord 6y ago

I'm seeing this in action now, the difference between the backend code and the frontend code is stark and the backend code isn't up to my standard either (and my standards aren't that high, I know I'm merely competent for many places). It just seems to be the nature of the web side of things, lots of sloppiness. The devs are smart enough, they just don't think and it shows. That or they use something but clearly don't understand the thing they are using. I replaced nearly 500 lines of code with ~60 by taking a bunch of massive conditonals re-ordering them then extracting them into methods and returning on the simple case. This isn't voodoo, you have to work harder and remember more to do it the wrong way. Also comments, they don't seem to understand you document why you did the thing, not what you did, what you did is in the code, I don't trust your comments to tell me what you did, I want to know why you did it. That and general documentation (cross link stuff, link at the top of the class to the documentation in the wiki, update the documentation when you get a ticket that changes the behaviour, write the high level flow in plain english a 10 year old could understand). rant over. I actually like my job, the people are lovely and the work is interesting its just frustrating when an ounce of thought saves a pound of cure.

soneca 6y ago
Should I assume from your comment that you never saw code worth improving other than those written by JavaScript developers?
- noir_lord 6y ago
  No.
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  Ah, pointless exclusion of the middle.
edoceo 6y ago
Hello fellow "merely competent" engineer. I recommend we both remove "merely" from our title. Inexperience grows from the bottom, I've gotten "better" by simply being too stubborn to get worse. Keep up the mediocre work!
- donw 6y ago
  > Inexperience grows from the bottom, I've gotten "better" by simply being too stubborn to get worse. That is quite possibly one of the best quotes I have heard on how to approach discipline in engineering.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    I don't understand, can you please explain? > Inexperience grows from the bottom In what way? > I've gotten "better" by simply being too stubborn to get worse How does one get better by wanting to get worse? This makes no sense to me.
    - btschaegg 6y ago
      I read it as "refusing to get worse". Which implies that your environmnent is getting worse, making you better by comparison. I'm not sure I agree, but I can understand the sentiment.

soneca 6y ago

Please explain further what negative characteristics do you apply to the ”js crowd“ as a whole. As a developer who only develops in JavaScript, I feel personally attacked by your post, so I would appreciate if your attack could be more specific to the point of being constructive or at least informative.

erokar 6y ago

Typical bitter backend developer spew. Works with Java or C# and hasn't explored much more than OO and procedural. Threatened by anything new, creative or explorative. Stuck in his ways and prefers to do mundane, uncreative and repetetive tasks, like writing boilerplate to get stuff in and out of a database. Soon to be automated away by serverless.

jschwartzi 6y ago
Good luck running serverless code in a lightbulb.
- outside1234 6y ago
  https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/iot-edge https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/iot-edge
  - jschwartzi 6y ago
    Last time I looked at Azure IoT Hub for anything I was baffled by the way their system used MQTT but didn't provide general-purpose MQTT access. Frankly they're not a great example of a company understanding how these devices are supposed to work.
api 6y ago
Ooh, permanent lock in to a single company’s bill by the second mainframe! How exciting!
- tinkertamper 6y ago
  I see this criticism a lot for serverless but I don’t see it in reality. Serverless is still just running code, the only part that wouldn’t be portable is the entrypoint data structure which is amounts to practically nothing.
  - api 6y ago

postit 6y ago

I agree. We’ve also spent the last 10 years trying to make web app behave like desktop apps and they are still not matching.

dkarl 6y ago

It's a stereotype, and like a lot of stereotypes, it has a little bit of statistical truth, but I don't think it does justice for the excellent front-end engineers that do exist and whom I've worked with personally. That said, there is some truth in it. The thing about the back end is that there's no satisfaction in it other than the satisfaction of doing it well and earning the esteem of peers, so most back end developers are paying attention to the quality of the code they write. The front end has other attractions as well, and many front-end developers start out focused on those attractions, and learn by experience (if they learn at all) that writing high quality code is related to the cool stuff that got them into programming in the first place.

jbverschoor 6y ago
Sorry, but I can’t agree. Yes, they are capable of making great software, but it’s exactly what gp said... they don’t think. I’ve seen so much code which looks nice from the outside, abd is all structured. But if you start reading, I’m riddled wtfs and questions about why things weren’t done in a more simple concise and stable way.
- watermelon59 6y ago
  That's my experience too. Recently had to deal with some Slack bot written in js at work, and my coworkers had to deal with me ranting about that crap for a whole afternoon. The way I put it was, this code was written in the most complicated way possible, for no apparent reason.
systemvoltage 6y ago
I didn't mean us to be divisive. Backend engineers need good front-end partners to be successful. Front-end engineers depend on the backend folk to not fuck shit up, which happens time and again. I meant that the developer community, the folks that are at the helm of developing Javascript frameworks (gahhhh!) and other shenanigans, the entire browser based ecosystem just reeks of incompetence, lack of discipline and rigor. Frontend and Backend engineers should get together and build a better system that serves both well. That's what I meant by asking Postgres core devs to build front-end tools, something like Gemini [1]. [1] https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ https://gemini.circumlunar.space/