5 ms·

I read the entire draft and I’m going to disagree with you. Rather than write a lengthy diatribe, I’ll start with my main point. This is all very neat and tidy

by hluska 6y ago

I read the entire draft and I’m going to disagree with you. Rather than write a lengthy diatribe, I’ll start with my main point. This is all very neat and tidy and while it may all be true, we live in a political climate where foreign governments interfere in elections by spreading disinformation. In that case, an editor is absolutely correct to push back, make suggestions and ensure their otherwise respectable publication is not used as a tool to spread more disinformation the week before an election.

whimsicalism 6y ago
> we live in a political climate where foreign governments interfere in elections by spreading disinformation. In that case, an editor is absolutely correct to push back This is paternalistic to the extreme. Do we get to vote on whether we want such a society or is it just imposed by editorial fiat? > spread more disinformation the week before an election. You read the draft. Could you point out the explicit falsehoods to me? Or are you saying we should stop the spread of inconvenient opinion pieces?
- hluska 6y ago
  I vaguely understand the paternalistic side of your argument, but if you want to abandon editorial rigour, we have something already built for that. It’s called social media. If social media doesn’t turn your crank, start your own publication and establish your own editorial fiat. HOWEVER, there’s a problem - if your editing sucks, you won’t attract enough readers to maintain high standards. That’s kind of the shit part of the free market - you can’t just go push a substandard product and scream about “my freedom”. Ultimately, this draft needed some work and if you go through this thread, you can read some of the Intercept’s own comments. Personally, I found the section about possible disinformation to need more meat. The connection between the Vice President and the company is too tenuous. The article needs to cover WHY experts think it is disinformation, even just to strengthen the claim that it isn’t. It doesn’t much matter what you want to read, but an editor still had to find balance and appropriate context. Otherwise, publications suck...
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > I vaguely understand the paternalistic side of your argument, but if you want to abandon editorial rigour, we have something already built for that. It’s called social media. Without getting into the irony of the fact that the article we're discussing was blocked on social media, I want to make clear: I don't want to abandon editorial rigor. But I do think that electioneering concerns should be irrelevant to the context of whether you present information in the public interest. Just as reporting on Trump's tax returns or the Podesta emails were in the public interest, so too are the Hunter Biden emails. There has not been a historical problem of major publications publishing Russian falsehoods. The "fake news" epidemic is mostly quickly stood up sites propagating on Facebook. Nor did I see any evidence that Glenn was connected to a Russian disinformation effort. If that were to change (say, if he were found to be receiving payments from the Russian government), then I would support removing him as a writer outright. > an editor still had to find balance and appropriate context. Agreed. My claim here is that the editorial staff of The Intercept failed at this goal and their suggestions were not balanced.
    - hluska 6y ago
      I have experience in publishing and have edited some very complicated pieces in my time so I imagine that I look at this situation (and the draft of the Greenwald article) through a different lens. On the subject of the Hunter Biden emails, there are a lot of problems with reporting on them. The first is that when you look at the full spectrum of Giuliani’s involvement, the laptop genesis story is a little weird. The second is that copies of the hard drive have not been widely disseminated to news rooms. The laptop genesis story is relevant and the Greenwald article needed to devote more analysis just because of how weird it is. And as for the hard drives, journalists have their own sets of egos and biases. Both of those points are relevant if you want to question why the media isn’t reporting on them. The laptop genesis story is weird enough to call for fact checking and verification but the hard drives aren’t available. Sadly that makes for weak articles and removes any exclusive coverage motivation to cover the emails. Where isn’t that balanced?
raxxorrax 6y ago
This is voluntary ignorance and a cheap excuse. Which foreign intervention? The Russians again?
- hluska 6y ago
  The draft is weak. It completely avoids explaining why several experts conclude it’s disinformation. Instead, it uses a very complicated set of coincidences with only one actual fact - Biden had something to do with getting one prosecutor replaced. That’s flimsy journalism. Expecting better out of a journalist is far from voluntary ignorance.
  - vokep 6y ago
    Is there anywhere I can find a clear explanation of expert's reasoning to conclude it's disinformation? It seems like the information is really up in the air, it will take time to determine what conclusions from it are legitimate and false. The information itself is quite clearly real, at least, I haven't seen any specific piece of information in regards to this claimed as false, just the whole subject referred to as "disinformation".
    - monetus 6y ago
      I heard sam seder break what he knew down pretty well a few days ago but I am having trouble finding the clip.
    - hluska 6y ago
      Here is a letter signed by 50 former high ranking intelligence officials - it's easy to absorb and if you're interested, it will give you plenty of threads to Google. https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000175-4393-d7aa-af77-579f9b330000 https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000175-4393-d7aa-af77-579f9...
dhimes 6y ago
So, Hunter was possibly selling access to Joe, for the possibility of influence? If so, did it work? Hunter is a troubled man (remember Billy Carter?). I only care about what Joe did, if any of this is true.
- hluska 6y ago
  That’s where I think this article gets weak. It seems to hinge on “nobody else is reporting it so it must be true.” The connection between the Vice President and the company isn’t strong enough. And excluding the possibility this is disinformation just makes the connection that much worse. I feel like I’m missing about 500 words. If Greenwald would tighten his prose and strengthen the persuasion, this article could rule.
  - deeeeplearning 6y ago
    >The connection between the Vice President and the company isn’t strong enough. And excluding the possibility this is disinformation just makes the connection that much worse. >If Greenwald would tighten his prose and strengthen the persuasion, this article could rule. Holy non sequitur Batman!
    - hluska 6y ago
      Come on friend, if you're going to pick and choose from my words, please be true to my original point. I feel that this article is missing about 500 words of facts, but that length could be trimmed down by removing some extraneous words. I'm more guilty of using extra words than anyone so I'm not qualified to judge, but I am qualified to recognize it when I see it. Crap, I used to publish a magazine - I have a little more experience in this area than the mean.
monocasa 6y ago
We've lived in a world where foreign governments have interfered in elections by spreading disinformation for literally as long as there's been elections. That doesn't give the media an excuse to ignore corruption across half of the aisle.
- hluska 6y ago
  You’re correct but journalists need to do better. This article isn’t strong enough for publication, the editor made reasonable suggestions and frankly, it sounds like a tantrum.
  - meowface 6y ago
    [removed]
    - hluska 6y ago
      Thanks for engaging with me friend - I promise to reply but this will take a bit of time. Unfortunately, I have to step out. I promise to write a proper reply and don’t want you to take my silence as a sign of disrespect. It’s been fun engaging with you and I appreciate your brain - I’ll edit this comment when I get back. Seriously thanks, this has been a lot of fun!! :) Edit - Hey friends, meowface genuinely doesn’t deserve those downvoted. They are smart - I don’t agree with them, but they’ve made some strong points in excellent ways.
      - meowface 6y ago
        Everyone on every side is being downvoted (and then upvoted, and then downvoted, and then upvoted, and then downvoted some more...), it seems. I don't mind at all; it comes with the territory. Anyone entering into a fray like this knows what to expect. If someone strongly disagrees with me, I actually think they probably should downvote me.
        hluska 6y ago
meowface 6y ago
An editor is absolutely right to push back on a writer potentially publishing disinformation about a candidate before an election, but I disagree that this contains any disinformation or acceptance of disinformation. It covers a lot of ground, but the media censorship parts seem incontrovertible, and the parts specifically critical of Biden seem pretty balanced to me. He seems to hedge a lot of what he says and provides many perspectives and sources. We should be very careful about disinformation, but another form of information warfare and "active measures" which I'm sure Russian intelligence is and has been deploying is the spread of skepticism of true information and belief that any or all information could be disinformation. Division, discord, fear, uncertainty, and doubt are the goals; not just falsehoods. All of these erode a sense of shared reality. Just as any claims about a political figure need support, so do claims of disinformation. So, I think it's diatribe time. Could you quote the parts of the article (with full context) that seem like disinformation?
- hluska 6y ago
  You know, we might not agree on this but I like you and think you’re very cool. :) I’ll write you the reply you deserve but have to step out. Again though friend, you’re a good person and I respect your mind. Edit - Seriously friend, I’m having a rough day in my personal life. I feel really lucky that I found you to engage with and get my mind off of things. You’re cool. Thanks for being cool. I’ll pay you back one day for this.
  - meowface 6y ago
    For the record, I read the email exchange Greenwald published and I am a little more sympathetic to the editors now. I don't totally agree with their criticisms, but I think Greenwald unnecessarily escalated into ad hominems before even giving them a chance to reply, and I think there was a valid discussion to be had there before there was no choice but to throw in the towel. He should've just kept the part of the email with the editor comments vs. article comparisons and left out the rest. I understand why he felt like he was being pressured, though. I still don't think there's anything like blind acceptance of disinformation in the article, but he could've hedged certain parts a bit more. Also, I kind of regret some of my earlier comments. I still think the way the media and Twitter handled this is absolutely ridiculous, and I really don't think there's a disinformation aspect to this article (bias and dis/misinformation are very different), but I kind of jumped to the conclusion about the rigor of the article after only reading about half of it (mostly the parts about the media). I think the truth about the article's rigor probably lies in the middle between your and my initial opinions of it, and similarly I think proper rigor kind of lies between Greenwald's and the editor's opinions. I prefer Taibbi's reporting on it (and Taibbi's reporting in general). And to be clear, as I mentioned in my other comments, I've never seen very good evidence of corruption on Joe's part; my concern is pretty much just with the emails and the media's handling of them. edit: Actually, I just went ahead and removed my very initial comment and another one. I was kind of shooting from the hip, though I definitely still stand by the parts about the media, and probably most of my other comments so far. But I might change my mind tomorrow about some of the other comments, and this definitely isn't the ideal platform for an extremely lengthy and careful debate.
deeeeplearning 6y ago
This is tabloid level trash. No different than the email-gate nothingburger that dogged Hillary or made up the Birtherism claims against Obama. Greenwald should be ashamed.
BeijingBiden 6y ago
although that was not the standard/the protocol used to protect President Trump when his tax forms were illegally-obtained and disseminated on this same outlets??

by hluska 6y ago

whimsicalism 6y ago

> we live in a political climate where foreign governments interfere in elections by spreading disinformation. In that case, an editor is absolutely correct to push back This is paternalistic to the extreme. Do we get to vote on whether we want such a society or is it just imposed by editorial fiat? > spread more disinformation the week before an election. You read the draft. Could you point out the explicit falsehoods to me? Or are you saying we should stop the spread of inconvenient opinion pieces?

hluska 6y ago
I vaguely understand the paternalistic side of your argument, but if you want to abandon editorial rigour, we have something already built for that. It’s called social media. If social media doesn’t turn your crank, start your own publication and establish your own editorial fiat. HOWEVER, there’s a problem - if your editing sucks, you won’t attract enough readers to maintain high standards. That’s kind of the shit part of the free market - you can’t just go push a substandard product and scream about “my freedom”. Ultimately, this draft needed some work and if you go through this thread, you can read some of the Intercept’s own comments. Personally, I found the section about possible disinformation to need more meat. The connection between the Vice President and the company is too tenuous. The article needs to cover WHY experts think it is disinformation, even just to strengthen the claim that it isn’t. It doesn’t much matter what you want to read, but an editor still had to find balance and appropriate context. Otherwise, publications suck...
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > I vaguely understand the paternalistic side of your argument, but if you want to abandon editorial rigour, we have something already built for that. It’s called social media. Without getting into the irony of the fact that the article we're discussing was blocked on social media, I want to make clear: I don't want to abandon editorial rigor. But I do think that electioneering concerns should be irrelevant to the context of whether you present information in the public interest. Just as reporting on Trump's tax returns or the Podesta emails were in the public interest, so too are the Hunter Biden emails. There has not been a historical problem of major publications publishing Russian falsehoods. The "fake news" epidemic is mostly quickly stood up sites propagating on Facebook. Nor did I see any evidence that Glenn was connected to a Russian disinformation effort. If that were to change (say, if he were found to be receiving payments from the Russian government), then I would support removing him as a writer outright. > an editor still had to find balance and appropriate context. Agreed. My claim here is that the editorial staff of The Intercept failed at this goal and their suggestions were not balanced.
  - hluska 6y ago
    I have experience in publishing and have edited some very complicated pieces in my time so I imagine that I look at this situation (and the draft of the Greenwald article) through a different lens. On the subject of the Hunter Biden emails, there are a lot of problems with reporting on them. The first is that when you look at the full spectrum of Giuliani’s involvement, the laptop genesis story is a little weird. The second is that copies of the hard drive have not been widely disseminated to news rooms. The laptop genesis story is relevant and the Greenwald article needed to devote more analysis just because of how weird it is. And as for the hard drives, journalists have their own sets of egos and biases. Both of those points are relevant if you want to question why the media isn’t reporting on them. The laptop genesis story is weird enough to call for fact checking and verification but the hard drives aren’t available. Sadly that makes for weak articles and removes any exclusive coverage motivation to cover the emails. Where isn’t that balanced?

raxxorrax 6y ago

This is voluntary ignorance and a cheap excuse. Which foreign intervention? The Russians again?

hluska 6y ago
The draft is weak. It completely avoids explaining why several experts conclude it’s disinformation. Instead, it uses a very complicated set of coincidences with only one actual fact - Biden had something to do with getting one prosecutor replaced. That’s flimsy journalism. Expecting better out of a journalist is far from voluntary ignorance.
- vokep 6y ago
  Is there anywhere I can find a clear explanation of expert's reasoning to conclude it's disinformation? It seems like the information is really up in the air, it will take time to determine what conclusions from it are legitimate and false. The information itself is quite clearly real, at least, I haven't seen any specific piece of information in regards to this claimed as false, just the whole subject referred to as "disinformation".
  - monetus 6y ago
    I heard sam seder break what he knew down pretty well a few days ago but I am having trouble finding the clip.
  - hluska 6y ago
    Here is a letter signed by 50 former high ranking intelligence officials - it's easy to absorb and if you're interested, it will give you plenty of threads to Google. https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000175-4393-d7aa-af77-579f9b330000 https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000175-4393-d7aa-af77-579f9...

dhimes 6y ago

So, Hunter was possibly selling access to Joe, for the possibility of influence? If so, did it work? Hunter is a troubled man (remember Billy Carter?). I only care about what Joe did, if any of this is true.

hluska 6y ago
That’s where I think this article gets weak. It seems to hinge on “nobody else is reporting it so it must be true.” The connection between the Vice President and the company isn’t strong enough. And excluding the possibility this is disinformation just makes the connection that much worse. I feel like I’m missing about 500 words. If Greenwald would tighten his prose and strengthen the persuasion, this article could rule.
- deeeeplearning 6y ago
  >The connection between the Vice President and the company isn’t strong enough. And excluding the possibility this is disinformation just makes the connection that much worse. >If Greenwald would tighten his prose and strengthen the persuasion, this article could rule. Holy non sequitur Batman!
  - hluska 6y ago
    Come on friend, if you're going to pick and choose from my words, please be true to my original point. I feel that this article is missing about 500 words of facts, but that length could be trimmed down by removing some extraneous words. I'm more guilty of using extra words than anyone so I'm not qualified to judge, but I am qualified to recognize it when I see it. Crap, I used to publish a magazine - I have a little more experience in this area than the mean.

monocasa 6y ago

We've lived in a world where foreign governments have interfered in elections by spreading disinformation for literally as long as there's been elections. That doesn't give the media an excuse to ignore corruption across half of the aisle.

hluska 6y ago
You’re correct but journalists need to do better. This article isn’t strong enough for publication, the editor made reasonable suggestions and frankly, it sounds like a tantrum.
- meowface 6y ago
  [removed]
  - hluska 6y ago
    Thanks for engaging with me friend - I promise to reply but this will take a bit of time. Unfortunately, I have to step out. I promise to write a proper reply and don’t want you to take my silence as a sign of disrespect. It’s been fun engaging with you and I appreciate your brain - I’ll edit this comment when I get back. Seriously thanks, this has been a lot of fun!! :) Edit - Hey friends, meowface genuinely doesn’t deserve those downvoted. They are smart - I don’t agree with them, but they’ve made some strong points in excellent ways.
    - meowface 6y ago
      Everyone on every side is being downvoted (and then upvoted, and then downvoted, and then upvoted, and then downvoted some more...), it seems. I don't mind at all; it comes with the territory. Anyone entering into a fray like this knows what to expect. If someone strongly disagrees with me, I actually think they probably should downvote me.
      - hluska 6y ago

meowface 6y ago

An editor is absolutely right to push back on a writer potentially publishing disinformation about a candidate before an election, but I disagree that this contains any disinformation or acceptance of disinformation. It covers a lot of ground, but the media censorship parts seem incontrovertible, and the parts specifically critical of Biden seem pretty balanced to me. He seems to hedge a lot of what he says and provides many perspectives and sources. We should be very careful about disinformation, but another form of information warfare and "active measures" which I'm sure Russian intelligence is and has been deploying is the spread of skepticism of true information and belief that any or all information could be disinformation. Division, discord, fear, uncertainty, and doubt are the goals; not just falsehoods. All of these erode a sense of shared reality. Just as any claims about a political figure need support, so do claims of disinformation. So, I think it's diatribe time. Could you quote the parts of the article (with full context) that seem like disinformation?

hluska 6y ago
You know, we might not agree on this but I like you and think you’re very cool. :) I’ll write you the reply you deserve but have to step out. Again though friend, you’re a good person and I respect your mind. Edit - Seriously friend, I’m having a rough day in my personal life. I feel really lucky that I found you to engage with and get my mind off of things. You’re cool. Thanks for being cool. I’ll pay you back one day for this.
- meowface 6y ago
  For the record, I read the email exchange Greenwald published and I am a little more sympathetic to the editors now. I don't totally agree with their criticisms, but I think Greenwald unnecessarily escalated into ad hominems before even giving them a chance to reply, and I think there was a valid discussion to be had there before there was no choice but to throw in the towel. He should've just kept the part of the email with the editor comments vs. article comparisons and left out the rest. I understand why he felt like he was being pressured, though. I still don't think there's anything like blind acceptance of disinformation in the article, but he could've hedged certain parts a bit more. Also, I kind of regret some of my earlier comments. I still think the way the media and Twitter handled this is absolutely ridiculous, and I really don't think there's a disinformation aspect to this article (bias and dis/misinformation are very different), but I kind of jumped to the conclusion about the rigor of the article after only reading about half of it (mostly the parts about the media). I think the truth about the article's rigor probably lies in the middle between your and my initial opinions of it, and similarly I think proper rigor kind of lies between Greenwald's and the editor's opinions. I prefer Taibbi's reporting on it (and Taibbi's reporting in general). And to be clear, as I mentioned in my other comments, I've never seen very good evidence of corruption on Joe's part; my concern is pretty much just with the emails and the media's handling of them. edit: Actually, I just went ahead and removed my very initial comment and another one. I was kind of shooting from the hip, though I definitely still stand by the parts about the media, and probably most of my other comments so far. But I might change my mind tomorrow about some of the other comments, and this definitely isn't the ideal platform for an extremely lengthy and careful debate.

deeeeplearning 6y ago

This is tabloid level trash. No different than the email-gate nothingburger that dogged Hillary or made up the Birtherism claims against Obama. Greenwald should be ashamed.

BeijingBiden 6y ago

although that was not the standard/the protocol used to protect President Trump when his tax forms were illegally-obtained and disseminated on this same outlets??