5 ms·

Wyoming uses a “dark money” organization to advocate for coal in other states

154 points by js2 6y ago

rgbrenner 6y ago
Wyoming produces 40% of US coal. 3x the production of WV. https://www.wsgs.wyo.gov/energy/coal-production-mining https://www.wsgs.wyo.gov/energy/coal-production-mining It's low sulfur coal from the powder river basin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_River_Basin#Coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_River_Basin#Coal Extracted using surface mining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_mining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_mining Wyoming mines: https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/images/coal.jpg/image https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/images/coal.jpg/image https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CFRP52/coal-mine-in-wyomings-powder-river-basin-CFRP52.jpg https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CFRP52/coal-mine-in-wyomings-powde...
bluedays 6y ago
I feel like this belongs on /r/nottheonion
MattDamonSpace 6y ago
Probably a decent ROI when these efforts are successful
pjc50 6y ago
Lots of pearl clutching about lobbying here simply because it's being done by a state? Wyoming has a population smaller than Luxembourg, of course it's going to be sockpuppeted by special interests.
- vmception 6y ago
  Ssssssh people might catch on
- clairity 6y ago
  > “Lots of pearl clutching...” it’s npr, so that’s to be expected. surprised they didn’t mention who was wearing masks and who wasn’t. but more to the point, a state is a semi-sovereign entity, so other states shouldn’t be subverting their industry, despite the potential direct benefits. those should be negotiated openly between state officials to prevent corrupting influences like this.
- aww_dang 6y ago
  Is it appropriate to note that NPR is funded by special interests like the Rockefeller foundation? Does the resulting politically charged coverage constitute 'election meddling'?
- stuaxo 6y ago
  Maybe just because it's lobbying by anyone in a completely non-transparent wya ? This system isn't legal in other countries, lets call it what it is - bribery.
colechristensen 6y ago
It’s only $250k per year, they can’t possibly be accomplishing that much with that money. 1 to 4 full time salaries?
- therealdrag0 6y ago
  Ya at the last 15% of the article they point this out and provide some other skeptical quotes. Made me feel duped.
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  Highly effective and successful lobbying does not need more than one skilled and connected individual.
- bobf 6y ago
  You might be surprised by the ridiculously small amount of money it takes to lobby legislators in the US. I've seen various reports over the years that have shown amounts well below $50k effectively buying deciding votes on important issues. To me, that would have otherwise seemed like an amount that might be effective at a city or state level, but it's shocking to see that being true at a federal level. One recent example that was heavily reported on was the lobbying over net neutrality. ISPs contributed $1.5 million to 273 members of Congress to support overturning net neutrality - that's less than $5500 each on average. https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2017/12/money-flows-into-net-neutrality-debate-ahead-of-fcc-vote/ https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2017/12/money-flows-into-ne...
  - andromeduck 6y ago
    Wonder what the relative size of the wind/renewable/shale/nuclear lobbies are these days.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    That low number is not a coincidence. A PAC is limited to $5,000 per candidate per year. (I'm not sure how the number there is over $5,000; it may include individual donor money as well.) The main influence of a PAC is not its money but its ability to be in the room. Registered lobbyists have much greater access. That's not about paying for it; it's about the fact that they are legally allowed to do so (you have to register if you meet with legislators frequently) and the fact that the legislators will agree to meet with them (they can take only so many meetings per day and tend to the people who talk to other powerful people). The FEC rules prevent money from being used as a bribe. It's much too low for that. The organizations do donate, because they can, but it's the access that really gives them more influence than you have.
vmception 6y ago
Its not dark money when a public records request can reveal it or if a bank can be subpoena’d or hacked for the information In my opinion Wake me up when people catch on to the fact that Monero is used
- scoopertrooper 6y ago
  Dark money has a specific definition, it's not a matter of opinion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_money
  - vmception 6y ago
    I understand that, my point still stands
gwbrooks 6y ago
As someone who fights for increased government transparency, this is all sorts of troubling. But as a former political hack? Gotta admire the strategy. And it's replicable across other industries and geographies. Broad example: Phoenix and Las Vegas (or, at a higher level, Arizona and Nevada) might like to see California squeeze businesses tighter -- it would encourage migration.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
The end of the piece is interesting to me. It basically delineates the fact that we don't know how much impact this is having and we likely can't sort it out. One the one hand, this organization has motive to claim responsibility for keeping things open that it may not have had a big role in keeping open. That's how it gets money from the state of Wyoming. On the other hand, because it is dark money, it has motive to obscure exactly what it is accomplishing and to leave doubts and questions in the minds of people who would like to think they aren't really doing much. If some parties think this is all smoke and mirrors and they aren't really doing anything, then they get to keep operating as they see fit. So, to me, this article says "This thing exists. We have no idea how much they are or are not really accomplishing. We aren't likely to get a straight answer."
- ponker 6y ago
  Nobody really has any idea how much money it takes to influence political agendas. All the corporate money in the world couldn't stop Donald Trump from getting elected and instituting his tariff, but in other cases very small amounts of money can get policies in place that vastly enrich a few insiders.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Lot of pro-Trump money around, too. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election/trump-2020-election-secret-payments-family-brad-parscale-a9642631.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-electio... There was also the proposed "Moscow Project", which Michael Cohen was convicted of lying to Federal investigators about. https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5453413/SCO-Cohen-Sentencing-Submission.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5453413/SCO-Cohen...
jamisteven 6y ago
So NPR finds this news relevant but the Biden laptop story isnt fit for public consumption? This is sickening.
adultSwim 6y ago
I'm in a facebook group, supposedly to promote climate change solutions, that I'm 99% sure is funded by the beef industry.

154 points by js2 6y ago

Wyoming produces 40% of US coal. 3x the production of WV. https://www.wsgs.wyo.gov/energy/coal-production-mining https://www.wsgs.wyo.gov/energy/coal-production-mining It's low sulfur coal from the powder river basin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_River_Basin#Coal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_River_Basin#Coal Extracted using surface mining: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_mining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_mining Wyoming mines: https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/images/coal.jpg/image https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/images/coal.jpg/image https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CFRP52/coal-mine-in-wyomings-powder-river-basin-CFRP52.jpg https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CFRP52/coal-mine-in-wyomings-powde...

bluedays 6y ago

I feel like this belongs on /r/nottheonion

MattDamonSpace 6y ago

Probably a decent ROI when these efforts are successful

pjc50 6y ago

Lots of pearl clutching about lobbying here simply because it's being done by a state? Wyoming has a population smaller than Luxembourg, of course it's going to be sockpuppeted by special interests.

vmception 6y ago
Ssssssh people might catch on
clairity 6y ago
> “Lots of pearl clutching...” it’s npr, so that’s to be expected. surprised they didn’t mention who was wearing masks and who wasn’t. but more to the point, a state is a semi-sovereign entity, so other states shouldn’t be subverting their industry, despite the potential direct benefits. those should be negotiated openly between state officials to prevent corrupting influences like this.
aww_dang 6y ago
Is it appropriate to note that NPR is funded by special interests like the Rockefeller foundation? Does the resulting politically charged coverage constitute 'election meddling'?
stuaxo 6y ago
Maybe just because it's lobbying by anyone in a completely non-transparent wya ? This system isn't legal in other countries, lets call it what it is - bribery.

colechristensen 6y ago

It’s only $250k per year, they can’t possibly be accomplishing that much with that money. 1 to 4 full time salaries?

therealdrag0 6y ago
Ya at the last 15% of the article they point this out and provide some other skeptical quotes. Made me feel duped.
PeterStuer 6y ago
Highly effective and successful lobbying does not need more than one skilled and connected individual.
bobf 6y ago
You might be surprised by the ridiculously small amount of money it takes to lobby legislators in the US. I've seen various reports over the years that have shown amounts well below $50k effectively buying deciding votes on important issues. To me, that would have otherwise seemed like an amount that might be effective at a city or state level, but it's shocking to see that being true at a federal level. One recent example that was heavily reported on was the lobbying over net neutrality. ISPs contributed $1.5 million to 273 members of Congress to support overturning net neutrality - that's less than $5500 each on average. https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2017/12/money-flows-into-net-neutrality-debate-ahead-of-fcc-vote/ https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2017/12/money-flows-into-ne...
- andromeduck 6y ago
  Wonder what the relative size of the wind/renewable/shale/nuclear lobbies are these days.
- jfengel 6y ago
  That low number is not a coincidence. A PAC is limited to $5,000 per candidate per year. (I'm not sure how the number there is over $5,000; it may include individual donor money as well.) The main influence of a PAC is not its money but its ability to be in the room. Registered lobbyists have much greater access. That's not about paying for it; it's about the fact that they are legally allowed to do so (you have to register if you meet with legislators frequently) and the fact that the legislators will agree to meet with them (they can take only so many meetings per day and tend to the people who talk to other powerful people). The FEC rules prevent money from being used as a bribe. It's much too low for that. The organizations do donate, because they can, but it's the access that really gives them more influence than you have.

vmception 6y ago

Its not dark money when a public records request can reveal it or if a bank can be subpoena’d or hacked for the information In my opinion Wake me up when people catch on to the fact that Monero is used

scoopertrooper 6y ago
Dark money has a specific definition, it's not a matter of opinion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_money https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_money
- vmception 6y ago
  I understand that, my point still stands

gwbrooks 6y ago

As someone who fights for increased government transparency, this is all sorts of troubling. But as a former political hack? Gotta admire the strategy. And it's replicable across other industries and geographies. Broad example: Phoenix and Las Vegas (or, at a higher level, Arizona and Nevada) might like to see California squeeze businesses tighter -- it would encourage migration.

DoreenMichele 6y ago

The end of the piece is interesting to me. It basically delineates the fact that we don't know how much impact this is having and we likely can't sort it out. One the one hand, this organization has motive to claim responsibility for keeping things open that it may not have had a big role in keeping open. That's how it gets money from the state of Wyoming. On the other hand, because it is dark money, it has motive to obscure exactly what it is accomplishing and to leave doubts and questions in the minds of people who would like to think they aren't really doing much. If some parties think this is all smoke and mirrors and they aren't really doing anything, then they get to keep operating as they see fit. So, to me, this article says "This thing exists. We have no idea how much they are or are not really accomplishing. We aren't likely to get a straight answer."

ponker 6y ago
Nobody really has any idea how much money it takes to influence political agendas. All the corporate money in the world couldn't stop Donald Trump from getting elected and instituting his tariff, but in other cases very small amounts of money can get policies in place that vastly enrich a few insiders.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Lot of pro-Trump money around, too. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election/trump-2020-election-secret-payments-family-brad-parscale-a9642631.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-electio... There was also the proposed "Moscow Project", which Michael Cohen was convicted of lying to Federal investigators about. https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5453413/SCO-Cohen-Sentencing-Submission.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5453413/SCO-Cohen...

jamisteven 6y ago

So NPR finds this news relevant but the Biden laptop story isnt fit for public consumption? This is sickening.

adultSwim 6y ago

I'm in a facebook group, supposedly to promote climate change solutions, that I'm 99% sure is funded by the beef industry.