7 ms·

The xenophobia is a useful tool to distract from the real problem: investors.

cascom 6y ago
I think I’m the Vancouver case foreign buyer is highly correlated with money launderer (capital control kind rather than illicit gains)
- dahdum 6y ago
  Who has determined they are evading vs avoiding capital controls? Canada doesn't have the laws they are presumed to be breaking.
  - novok 6y ago
    They're avoiding the capital controls of China, because China has a history of executing it's wealthy on whim as the political weather changes.
tomrod 6y ago
There are several reasons local communities may wish to restrict home purchases by outsiders. Xenophobia is one, but likely not a large contributor. Concerns over unsustainable realty prices may be another, or simply wishing to preserve a locked down community. I'm making no judgment calls here, just pointing out that an easy, pat answer is not sufficient.
- nine_k 6y ago
  > wishing to preserve a locked down community How do you differentiate it from xenophobia?
  - fnord123 6y ago
    I'm just confused. I thought they're the same thing.
    - tomrod 6y ago
      One is proactive assessment by a community, the other is blind bigotry against outsiders. The inclusion of bigotry as a deciding component is the key, IMHO.
      - fnord123 6y ago
        One wants to proactively stop outsiders from joining their community. The other stops outsiders from joining their community using bigotry? Can you see why I'm confused?
        tomrod 6y ago
        No. I may be seeing an argument of semantic similarity, but the inclusion of bigotry is the defining factor of xenophobia. Closing down a community can be due to other drivers beyond fear of outsiders.
  - MisterTea 6y ago
    Depends on the community culture and what they perceive as outsider behaviour. e.g. A protestant might not be welcomed in a catholic neighborhood.
    - nine_k 6y ago
      But isn't "outgroup members are not welcome" the definition of (mild) xenophobia? Indeed, religious disagreements are a major source of it.
- jbay808 6y ago
  In Vancouver's case, I don't think there's a strong desire to maintain a locked down community -- at least, not among the voices who complain about run-away real estate prices. What there are complaints about are foreign investors who bid up property prices but don't move to the city, at least not before retirement age. This causes a huge disconnect between the price of land in an area, and the earning potential in that area. For people who hope to own land but don't already, it's always out of reach, because they aren't competing with their peers, and the wealthy pockets that are buying homes aren't customers of other local businesses. It's not quite the same as a cluster of unicorns driving up tech salaries to the point where teachers and nurses can't compete on the market. There are no unicorns based in Vancouver. It's hard to identify any career path, even doctor, rockstar engineer, or lawyer, that a high school graduate today could expect to follow while working in this city and be on track for home ownership when time comes to start a family. Assuming that the trend continues, that is. And if it corrects, then it's a question of who was unlucky enough to catch the knife -- because any young locals in the ownership market are going to be highly leveraged, there's no other way. That might read like xenophobia, but actual immigrants who intend to live, work, and raise families here are generally warmly welcomed and appreciated no matter where they come from. There are some people who get their signals crossed but it's a small minority.
  - novok 6y ago
    Also if your an immigrant who is resident in Canada, your not subject to these taxes! It's a 'you gotta live here' tax.
    - jbay808 6y ago
      Not subject to the foreign buyer tax, yes; it's unclear that these taxes have actually solved the above issue though. For money laundering it's an acceptable cost of doing business; for others there are ways around it (hence the 20-year-old undergrads prepared to pay $1.4 million in cash that another commenter mentioned).
dimitrios1 6y ago
Placing the interests of your homeland and neighbors first over foreigners is not xenophobia.
- R0b0t1 6y ago
  Comment is getting downvotes but agree. If you do not band together with like-minded individuals for your common good you will be outcompeted by other people who do.
  - epistasis 6y ago
    Right, and the people that banded together to profit from this are the existing homeowners and landlords in Vancouver. The foreign investors are tiny in both numbers and political power compared to Vancouver landowners as a whole, and it really was existing landowners who profited, while flying a "preserve our great culture" flag by trying to not let new buildings be built. The investors are the like-minded people who banded together to raise property values and benefit from it directly, while also exerting their will to keep new people out, or at least keep out everyone except the very wealthiest. Calling this behavior "protective" of the city is tantamount to saying that the city is only for the investors.
    - beambot 6y ago
      > The foreign investors are tiny in both numbers and political power The exact topic of this article: Small quantities of investors with different economic incentives can result in big effects. > The investors are the like-minded people who banded together I rather doubt that it was a concerted effort to band together. It's more akin to "curse of the commons": Each individual actor acting in their best interest results in emergent behavior. The solution being pursued is to change the rules to dissuade certain behaviors that negatively impact the populace as a whole.
      - epistasis 6y ago
        The effects of those small number of extra investors isn't huge however. In London it was 20% of the rise, but not most of it. It does fan flames, but there's got to be a spark to be fanned.
mistermann 6y ago
The term "xenophobia" is also a useful tool that is used by the government, the media, and individuals on social media to suppress the free discussion of very important matters. The Government of Canada has the ability to published (anonymized) data (real estate sales correlated to the buyers historic income taxes/wealth, etc) that could eliminate most of the opaqueness of what is really going on in Canadian housing markets, but they do not, despite vowing to "get to the bottom of" the situation. The media could point out that the Canadian Government has this ability but does not do it, but they do not, despite claiming to be trustworthy, unbiased reporters of the affairs that are important to the public. As is often the case, what is actually true is unjustly (and "democratically") hidden from view of the public, coverage is provided (intentionally or not) by the media, and the end result is that the populace is split into various camps who then fight among themselves. Is this situation the actual "will of the people", as we are endlessly told is what Democracy (and nothing else) delivers? I believe there is a fairly substantial amount of evidence that it is not what people want, although that sort of topic seems a bit socially taboo, so all one can do is speculate.
option 6y ago
there are plenty of sad places in this world who got rid of investors ...
mturmon 6y ago
One way to think about this is that cash is plentiful in China, but a strong social/legal system that ensures long-term, low-risk investments is "plentiful" in Canada or the US. In this sense, these foreign investors are taking advantage of a functional social/legal system that lowers risk, but in the cases documented nearby, they aren't giving back to ensure the longevity of the system. Indeed, their remotely-executed purchases increase its instability.
imtringued 6y ago
Investors bring in fresh money. The real "mystery" is why people aren't building more housing to take advantage of the demand. When you are starting a company the hardest problem by far is finding people who buy your products. In real estate it's exactly the opposite.

I think I’m the Vancouver case foreign buyer is highly correlated with money launderer (capital control kind rather than illicit gains)

dahdum 6y ago
Who has determined they are evading vs avoiding capital controls? Canada doesn't have the laws they are presumed to be breaking.
- novok 6y ago
  They're avoiding the capital controls of China, because China has a history of executing it's wealthy on whim as the political weather changes.

tomrod 6y ago

There are several reasons local communities may wish to restrict home purchases by outsiders. Xenophobia is one, but likely not a large contributor. Concerns over unsustainable realty prices may be another, or simply wishing to preserve a locked down community. I'm making no judgment calls here, just pointing out that an easy, pat answer is not sufficient.

nine_k 6y ago
> wishing to preserve a locked down community How do you differentiate it from xenophobia?
- fnord123 6y ago
  I'm just confused. I thought they're the same thing.
  - tomrod 6y ago
    One is proactive assessment by a community, the other is blind bigotry against outsiders. The inclusion of bigotry as a deciding component is the key, IMHO.
    - fnord123 6y ago
      One wants to proactively stop outsiders from joining their community. The other stops outsiders from joining their community using bigotry? Can you see why I'm confused?
      - tomrod 6y ago
        No. I may be seeing an argument of semantic similarity, but the inclusion of bigotry is the defining factor of xenophobia. Closing down a community can be due to other drivers beyond fear of outsiders.
- MisterTea 6y ago
  Depends on the community culture and what they perceive as outsider behaviour. e.g. A protestant might not be welcomed in a catholic neighborhood.
  - nine_k 6y ago
    But isn't "outgroup members are not welcome" the definition of (mild) xenophobia? Indeed, religious disagreements are a major source of it.
jbay808 6y ago
In Vancouver's case, I don't think there's a strong desire to maintain a locked down community -- at least, not among the voices who complain about run-away real estate prices. What there are complaints about are foreign investors who bid up property prices but don't move to the city, at least not before retirement age. This causes a huge disconnect between the price of land in an area, and the earning potential in that area. For people who hope to own land but don't already, it's always out of reach, because they aren't competing with their peers, and the wealthy pockets that are buying homes aren't customers of other local businesses. It's not quite the same as a cluster of unicorns driving up tech salaries to the point where teachers and nurses can't compete on the market. There are no unicorns based in Vancouver. It's hard to identify any career path, even doctor, rockstar engineer, or lawyer, that a high school graduate today could expect to follow while working in this city and be on track for home ownership when time comes to start a family. Assuming that the trend continues, that is. And if it corrects, then it's a question of who was unlucky enough to catch the knife -- because any young locals in the ownership market are going to be highly leveraged, there's no other way. That might read like xenophobia, but actual immigrants who intend to live, work, and raise families here are generally warmly welcomed and appreciated no matter where they come from. There are some people who get their signals crossed but it's a small minority.
- novok 6y ago
  Also if your an immigrant who is resident in Canada, your not subject to these taxes! It's a 'you gotta live here' tax.
  - jbay808 6y ago
    Not subject to the foreign buyer tax, yes; it's unclear that these taxes have actually solved the above issue though. For money laundering it's an acceptable cost of doing business; for others there are ways around it (hence the 20-year-old undergrads prepared to pay $1.4 million in cash that another commenter mentioned).

dimitrios1 6y ago

Placing the interests of your homeland and neighbors first over foreigners is not xenophobia.

R0b0t1 6y ago
Comment is getting downvotes but agree. If you do not band together with like-minded individuals for your common good you will be outcompeted by other people who do.
- epistasis 6y ago
  Right, and the people that banded together to profit from this are the existing homeowners and landlords in Vancouver. The foreign investors are tiny in both numbers and political power compared to Vancouver landowners as a whole, and it really was existing landowners who profited, while flying a "preserve our great culture" flag by trying to not let new buildings be built. The investors are the like-minded people who banded together to raise property values and benefit from it directly, while also exerting their will to keep new people out, or at least keep out everyone except the very wealthiest. Calling this behavior "protective" of the city is tantamount to saying that the city is only for the investors.
  - beambot 6y ago
    > The foreign investors are tiny in both numbers and political power The exact topic of this article: Small quantities of investors with different economic incentives can result in big effects. > The investors are the like-minded people who banded together I rather doubt that it was a concerted effort to band together. It's more akin to "curse of the commons": Each individual actor acting in their best interest results in emergent behavior. The solution being pursued is to change the rules to dissuade certain behaviors that negatively impact the populace as a whole.
    - epistasis 6y ago
      The effects of those small number of extra investors isn't huge however. In London it was 20% of the rise, but not most of it. It does fan flames, but there's got to be a spark to be fanned.

mistermann 6y ago

The term "xenophobia" is also a useful tool that is used by the government, the media, and individuals on social media to suppress the free discussion of very important matters. The Government of Canada has the ability to published (anonymized) data (real estate sales correlated to the buyers historic income taxes/wealth, etc) that could eliminate most of the opaqueness of what is really going on in Canadian housing markets, but they do not, despite vowing to "get to the bottom of" the situation. The media could point out that the Canadian Government has this ability but does not do it, but they do not, despite claiming to be trustworthy, unbiased reporters of the affairs that are important to the public. As is often the case, what is actually true is unjustly (and "democratically") hidden from view of the public, coverage is provided (intentionally or not) by the media, and the end result is that the populace is split into various camps who then fight among themselves. Is this situation the actual "will of the people", as we are endlessly told is what Democracy (and nothing else) delivers? I believe there is a fairly substantial amount of evidence that it is not what people want, although that sort of topic seems a bit socially taboo, so all one can do is speculate.

option 6y ago

there are plenty of sad places in this world who got rid of investors ...

mturmon 6y ago

One way to think about this is that cash is plentiful in China, but a strong social/legal system that ensures long-term, low-risk investments is "plentiful" in Canada or the US. In this sense, these foreign investors are taking advantage of a functional social/legal system that lowers risk, but in the cases documented nearby, they aren't giving back to ensure the longevity of the system. Indeed, their remotely-executed purchases increase its instability.

imtringued 6y ago

Investors bring in fresh money. The real "mystery" is why people aren't building more housing to take advantage of the demand. When you are starting a company the hardest problem by far is finding people who buy your products. In real estate it's exactly the opposite.