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> isn't it better to do what people would expect other cars to do? You--a human driver--have no idea what the other cars will do either. Some people run yellow

> isn't it better to do what people would expect other cars to do? You--a human driver--have no idea what the other cars will do either. Some people run yellows, some people don't. The only reasonable thing to assume the other car to do is follow the law, but be prepared for the unexpected. Unless Waymo cars are doing something unnatural like braking significantly harder or faster than a human would, the Waymo car is not at fault for being rear-ended. Once we pass ethical muster (meaning don't ship knowingly buggy code, don't sell cars you expect to crash a lot, etc), I have a hard time seeing what the moral issues are here.

toast0 6y ago
I haven't gone through this article, but I've read several incident reports from testing in Mountain View and seen several test vehicles driving around in that area. Waymo cars are often unnaturally cautious, which is usually a factor when they get rear-ended. Ex: vehicle behind expected waymo car to turn left when there was an opening large enough for it, but it didn't. These are probably worse because there's a safety driver who is probably actively engaged. If you can see the (apparent) driver looks actively engaged, you'll expect them to see the gap, and go for it. If the car had no one in the driver seat (or they were looking at screens/passengers), you might be more cautious. Added: of course, that doesn't mean it's waymo's responsibility; this type of collision occurs with human drivers too, and it's the driver to the rear's fault, but either driver could have avoided the error: the front driver by going when it was safe to do so, as expected; and the rear driver by waiting to confirm the front driver actually went. Sometimes it's tricky because the front driver releases the brakes and then reapplies them; the rear driver saw the brake lights turn off and moves forward while watching oncoming traffic, but doesn't see the brakes were reapplied. Added later: I read the verge article. It sounds like Waymo is working on not getting rear-ended, so they acknowledge there are things they can do (and that, in many cases, the safety driver was able to do).
- deleted 6y ago
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- bcrosby95 6y ago
  I'm very cautious when making left turns - way more than the average driver. If I'm not I'm liable to screw up in either direction and no one wants that. No one has managed to rear end me, but I obviously don't have 6.5 million miles driven. And even if they did, I would trade a high speed t-bone for a low speed fender bender any day of the week.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    I've been told by researchers that unprotected lefts are one of the hardest problems for self-driving. They're so situationally dependent and can rely on social signaling. If traffics is light, it's pretty easy of course. But get into congested areas and you pretty much have to be at least somewhat aggressive and even take things like Pittsburgh lefts. And if you're not at least somewhat aggressive, cars behind you can start honking horns and taking dangerous actions because, from their perspective, you're blocking the road. (No criticism intended; you have to do what feels comfortable for you.But it's probably one of the routine driving tasks that takes the most judgement.)
    - ponker 6y ago
      I remember once I had a protected left but saw the car coming (hundreds of feet out) and didn't like the look on his face (which was barely visible), like he was too into his music. I didn't take the left and the guy flew through the red light and slammed his brakes halfway through. I think back to that situation when I think of AV.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - kibwen 6y ago
      In case people aren't aware of what a Pittsburgh left is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_left https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_left
      - 6y ago
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> You--a human driver--have no idea what the other cars will do either. Some people run yellows, some people don't. But one of them may be more likely, and therefore result in more collisions if you assume it isn't. In addition to that, many yellow lights are timed too short. That makes it possible to be far enough from the light that you won't make it through the intersection before it turns red, but still close enough that stopping before the intersection would require braking rapidly enough to yield a significant probability of being rear-ended. The problem there is the light timing, but the car can't fix that and still has to make a choice.
benhurmarcel 6y ago
> the Waymo car is not at fault for being rear-ended That's right, but not the point. They are optimizing for not being at fault, instead of optimizing for not getting into an accident.

toast0 6y ago

I haven't gone through this article, but I've read several incident reports from testing in Mountain View and seen several test vehicles driving around in that area. Waymo cars are often unnaturally cautious, which is usually a factor when they get rear-ended. Ex: vehicle behind expected waymo car to turn left when there was an opening large enough for it, but it didn't. These are probably worse because there's a safety driver who is probably actively engaged. If you can see the (apparent) driver looks actively engaged, you'll expect them to see the gap, and go for it. If the car had no one in the driver seat (or they were looking at screens/passengers), you might be more cautious. Added: of course, that doesn't mean it's waymo's responsibility; this type of collision occurs with human drivers too, and it's the driver to the rear's fault, but either driver could have avoided the error: the front driver by going when it was safe to do so, as expected; and the rear driver by waiting to confirm the front driver actually went. Sometimes it's tricky because the front driver releases the brakes and then reapplies them; the rear driver saw the brake lights turn off and moves forward while watching oncoming traffic, but doesn't see the brakes were reapplied. Added later: I read the verge article. It sounds like Waymo is working on not getting rear-ended, so they acknowledge there are things they can do (and that, in many cases, the safety driver was able to do).

deleted 6y ago
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bcrosby95 6y ago
I'm very cautious when making left turns - way more than the average driver. If I'm not I'm liable to screw up in either direction and no one wants that. No one has managed to rear end me, but I obviously don't have 6.5 million miles driven. And even if they did, I would trade a high speed t-bone for a low speed fender bender any day of the week.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I've been told by researchers that unprotected lefts are one of the hardest problems for self-driving. They're so situationally dependent and can rely on social signaling. If traffics is light, it's pretty easy of course. But get into congested areas and you pretty much have to be at least somewhat aggressive and even take things like Pittsburgh lefts. And if you're not at least somewhat aggressive, cars behind you can start honking horns and taking dangerous actions because, from their perspective, you're blocking the road. (No criticism intended; you have to do what feels comfortable for you.But it's probably one of the routine driving tasks that takes the most judgement.)
  - ponker 6y ago
    I remember once I had a protected left but saw the car coming (hundreds of feet out) and didn't like the look on his face (which was barely visible), like he was too into his music. I didn't take the left and the guy flew through the red light and slammed his brakes halfway through. I think back to that situation when I think of AV.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - kibwen 6y ago
    In case people aren't aware of what a Pittsburgh left is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_left https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_left
    - 6y ago

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

> You--a human driver--have no idea what the other cars will do either. Some people run yellows, some people don't. But one of them may be more likely, and therefore result in more collisions if you assume it isn't. In addition to that, many yellow lights are timed too short. That makes it possible to be far enough from the light that you won't make it through the intersection before it turns red, but still close enough that stopping before the intersection would require braking rapidly enough to yield a significant probability of being rear-ended. The problem there is the light timing, but the car can't fix that and still has to make a choice.

benhurmarcel 6y ago

> the Waymo car is not at fault for being rear-ended That's right, but not the point. They are optimizing for not being at fault, instead of optimizing for not getting into an accident.