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Lobe.ai – A simple tool for training machine learning models
- cyptus 6y agoi am really looking for an ai service which is able to detect signatures and threads out of email messages and extract the „real new message“ part - does anyone know some tool?
- thelazydogsback 6y agoI don't think AI is needed here -- I wrote an Outlook plugin about 15 years ago that used fuzzy diff between messages in the thread that extracted only the new information added by each person and presented it as a message digest or as a labeled people digraph with msg-bubbles. For the life of me I don't understand why this isn't built in to all email clients -- the way gmail especially quotes replied emails, I need to spend time hunting up and down the message trying to recreate the timeline -- even getting the most recent bit seems harder than it should be. Do you use Outlook? -- If there is interest, I can try and resurrect it. Although it's not as necessary as it once was -- not as many "Re: re: FW: re: fw: hello!" messages now that people use Slack and Teams, etc.
- cyptus 6y agoyes i am using outlook, would be awesome to see some approach here. I thought of AI as there are so many different ways of mail thread formartings these days.
- ampdepolymerase 6y agoIt is curious that Microsoft kept Lobe alive post-acquisition.
- cohenjacobd 6y agoWe're very much alive and doing well :)
- ampdepolymerase 6y agoQuote a few of the Azure products resemble Lobe :)
- rlt 6y agoI will be very curious to see how this makes it into production applications. It demos extremely well, but that doesn’t necessarily translate into something that’s production ready.
- fblp 6y agoNice effort by Microsoft with a cool demo video. It looks like they haven't open sourced the app though: https://www.reddit.com/r/Lobe/comments/jj8nb2/source_code_for_the_desktop_app/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Lobe/comments/jj8nb2/source_code_fo... However, they do have opensourced bootstrap apps here: https://github.com/lobe https://github.com/lobe
- cohenjacobd 6y agoThanks! We hope the GitHub bootstraps help make it even easier to train a custom machine learning model and ship it in an app.
- awb 6y agoI must have missed it, but Lobe is owned by Microsoft. The product looks clean and well suited for CV 101 applications. Looks like a no-code meets AI solution. Anyone using it beyond research / personal project implementations?
- cohenjacobd 6y agoWe'd love to hear about any projects people are working on! We hope to see projects and ideas shared to our subreddit https://reddit.com/r/lobe https://reddit.com/r/lobe
- SamBam 6y agoI've been wanting for quite some time to build a device with a camera that could recognize my cat on the counter and turn on a servo that would release a jet of compressed air. It looks like I could actually use this for that.
- hijinks 6y agoyou could do that with openCV years ago
- jorl17 6y agoI think the point he is trying to make is that this tool seems to make it easier to the point he is willing to put in the effort/time.
- SamBam 6y agoExactly. Minus the job and kids, I'd love to have the time to learn all the tools I need for all the dozens of projects in my head. But if this makes it easier, it greatly increases the chance of the project actually happening. (And heck, I still have to work out how I'll actually send the signal to the servo...)
- EmilyHATFIELD 6y agoYou only need something like 30 lines of code to do it with openCV
- nurettin 6y agoUnless you have some feature detection for cats, I don't see how you can discern whether it is a cat or someone's arm.
- mbeissinger 6y agoI would love to see a video of that!
- winchester6788 6y ago
- Abishek_Muthian 6y agoIs there any recommendations for any other robust plant/insect/microbe identification ML solutions? I usually post in respective subreddits for identification, would think of a ML solution but never acted on it.
- rhizome 6y agoWhat's that old joke? Something like in the 1980s a Media Lab teacher gives the class a computer vision assignment where they're supposed to be able to tell whether or not an image contains a bird, and 40 years later they're still working on it? Lobe.ai reminds me of trying to identify plants with Google Goggles 10(ish?) years ago. It didn't work very well then, and then Google killed Goggles. Side note: none of the "click on the leaf feature" web-based plant identifiers gave a satisfactory answer either.
- jfengel 6y agoThere are a number of new apps that take a crack at it. I've been using PlantSnap, and it seems to do OK. It doesn't always get it, and I wouldn't stake my life on it, but it's been good for assuaging idle curiosity.
- nonfamous 6y agoSeek (the iOS) app works great -- I use it all the time on walks to identify plants (and even bugs and birds, if I can get close enough and they'll sit still). I think it's based on iNaturalist, which has a large community of professional botanists etc. collecting and classifying image data.
- SamBam 6y agoGoogle Lens (on the stock Android camera app) works pretty great for identifying plants to me. I'd say it's right about 95% of the time (in New England) if I can see a flower, and about 75% of the time for a leaf.
- kazinator 6y agoI've used Google Lens a little bit, to see if it could be used for object identification. It always seemes assume that I'm trying to buy something and tries to find products me that are somehow visually related to what it's looking at, or else to the content of some lettering that it's able to detect. So I gave up on it. Are there some settings I can tweak?
- 6y ago
- jononor 6y agoNeat way for Microsoft to have other developers build their labeled datasets, I guess.
- mbeissinger 6y agoHey Markus from Lobe here :) all images and labels stay private to your computer, we don't ever see any of it. We only collect some generic app usage data for telemetry if you opt-in to sharing analytics after installing Lobe.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- cle 6y agoHow can I verify that?
- RamonGilabert 6y agoYou can read our privacy policy, but more than that, you could use any sort of network traffic visualizer to see that we are not lying we are not in the business of selling data, we are in the business of making machine learning accessible to everyone.
- detaro 6y agoWhere is the app-specific privacy policy? the link the footer links to some general "Microsoft privacy policy", which covers all kinds of things and if it has anything specific to this app, it's impossible to find.
- vezycash 6y agoEDIT: I have Netlimiter installed: I was wrong, Lobe has done a little bit of communication online. It was the lobe backend process I checked previously. Downloaded 20.42kb and upload 5.78kb. (Screenshot https://ibb.co/VLbSHQv https://ibb.co/VLbSHQv) I turned off sending crash info, analytics... in settings.
- elwell 6y agoSeems to be marketed as 'machine learning', but upon closer look is only for machine learning on images. Anyone know of something similar for analysis of other kinds of data; particularly interested to analyze records (like spreadsheet data)? Love the info site design.
- mdifrgechd 6y agoUnder project templates - coming soon they say it will work with tabular data. I expect, as they allude to, it will begin with simple classification tasks in order to stick with the clean user experience they've built. But I'm super eager to see what they propose in this area.
- tomlue 6y agoI'm the founder, but you can use sysrev.com to review pdfs, json, text, etc. and assign labels / do annotations. You can see https://blog.sysrev.com/simple-ner/ https://blog.sysrev.com/simple-ner/ for how to build something like a gene named entity recognizer in text. We have mechanical turk like compensation tools too, but you'll need to ping me (tom@insilica.co) for access. There are other options for this too, I think spacy.io has an annotation app.
- mbeissinger 6y agoYep we are starting with image classification for this initial beta launch, but plan to expand to more data types and problem types in future releases! The vision is to make a tool usable by anyone to build custom machine learning
- RamonGilabert 6y agoWe are working on adding more project templates in the future, and Lobe is designed upon the idea that machine learning should be made easy—no matter the problem type you are facing.
- nabergh 6y agoClarifai does images + text (https://www.clarifai.com/ https://www.clarifai.com/).
- 6y ago
- Aldipower 6y agoI really like how the website is done. Visually and content-wise. It transports the message pretty well into my brain. Concise, not overloaded, good font sizes and looks good on mobile and desktop.
- adammenges 6y agoThanks!
- semi-extrinsic 6y agoMaybe this is just on Firefox Mobile, but for me there is an image of some berries and no text shown for 0.5 seconds, which then gets replaced by a black rectangle, and then text appears that is borderline impossible to read over the black rectangle. The first thing I see is basically broken to the point of uselessness. Edit: yep, on Chrome Mobile I actually see an animation and stuff seems to work. On Firefox it's borked.
- cohenjacobd 6y agoThanks for catching this! We're on it.
- vezycash 6y agoI trained Lobe with two labels - cats and dogs. In pictures where there are both dogs and cats, Lobe would say Dog or Cat instead of "Dog, cat." I had to create a separate label called "dog and cat." I hope you're working to remove this extra step in future.
- cohenjacobd 6y agoThanks for the feedback! We will be adding "Object Detection" next, which is identifying objects within an image and adding a bounding box around it. We are also exploring multi-label classification to classify an image as "dog" and "cat". For Image Classification, that is a good approach is predicting if an image has both a cat and dog is important.
- psahgal 6y agoThis looks really similar to Google AutoML! I wonder if there are any advantages to switching. More info on AutoML: https://cloud.google.com/automl https://cloud.google.com/automl
- mbeissinger 6y agoWe believe there are several advantages of Lobe over tools like Google AutoML :) Lobe is making the entire process of creating custom machine learning accessible, from creating your dataset to training and playing with your model, to integrating it into apps: * Easy to use - no coding, cloud configuration or machine learning experience required. * Free & private - train for free on your own computer without uploading your data to the cloud. No accounts required. * Ship anywhere - available for both Mac and Windows. Export your model and ship it on any platform you choose. AutoML requires paid accounts with high friction setup and is focused on just training a model on your data. You would have to pay and retrain your model manually every time you want to make an iteration. Lobe gives fluidity with iterating and providing feedback to your model through Play.
- psahgal 6y agoThanks for the details! It's good to know this is an option for projects that require a custom image recognition solution. I have a feeling my company's clients will appreciate being able to train their data privately on their own computer.
- polytely 6y agoWhy is this completely free? What is the catch?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- amitport 6y agoDK. Maybe it's a beta users as QA thing. After everything smooths-out, a more enterprise-ready version will appear or a price tag will be added.
- cohenjacobd 6y agoYou will always be able to train custom machine learning models on your own computer for free with Lobe
- jnsie 6y agoWondering this too. It seems to compete with some Azure AI services so my feeling is that either there's a gotcha, or it won't last long. Hopefully I'm wrong.
- cohenjacobd 6y agoNo gotcha! We're trying to fill a sweet spot for customers looking for a simple and quick way to get started with machine learning using their PCs or Macs without requiring any need for the cloud.
- mbeissinger 6y agoNo catch! We are first and foremost trying to make this technology accessible to as many people as possible, and we want to grow an ecosystem around it. Business models around that can come later.
- kondro 6y agoSame reason VS Code is free.
- palebluedot 6y agoI'm bummed it requires OS X / Windows, and does not have a Linux option. Hopefully there is a future that has a Linux version.
- sh1mmer 6y agoI wonder if they could do something with Proton to make a Linux desktop version. Since Valve made Proton for games I imagine that graphics cards support for things like CUDA might work just fine still.
- sdenton4 6y agoAll the Cuda stuff runs fine in Linux already, no wine required. (But possibly a weekend of tricksy driver setup... For which I blame nvidia, not anyone in the Linux side.)
- mdifrgechd 6y agoOne thing I thought of when I saw the demo video, that is probably on the team's radar: There would be a lot of cool ways to improve the model by giving feedback, either showing training images where the model is uncertain, or some more advanced explanations for classifications flagged as incorrect, in order to guide the user to gather the training data that can improve it. And possibly providing a summary of where it knows it works well. There are a lot of benefits there, both for improving models people are building but also to help users understand why their model is performing as it does.
- RamonGilabert 6y agoThanks for your suggestions here. We are always looking at ways to improve Lobe, and the feedback loop of how to improve your model is one of the most important ones for us.
- yawnxyz 6y agoI'm on the Label page of the app and it's asking for five images, but I don't have any... could you please give a few example sets of images, e.g. drinking/not drinking, holding up # of fingers, etc, so I don't have to create the images myself?
- cohenjacobd 6y agoHey there! I'd recommend using your webcam to quickly add images of things on your desk or in your house :) to get a feel for the magic of machine learning. Press and hold on the shutter button to take a burst of images and move the object around to get variety. Then use the Play tab to try it out and see live results from the model!
- yawnxyz 6y agothanks!! That did the trick! I can think of so many ways to use this tool!
- mbeissinger 6y agoWe also want to bundle some examples with future releases so you can have data to start, great suggestion!
- kumarm 6y agono GAN support?
- cohenjacobd 6y agoNot yet! We are starting in beta with image classification. We are working on adding more project templates in the future, and Lobe is designed upon the idea that machine learning should be made easy — no matter the problem type you are facing.
- ttul 6y agoHow long before Microsoft shuts this project down?
- cohenjacobd 6y agono concerns here :)
- z3t4 6y agoI played around with a machine learning demo and used a banana, apple and an orange for learning via webcam, and used speech synthesis to make it speak out load. After the accuracy was good I point the cam on my wife and it said: - 100% certainty a banana
- cohenjacobd 6y agohah! keep in mind the model will always make a prediction with one of the labels it is trained with for any image it is shown. You can add a "none" label and add images of things that are not banana, orange, apple, to learn the important features of a picture that make it a banana. if you are using your webcam, you can collect images of you, your office, backgrounds, etc
- rvense 6y agoDo you ever think that it's a fundamental limitation of these systems that they aren't good at knowing what they don't know? Like they always give an answer, and their failure modes are so different to ours that that it can be hard for non-experts to interpret the outputs. In some of the less harmless applications of computer vision and machine learning, sometimes it will have very severe consequences for real people that a computer says yes or no when it really doesn't have the information to say either or. Some people are afraid of what will happen to society when these systems become as accurate as humans - I am honestly more worried about what will happen if they don't.
- candiodari 6y agoHow is the failure mode different from a human’s? The human mind comes with an answer no matter the situation it’s presented with, and that may be a stupid answer. There is thankfully no (known) input that makes the human mind fail. There are known inputs for some animals though (like chickens).
- datameta 6y agoI'm curious about the chickens. Is this maybe in the same genre of how a shark becomes entranced if flipped upside down?
- SoylentOrange 6y agoThe app is beautifully done. I'm really impressed by how well it works given the knobs available. However I tried to train it to recognize some images of characters from an anime (so a little different than facial recognition), and I managed to break the model: achieving 64% error with significant number of examples per class. I think one downside is Lobe doesn't expose how potentially overconfident the model is. I would love the ability to take the existing model and test it on a new image that I can import into the app. EDIT: I would love to see the following in a future version: 1. What are the percentages associated with each image per class. I see that an image was misclassified, but did it at least include my desired class in its top 5 predicted classes? 2. Test the model on unlabeled inputs directly in the app to see how well the model might generalize. I would like to see a "Test" tab on the left once training is complete. 3. View other metrics of model goodness like F-1 score and training details like CV partitions in the app somehow. Again, this is a really cool idea :)
- vezycash 6y ago>I think one downside is Lobe doesn't expose how potentially overconfident the model is Check settings -> export -> local Api
- SoylentOrange 6y agoI mean in the app. If this is a no-code version...
- cohenjacobd 6y agoHey there! Thank you so much for the feedback, we are planning improvements like this. Here's a few tips for now: 1. You can view by "Test Images" on the Train tab (view options). So you can see how well your model is performing on your test images (a random 20% split from all of your images). 2. You can test your model on the Play tab, by dragging in new images your model has not seen, to see how well it is performing. You can also tell Lobe if it was correct or not and iteratively improve your model.
- spiderfarmer 6y agoAre the clients of today just feeding data into their own inevitable product?
- rodolphoarruda 6y ago"Available for both Mac and PC." Boo hoo, I'm running Linux on my desktop...
- plorntus 6y agoHmm seems the title of this post was changed and I cannot edit it anymore, can someone change it to 'for training' or 'to train'. In its current form it's incorrect and sounds like some sort of locomotive AI.
- mbeissinger 6y agoI don't see a way to edit the title -- is that possible for someone who isn't OP?
- cohenjacobd 6y agoodd... I emailed Hacker News to ask.
- cohenjacobd 6y agofixed! a hacker news mod changed the title, not sure why at first
- dang 6y agoA moderator changed it but added a typo, which is fixed now. Sorry!
- rizpanjwani 6y agoThis begs the question: why not ship it as an app itself targeted to normal users and let them custom fit it to their needs (unless this is already the case and I am missing something thinking it's targeted to engineers to build their apps with)?
- billba 6y agoLobe manager here. It is targeted at all sort of users. Anyone can build a model, but it might take an engineer to integrate the model into an app.
- rizpanjwani 6y agothis link here promises a react based web-app sample, but then it says "You need to get you setup so you can build, launch, and play with your app. These instructions are written for macOS, the only system you can develop iOS apps on." It then proceeds to provide instructions only for mac os. How come? Why does one need mac os to run a web application? https://github.com/lobe/web-bootstrap https://github.com/lobe/web-bootstrap
- thelazydogsback 6y agoThis seems pretty cool -- but one issue to me is that (similar to the chasm that exists in low-code app building once the magic doesn't suit you) that if I already have the skills to create a mobile app that integrates tensorflow, I probably also have the skills to train my models. It would be cool if feature-extraction (image pre-processing and first network layer(s)) could run on the front-end, and the rest of the network/search on the back-end, similar to how distributed speech recognition works. Then I could use a canned lib on the device that integrates w/the camera, and get my results via a websocket. (Of course, I could still run everything on the client still as well.)
- vffhfhf 6y agoOh wow. its awesome for noobs like me to train things. Thanks. You should release this on android and market it hard. Remember machine learning will flourish when idiots like me can train to do to mundane task.
- cohenjacobd 6y agohey there! We have Android and iOS starter apps to make it easy to export a trained model and run it on your phone! https://github.com/lobe https://github.com/lobe
- qwerty456127 6y agoOne of the things it shows on the main page says "train an apps to count reps" while a lady is doing physical exercises. This is next to ridiculous. I don't need an app or any assistance in counting my reps. I can do that myself. That's easy. What I really dream of an app for is app to tell my mistakes in technique/posture for every particular exercise. I don't even mind putting a funny costume or some motion sensors on to make its job easier.
- RamonGilabert 6y agoHey qwerty456127! We’ve actually had users build models like this in the past due to some respiratory tracking they need to get done in order to do their exercises properly, so they can’t concentrate on counting and therefore, an automated system proved useful for them. On the other comment, yes! The app you are describing sounds really interesting, and it is something that could be build using image classification, you just need the right images and camera setup, though!
- qwerty456127 6y agoI see. Thank you for explaining. The case you describe didn't come into my mind. Nevertheless I doubt counting is important. Some reps less, some reps more, I believe the feeling you always feel when you've done enough. Or you can set a timer - it's not the number that matters, it's the time you spend under the load anyway. On the other - the way you do an exercise, small details in your posture and the sequence of changes in it - that's what decides if what you do is going to make you more fit/strong, have no effect or just cause pure harm. It's extremely important (at least, in the beginning) to have somebody qualified to watch how you do it and correct you. Many people prefer to train alone though so they need such an app.
- e2e4 6y agoThere is a similar app from Google: https://teachablemachine.withgoogle.com/ https://teachablemachine.withgoogle.com/ Both apps are great!
- RamonGilabert 6y agoTeachable Machine is a good way to start! Lobe tries to give you more ways to, not only continuously work on your model by adding more images, changing the number of labels, and even re-label a bunch of your images while training a custom machine learning model in the background—but also, it gives you the ability to analyze your results in real time, and test your model while giving it feedback, so the loop to make your model better is continuously happening. I love that about Lobe.
- e2e4 6y agoThank you for explaining the differences.
- didibus 6y agoThis is really neat, and to me this is revealing of the true power of machine learning. That you can program a computer not by telling it what to do and how to do it, but what you want it to do and it'll learn to imitate and replicate the behavior even on new inputs, very similar to how you teach people tasks.
- RamonGilabert 6y agoThat’s exactly the whole thesis behind Lobe, back to the conception phase of the project, this was the main principle we tried to infuse in our tool—how can we make the process of building software more humane—and machine learning is one of the tools to achieve that—with Lobe, we wanted to solve the aspect of building the machine learning, as that wasn’t humane either.
- mchusma 6y agoI didn't see system requirements and limitations. Gpu required? Normally for training ML hardware matters, so odd this doesn't talk about that at all.
- RamonGilabert 6y agoHey! You can check the recommended specs in the Tips section of Lobe Help: https://docs.lobe.ai/docs/tips/tips https://docs.lobe.ai/docs/tips/tips
- enlightens 6y agoI remember a previous version from about 2 years ago... I think Lobe.ai was web-based, at the time? And you could drag and drop various blocks around to do image recognition and analysis? I probably have some of the details wrong but the demos were very impressive. While I never got approved for that beta (probably rightly so, I'm just some random person with no actual connection to ML or AI), I was excited to see what their work led to. Congrats on releasing this latest iteration and acquisition!
- RamonGilabert 6y agoThank you! And you are right, the general idea of Lobe 1.0 is in your message! For Lobe 2.0 we switched a bit as you can see, and the good news is, you can go and download the app at lobe.ai without the need to wait any longer! The reasoning behind the change and the why we abstracted some of those details you are mentioning was to actually make it even more accessible for people to be able to build machine learning models. We think that this is a paradigm that should be used by everyone, and that’s why stripping down the onion of complexity was really important for us when we started with this project.
- cohenjacobd 6y agoThank you so much! We deeply explored how to make it easy for anyone to get started with machine learning. We looked at where people were spending the most time getting started and iterating on creating a custom machine learning model. This is why we expanded Lobe to focus on 3 fundamental steps: 1. Collecting & labeling images 2. Training your model and evaluating the results 3. Playing with your model and seeing how well its performing
- bryanrasmussen 6y agoWhy does this exist? I don't mean what do you use it for, the many uses are obvious, but why has a company (Microsoft) made it and released it for free. Reading the license I assume it may change at some future version to require money to use it, and that a new version will install and then say please pay us to continue using? Or probably just this product is no longer available? Note these are not things I am thinking will happen but rather my theoretical assumptions to try to answer the question of why has Microsoft, a for profit company, made this closed source, free tool that I think might be pretty useful for a lot of people.
- mbeissinger 6y agoOur driving force is to make this technology as accessible as possible to as many people as possible. We believe that machine learning will be a huge new way that people interact with computers going forward to better their lives. Lobe will always let you train custom machine learning for free on your computer. We hope this becomes a vibrant ecosystem, and the business model around the edges can come later for value-add services.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago>Lobe will always let you train custom machine learning for free on your computer. ah ok, fine, just the legalese was making me wonder. And of course that we are in a capitalist system so not sure I follow the value for Microsoft in this scenario, but I guess you find making machine learning more available to apps somehow drives value. So thanks for what looks like a pretty nice tool.
- bryanrasmussen 6y agofor example in the license where it says: You agree to receive these automatic updates without any additional notice. Updates may not include or support all existing software features, services, or peripheral devices. This is the part that causes me to assume it will stop working at some point in the future? And when would that be: a) Term. The term of this agreement will continue until the commercial release of the software. We also may not release a commercial version. But honestly unsure if I am just paranoid. Or even if paranoia is the right term for my feeling about it, it's something Microsoft is letting me use and at some point it won't be usable anymore - such is life - might be the more reasonable response to it.
- jkw 6y agoWhat type of ML model is it training on? Is there a base pre-train image model it's fine-tuning on top of?
- diskzero 6y agoI see MobileNet and ResNet embedded as application resources. Because of the speed of the training, I suspect they are doing feature transfer learning. While the UI is quite nice (thanks to Mike Matas, I am sure), I don't see a strong advantage to using this on MacOs, when CreateML is available. CreateML doesn't have the simple interface of Lobe, but the UI is quite accessible and gives you access to additional classifies, like sound, text and tabular data. If you need ever more power, you can use TuriCreate if you want to stay in the Apple ecosystem. The simplicity of the UI is a feature, but also a disadvantage when you start having more than a handful of labels and training images. I totally see how Lobe could be a nice intro into the world of labelling and classification.
- desmap 6y ago> I suspect they are doing feature transfer learning Would you mind to elaborate on this?
- diskzero 6y agoThe model training time using Lobe is comparable to similar transfer learning tasks using other machine learning frameworks. I did a comparison between Lobe and Turi Create using transfer learning with ResNet and the time were similar. Training using a complete convnet would take much long, unless the Lobe team has made some serious advances.
- seltzered_ 6y agoLobe was a startup involving folks like Mike Matas that was acquired by Microsoft in 2018: https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2018/09/13/microsoft-acquires-lobe-to-help-bring-ai-development-capability-to-everyone/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2018/09/13/microsoft-acquir...
- m0zg 6y agoNot open source? GTFO, Microsoft.
- dartharva 6y agoSo no one's going to talk about how the both the app and its website follow MacOS's design aesthetics despite being from Microsoft?
- benlumen 6y agoI realise this is a Microsoft one, but roughly how many of these are there now? And are they all just productised frontends for the Python libraries like I think they are?
- talolard 6y agoThe impressive part is the ux more than the particular choice of algorithms and frameworks. As you alluded, those are fairly commodity but executing so that an end user can understand and be engaged enough to get where they want is a big accomplishment.
- robalicious 6y agoWorks nicely https://photos.app.goo.gl/GjXgk7fgQ8c54pB19 https://photos.app.goo.gl/GjXgk7fgQ8c54pB19